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On October 24 2012 10:06 Nabes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:04 Laryleprakon wrote:On October 24 2012 09:50 Fionn wrote:
Is the NBA going to die because the NFL is four/five times bigger?
The whole argument is stupid. Its sad more people don't understand this  except the fact that the NBA has nothing to improve upon where there is a million fixes for starcraft 2. bad analogy is bad.
well this is just plain false. the NBA has a ton to improve on.
On October 24 2012 10:10 Serpico wrote:
The NBA is actually struggling more and more over time....but it did have a golden era.
eh not really. things are on the upswing for the NBA. Its not where it was in the 80s and 90s with Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley and so on. But it is in a much better position than it was 10 years ago. The newest CBA is much better financially for the NBA.
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it all boils down to that people like destiny are willing to step one step back to maybe open room to step two steps forward.
people like idra, incontrol, artosis and doa are not willing to do that.
they feel too comfortable right now.
and one thing:
if activision is responsible for financing the sc2 department, when they see that there is a lot of bad press going on they might want to step it up to save it.
when they see that everyone is loving each other in that scene and everyone is hyped for hots, why should they change anything ?
and that incontrol rant on destinys post was really embarrassing.
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On October 24 2012 10:22 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:20 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 10:19 CajunMan wrote:On October 24 2012 10:16 Fionn wrote:
So Blizzard is doing the WCS and has put in tons of money. The finals are already sold out and have 10,000+ tickets sold.
Do they need to fill out a 100,000 seat stadium? No but what is being said is you can do better with little effort. Why is pushing for the best looked so down upon? 10,000 viewers... that'll do I think we will just stop here yep. What are you trying to argue? Nobody is saying SC2 shouldn't improve so that whole argument can be laid to rest already, it's getting old listening to the same excuse from that side of the fence. So why are you arguing messaging blizzard and suggesting fixes is bad? Please lay this to rest already it's getting old listening to people say they are all for growth but are now getting mad when people message blizzard and tweet at them to fix problems.
Nobody's arguing that critcizing blizzard is bad. The idea that the game is dead in the water and the only thing the community can do is yell at blizzard is blatantly wrong
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The point is that current communication methods with Blizzard are not working, something everyone on the show readily admitted, yet none of them were willing to take any more drastic measures to attempt to get Blizzard's attention, and actively stomped on Destiny's ass for trying to do so. Competitive SC2 is a product like any other, and if you just accept that you are unable to compete going forward you might as well pack up your shit and move on to something else. Without Blizzard making changes, SC2 cannot compete, not in any real sense of the word.
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On October 24 2012 10:13 Hammer442 wrote:
I do not understand why, if everyone accepts Blizzard isn't holding up their end, no one is happy with the support, and that current communication methods aren't working, there isn't some larger movement within the professional SC2 scene to go about it a different way. Just accepting the status quo is essentially giving up on ever being competitive within E-Sports.
Maybe it can work in a way where people are still supporting the SC2 industry, as well as spending time reminding Blizzard of how poorly they've done. As they mentioned in the show, they would agree with everything Destiny said if it stopped at the Blizzard bashing, but he mentioned that they were going to kill their own game because the community's collective efforts aren't going to be enough.
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there a link to this episode?
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On October 24 2012 10:22 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:20 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 10:19 CajunMan wrote:On October 24 2012 10:16 Fionn wrote:
So Blizzard is doing the WCS and has put in tons of money. The finals are already sold out and have 10,000+ tickets sold.
Do they need to fill out a 100,000 seat stadium? No but what is being said is you can do better with little effort. Why is pushing for the best looked so down upon? 10,000 viewers... that'll do I think we will just stop here yep. What are you trying to argue? Nobody is saying SC2 shouldn't improve so that whole argument can be laid to rest already, it's getting old listening to the same excuse from that side of the fence. So why are you arguing messaging blizzard and suggesting fixes is bad? Please lay this to rest already it's getting old listening to people say they are all for growth but are now getting mad when people message blizzard and tweet at them to fix problems.
Wow...you just listened to an hour of this topic, and you still didn't get it? No one has an issue with telling Blizzard there are areas to fix.
It's the sky-is-falling mentality, the mass "Save HotS" crap, and an entire forum about how the SC2 is apparently dying or half dead that's complete bullshit.
