EPTBut storm drops on worker-lines could be good.
Why Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 5
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
But storm drops on worker-lines could be good. | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:24 Reborn8u wrote: Look at AA dps. Stalkers have a much lower dps than hydras or marines another big reason, other than the health of the actual prism/ov/medevac, that prisms seem so fragile. Also, Protoss simply doesn't have any long range anti air like the thor, viking, or corruptor. All of these factors combine to make drops against protoss more viable than protoss dropping the other races. Also, because zerg and terran are always worried about colossus they are usually making sure they head towards tech to produce vikings or corruptors. This is also what makes protoss air difficult to win with, and why carriers are so rarely cost effective. This is a good point, actually, and a big reason why they're underused. Stalkers don't down aircraft nearly as quickly as Hydras or Marines, and Vikings/Mutas/Corruptors are really good at hunting down and killing them. Another reason they're underused is that you just don't get them in quantity because of where they are on the tech tree. As a Zerg, you will ALWAYS have overlords around that you can load up. As a Terran, you want medivacs to heal your army. As Protoss, you only need a probe with your army to provide the extra warp-in reinforcements that otherwise could only be provided by a warp prism. And there isn't really a point in getting more of them than the 1 you want to drop with, as that is cutting into your Colossus build time. | ||
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Ryrmidon
Canada371 Posts
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
however storm drop harass seems to be very powerful and underused, basically its a better version of baneling drop and if used correcty would leave virtually no signs for the opponent to react to until the mineral line is dead | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:32 Ryrmidon wrote: I found it strange that you completly neglected the fact that warp prisms can warp in units in your anaylsis. it cost 200 min. Thats no gas. If you build and extra robo just for warp prisms then they are cheaper than drop ships. Not only that you can continue to warp in units. to reienforce. Whenever I face warpprisms they are used to warp in units (usually) dts in my base and the warp prism which arrived empty. leaves with the units they warped in. It not underpowered just underused. It`s capabilities far exceed the drops of the other races. If you have to build an extra robo for the warp prisms, then you're going to have to not build something else, unless you are very late game. Going with an empty warp prism and then warping in 4 units and escaping isn't really an advantage. If anything, that works pretty much the same as all other drops. Really, warping in more units than the warp prism can carry isn't that great, since you end up giving free kills. I can see mass warp-in with WP being incredibly useful against immobile armies, though. | ||
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
If so, you could start building say, a DT Shrine or some other secret tech in the corner of the map immediately with Warp Prism power, instead of waiting to use a pylon down there. If not, of course you could always start building a pylon at the same time as the tech building, but still just a thought. I do think that if Warp Prisms were either faster, or had a slightly higher cargo capacity, they would be used more, especially with Zealots. Thinking back to BW, the only units that were ever practically in a Shuttle, were DTs, Zealots (for Zealot bombs), and Reavers. Reavers are gone, and DT drops are not as neccessary because of Warp-ins, but I don't see why more players don't do Zealots bombs against Terran siege lines. Granted Terrans go Mech against Protoss much more rarely, and if they