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On October 24 2012 10:21 JPSke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:13 Hammer442 wrote:
Did you watch the show? They never accepted or defended Blizzard they just said Blizzard isn't going to do shit to fix it so complaining on twitter and sending the community into a state of panic is dumb.
Yes, I watched the show. And yes, I know Blizzard, to this point, has been unresponsive. In fact my post right before that one was one telling people Blizzard probably wasn't going to do anything. But to hear the people who do have influence, who are well known, and who are directly impacted by the way Blizzard is going about their business basically just accept it....I mean come on. For me as a fan to say "Yeah, Blizzard sucks now, shit isn't going to change" is one thing, but for the people who deal with just how shitty Blizzard is every day to accept that it isn't going to change makes things even worse. If the people who could have an impact and actually get Blizzard's attention have given up, then there really isn't much hope for the game going forward. I do not understand why, if everyone accepts Blizzard isn't holding up their end, no one is happy with the support, and that current communication methods aren't working, there isn't some larger movement within the professional SC2 scene to go about it a different way. Just accepting the status quo is essentially giving up on ever being competitive within E-Sports.
People truly have no idea what the end product of hots is going to be though, we have had a sneak peak of a lot of the features being added(Clan support, resume from replay, unranked play etc) and yet people are basing their arguments off of features such as these not being in the game. Yes it has been 2 years for these things to be implemented, however people paid for the game and they got what they paid for at the time. Blizzard does not have endless funds for sc2 like riot does for LoL because it is fed off of game sales not micro transactions.
IF Hots rolls by and these features didn't get implemented when they were promised(AGAIN) then a community uproar could have been unnecessary, however i see no benefit to what has happened in the last week.
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On October 24 2012 10:24 walklightwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:22 CajunMan wrote:On October 24 2012 10:20 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 10:19 CajunMan wrote:On October 24 2012 10:16 Fionn wrote:
So Blizzard is doing the WCS and has put in tons of money. The finals are already sold out and have 10,000+ tickets sold.
Do they need to fill out a 100,000 seat stadium? No but what is being said is you can do better with little effort. Why is pushing for the best looked so down upon? 10,000 viewers... that'll do I think we will just stop here yep. What are you trying to argue? Nobody is saying SC2 shouldn't improve so that whole argument can be laid to rest already, it's getting old listening to the same excuse from that side of the fence. So why are you arguing messaging blizzard and suggesting fixes is bad? Please lay this to rest already it's getting old listening to people say they are all for growth but are now getting mad when people message blizzard and tweet at them to fix problems. Nobody's arguing that critcizing blizzard is bad. The idea that the game is dead in the water and the only thing the community can do is yell at blizzard is blatantly wrong
I never said the game was dead in my first post I said I disagree with it being even dieing. To say that it is wrong to yell at blizzard is wrong because they are the ones who can solve a lot of these problems a lot faster than anyone else and can only help.
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On October 24 2012 10:10 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:09 bluQ wrote:On October 24 2012 10:04 IdrA wrote:On October 24 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:On October 24 2012 09:56 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On October 24 2012 09:51 Silver777 wrote:On October 24 2012 09:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 24 2012 09:43 Silver777 wrote:
I find it funny that on multiple occasions Incontrol and Idra are involved in an argument with someone with so-so points and no real facts, but then just bash the person and everyone on the show is like "fuck ya we showed that bitch". What is the point to even bring people like this on if you already know they lack facts for the argument just so you can bash them on it and insult them then all LoL together when they get mad and insult you back. Are you seriously suggesting Destiny actually added anything decent to that argument? Did you even read what I said...they already known he CAN'T add anything to the argument(its already all out in a post), but they have him come on (this occured a few times on SOTG, avilo was the most recent), then it has ALWAYS ended up with Greg ridiculing the person and saying they are complete shit, everyone on the show agrees and says passive-agresive stuff or just straight up ridicules them as well, eventually the person gets so mad from the insults they insult back, they then get removed from the call either by choice or not. It doesn't even make sense to have the person come on if you are going to insult them, even if their arguments are poor and you already know their argument beforehand. I don't think you were actually listening to what was said by any of the parties involved, or even paying attention. Greg didn't ridicule Destiny, no one in the show jumped together and started insulting Destiny, no one ridiculed him. They ridiculed the way he presented his argument. except for the part where they pounced on the opportunity to say "go back to LoL then" (that was the moment that set him off, because it was even less of a legitimate discussion than before at that point) WOOPS. looks like a bunch of people who skip the "getting an education" part of life to play video games aren't equipped to debate a subject like this. we discussed it, his entire argument was a strawman. no one was defending blizzard. if anything we were more negative about blizzard than he was. and he just kept repeating the same things except louder and angrier. if he thinks that blizzard has to save the game otherwise we might as well switch to lol, he should. cuz they arent going to he was going off the deep end, he needed to be told to shut up. And it was pretty painful to watch how Desitny(and Painuser) don't get the fact that blizzard WON'T do a shit. So lemme get this straight. The solution then is to accept the fact that blizzard won't do shit and just deal with it? rofl...
NO! How can you say "Lemme get this straight" and then proceed to not get it at all? No one in the show ever said that this is the solution, no one. If you would have listened at all, you would know that too.
One possible solution and the solution they were advertising, is to go on and make the game bigger through more and better tournaments, through support of sponsors, through more media coverage and so on. Basically everything we, the community, can possibly do to promote the game. Not counting on Blizzard to fix everything, because obviously they won't, but doing it ourselves in every possible way.
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Even though Destiny's way of going about this whole thing is not the best way, I do see his point of view as well as the others.
What can the community do when Blizzard controls almost everything? And at the end of the day they're the ones implementing the real changes in the game. The most the community can do is pressure Blizzard into implementing changes and like the entire cast of ITG and many other pro players have said, the needed changes are not being addressed or are coming really late.
If the community has already given up on Blizzard making those changes, then you can consider that SC2's potential to grow to be heavily decreased. As Painuser said, the pro players must find a way to work with Blizzard instead of giving up on them like Idra and Incontrol have. Community cannot implement changes to the game. Those changes that are being asked for are not unreasonable and make the experience of playing SC2 much more friendly. One of Destiny's point is that, you grow community in numbers and in return rate if you make the game more accessible. Not meaning accessible as in making it easier to play, but in making BattleNet feel more lively rather than the isolated experience it feels like. Things like clan support, chat rooms, etc.
Who can implement those changes? The community or Blizzard?
The more people Blizzard can get SC2 to appeal to, the larger potential audience the e-sports size and the larger the scene grows. That also means more competition and that also means tougher competition, higher levels of play. So, a lot is actually in Blizzard's court and Destiny is right about that. Pro players and the rest of the community can only do so much to get more people to watch.
Lastly, DJWheat, Idra, Incontrol, and Destiny all presented their points in the most gross and disgusting way. The first one to ridicule someone was Incontrol and then it was all a mess afterwards. The only one who had any sense and respect for what anyone said was Painuser. This argument was incredibly hard to listen to and it was unfortunate to have ended the way it did, but no one can say that they didn't see it coming.
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On October 24 2012 10:26 Shirohige wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:10 rysecake wrote:On October 24 2012 10:09 bluQ wrote:On October 24 2012 10:04 IdrA wrote:On October 24 2012 09:59 yeastiality wrote:On October 24 2012 09:56 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On October 24 2012 09:51 Silver777 wrote:On October 24 2012 09:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 24 2012 09:43 Silver777 wrote:
I find it funny that on multiple occasions Incontrol and Idra are involved in an argument with someone with so-so points and no real facts, but then just bash the person and everyone on the show is like "fuck ya we showed that bitch". What is the point to even bring people like this on if you already know they lack facts for the argument just so you can bash them on it and insult them then all LoL together when they get mad and insult you back. Are you seriously suggesting Destiny actually added anything decent to that argument? Did you even read what I said...they already known he CAN'T add anything to the argument(its already all out in a post), but they have him come on (this occured a few times on SOTG, avilo was the most recent), then it has ALWAYS ended up with Greg ridiculing the person and saying they are complete shit, everyone on the show agrees and says passive-agresive stuff or just straight up ridicules them as well, eventually the person gets so mad from the insults they insult back, they then get removed from the call either by choice or not. It doesn't even make sense to have the person come on if you are going to insult them, even if their arguments are poor and you already know their argument beforehand. I don't think you were actually listening to what was said by any of the parties involved, or even paying attention. Greg didn't ridicule Destiny, no one in the show jumped together and started insulting Destiny, no one ridiculed him. They ridiculed the way he presented his argument. except for the part where they pounced on the opportunity to say "go back to LoL then" (that was the moment that set him off, because it was even less of a legitimate discussion than before at that point) WOOPS. looks like a bunch of people who skip the "getting an education" part of life to play video games aren't equipped to debate a subject like this. we discussed it, his entire argument was a strawman. no one was defending blizzard. if anything we were more negative about blizzard than he was. and he just kept repeating the same things except louder and angrier. if he thinks that blizzard has to save the game otherwise we might as well switch to lol, he should. cuz they arent going to he was going off the deep end, he needed to be told to shut up. And it was pretty painful to watch how Desitny(and Painuser) don't get the fact that blizzard WON'T do a shit. So lemme get this straight. The solution then is to accept the fact that blizzard won't do shit and just deal with it? rofl... NO! How can you say "Lemme get this straight" and then proceed to not get it at all? No one in the show ever said that this is the solution, no one. If you would have listened at all, you would know that too. One possible solution and the solution they were advertising, is to go on and make the game bigger through more and better tournaments, through support of sponsors, through more media coverage and so on. Basically everything we, the community, can possibly do to promote the game. Not counting on Blizzard to fix everything, because obviously they won't, but doing it ourselves in every possible way.
So instead of doing what you said as we currently are AND trying to get the games creator more involved to fix in game issues we are just gonna give up? Their argument is give up because give up.
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So a guy who hasn't been relevant in the scene in quite awhile outside of his own personal drama goes on a show to argue about the scene with two businessmen (one of which has behind the scenes access to real viewership stats), a pro player, and PainUser. Yeah, that was really going to accomplish something. Even knowing that I really didn't expect him to do what he did at the end there. That was so cowardly. Heh.
On October 24 2012 10:15 OblivionMage wrote:
All five of them are totally out of touch, not mentioning Warcraft 3 (thus DotA, LoL, DOTA 2) even once.
Personally, I'm not convinced HotS will sell well at all. That may be a good thing, if it jolts Activision Blizzard into taking a different approach to the game and to the genre.
Please don't link WC3 to LoL just because it technically spawned Dota. WC3 deserves more than that.
HotS will sell well, I have no doubt of that, and neither do most other people, what's far more important and in question is how well HotS changes outside of competitive stuff will retain the more casual players.
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On October 24 2012 10:13 Nabes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:12 neurosx wrote:On October 24 2012 10:09 JPSke wrote:
As a fan of SC2 this show was incredibly depressing.
The fact that you guys are willing to accept Blizzard's bullshit and go so far as to take a dump on people who are tired of this ridiculous lack of responsiveness.....I dunno. You guys are building your careers around this game, a game that could be promoted and much more accessible to more people if only Blizzard would hold up their end of the bargain, and yet you just accept that your complaints accomplish nothing. It seems like you've accepted that what you consider to be the right way to interact with Blizzard in the hopes of making progress isn't going to work, yet you are actively shitting on people who believe its time to take a more proactive approach. And yes, I know, tweeting at Blizzard isn't going to do it. Neither is a big post on Reddit. But if all the big people within the SC2 scene get together and demand change? That might have an impact. But no, you guys are just going to continue on, accept the pitiful support Blizzard is giving this game, and let the game stagnate.
This community is the best competitive community in existence, and the fact that it continues to decline in comparison to others primarily due to those games making advances and focusing on their customers...it's sad. You say the negativity is harmful, but it is more harmful to just accept this. I promise you if all the influential members within the community banded together to get Blizzard to be a little more responsive it would energize everyone, it would be a story, it would grow the community just by pulling it together with a common cause. And yet you guys seem to think any public sort of complaint, which is honestly the only way to apply any sort of pressure whatsoever to Blizzard, is the wrong way to go about doing things. I just don't get it.
I've been here since SC2 launched, and I watch a lot more than I play now. But if the community is just going to accept being second rate it may be time for me to move on. I just don't understand how the people most directly impacted by the situation are willing to take such a laissez faire attitude. In Brood War putting your head down and saying "we'll make it work" was one thing, but E-Sports has arrived, and accepting that SC2 is going to be a minor player going forward in the scene just because Blizzard won't get off their ass and support the game is incomprehensible to me. You can bash Destiny for crying wolf, but at least the guy is willing to state that this is a real problem, one that has a major impact on the viability of SC2 going forward. It's time someone said it, even if he didn't go about doing it the way you would have. The thing you don't get is that, there could be a forum post with 4500 pages, they still wouldn't do shit about it so the argument is moot from the beginning. WE CAN'T HOPE FOR BLIZZARD TO FIX IT. So what do you suggest we as a community do? we already have high quality tournaments, what else is there to do?
There is plenty to do. Tournaments are far from perfect. Coverage is far from perfect. We have a great base right now. But there is still work to do. Its about building on that base, perfecting what we are doing.
Just because LoL is bigger doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Its a joke that Destiny even talks about it that way. And talking about Dota.... I love Dota, but it has a ways to go until it is on sc2's level. Yeah they got great viewership for TI2. Half from China though. And without China for the SL3 finals, arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament right now, they had 60k viewers. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that EG pays Stephano as much as their entire Dota 2 squad actually.
Every esport has a ton of work to do. I think a lot of people see what Riot is doing since they control everything and hopes that Blizzard just does it cause its easier that way.
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really nice show tonight guys
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On October 24 2012 10:30 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:13 Nabes wrote:On October 24 2012 10:12 neurosx wrote:On October 24 2012 10:09 JPSke wrote:
As a fan of SC2 this show was incredibly depressing.
The fact that you guys are willing to accept Blizzard's bullshit and go so far as to take a dump on people who are tired of this ridiculous lack of responsiveness.....I dunno. You guys are building your careers around this game, a game that could be promoted and much more accessible to more people if only Blizzard would hold up their end of the bargain, and yet you just accept that your complaints accomplish nothing. It seems like you've accepted that what you consider to be the right way to interact with Blizzard in the hopes of making progress isn't going to work, yet you are actively shitting on people who believe its time to take a more proactive approach. And yes, I know, tweeting at Blizzard isn't going to do it. Neither is a big post on Reddit. But if all the big people within the SC2 scene get together and demand change? That might have an impact. But no, you guys are just going to continue on, accept the pitiful support Blizzard is giving this game, and let the game stagnate.
This community is the best competitive community in existence, and the fact that it continues to decline in comparison to others primarily due to those games making advances and focusing on their customers...it's sad. You say the negativity is harmful, but it is more harmful to just accept this. I promise you if all the influential members within the community banded together to get Blizzard to be a little more responsive it would energize everyone, it would be a story, it would grow the community just by pulling it together with a common cause. And yet you guys seem to think any public sort of complaint, which is honestly the only way to apply any sort of pressure whatsoever to Blizzard, is the wrong way to go about doing things. I just don't get it.
I've been here since SC2 launched, and I watch a lot more than I play now. But if the community is just going to accept being second rate it may be time for me to move on. I just don't understand how the people most directly impacted by the situation are willing to take such a laissez faire attitude. In Brood War putting your head down and saying "we'll make it work" was one thing, but E-Sports has arrived, and accepting that SC2 is going to be a minor player going forward in the scene just because Blizzard won't get off their ass and support the game is incomprehensible to me. You can bash Destiny for crying wolf, but at least the guy is willing to state that this is a real problem, one that has a major impact on the viability of SC2 going forward. It's time someone said it, even if he didn't go about doing it the way you would have. The thing you don't get is that, there could be a forum post with 4500 pages, they still wouldn't do shit about it so the argument is moot from the beginning. WE CAN'T HOPE FOR BLIZZARD TO FIX IT. So what do you suggest we as a community do? we already have high quality tournaments, what else is there to do? There is plenty to do. Tournaments are far from perfect. Coverage is far from perfect. We have a great base right now. But there is still work to do. Its about building on that base, perfecting what we are doing. Just because LoL is bigger doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Its a joke that Destiny even talks about it that way. And talking about Dota.... I love Dota, but it has a ways to go until it is on sc2's level. Yeah they got great viewership for TI2. Half from China though. And without China for the SL3 finals, arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament right now, they had 60k viewers. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that EG pays Stephano as much as their entire Dota 2 squad actually. Every esport has a ton of work to do. I think a lot of people see what Riot is doing since they control everything and hopes that Blizzard just does it cause its easier that way.
This is the point. There is so much more that people can do than say "If Blizzard doesn't fix this or this, SC2 is dead".
Yes you can crticize Blizzard, and you should if you don't like something, but there are other things that everybody involved in this community can do. Which is the crux of what IdrA and Incontrol were saying.
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yes everyone, it would be great if blizzard made shit happen. they havent. tweeting #savehots will not make it happen. if you want to be constructive you either need to come up with a way to make blizzard care and implement some of these changes, or you need to look outside blizzard.
just posting saying that the game is going to die without blizzards support is not only unproductive, but counterproductive as it gets people set on the idea and causes a bunch of negative publicity.
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On October 24 2012 10:27 superpanda27 wrote:
Even though Destiny's way of going about this whole thing is not the best way, I do see his point of view as well as the others.
What can the community do when Blizzard controls almost everything? And at the end of the day they're the ones implementing the real changes in the game. The most the community can do is pressure Blizzard into implementing changes and like the entire cast of ITG and many other pro players have said, the needed changes are not being addressed or are coming really late.
If the community has already given up on Blizzard making those changes, then you can consider that SC2's potential to grow to be heavily decreased. As Painuser said, the pro players must find a way to work with Blizzard instead of giving up on them like Idra and Incontrol have. Community cannot implement changes to the game. Those changes that are being asked for are not unreasonable and make the experience of playing SC2 much more friendly. One of Destiny's point is that, you grow community in numbers and in return rate if you make the game more accessible. Not meaning accessible as in making it easier to play, but in making BattleNet feel more lively rather than the isolated experience it feels like. Things like clan support, chat rooms, etc.
Who can implement those changes? The community or Blizzard?
The more people Blizzard can get SC2 to appeal to, the larger potential audience the e-sports size and the larger the scene grows. That also means more competition and that also means tougher competition, higher levels of play. So, a lot is actually in Blizzard's court and Destiny is right about that. Pro players and the rest of the community can only do so much to get more people to watch.
Lastly, DJWheat, Idra, Incontrol, and Destiny all presented their points in the most gross and disgusting way. The first one to ridicule someone was Incontrol and then it was all a mess afterwards. The only one who had any sense and respect for what anyone said was Painuser. This argument was incredibly hard to listen to and it was unfortunate to have ended the way it did, but no one can say that they didn't see it coming.
Yes, exactly. Something that may need to be considered as well is that Idra and Incontrol are all right (financially) with SC2 being the way it is, but there are tons more people who would greatly benefit from having a bunch more eyeballs in the game -- and Destiny was saying that the only ones who could really implement some of the fundamental features that made BW more socially attractive, is Blizzard.
I also agree that the argument was done poorly, but it is to be expected because people are very passionate about what they believe in. I can live with that.
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On October 24 2012 10:23 kinglemon wrote: it all boils down to that people like destiny are willing to step one step back to maybe open room to step two steps forward. people like idra, incontrol, artosis and doa are not willing to do that. they feel too comfortable right now. and one thing: if activision is responsible for financing the sc2 department, when they see that there is a lot of bad press going on they might want to step it up to save it. when they see that everyone is loving each other in that scene and everyone is hyped for hots, why should they change anything ? and that incontrol rant on destinys post was really embarassing. No, that actually is not what is all boils down to. And no the rant wasn't embarrassing, it actually was spot on, but delivered in a humorous way. If you don't like the humor, that's ok, you don't have to.
What it REALLY boils down to was mentioned multiple times during the show and I don't understand how so many people don't notice that. walklightwhat summed it up in his post here:
On October 24 2012 10:24 walklightwhat wrote:
Nobody's arguing that critcizing blizzard is bad. The idea that the game is dead in the water and the only thing the community can do is yell at blizzard is blatantly wrong
That is the whole discussion in a nutshell. That's it.
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EPT
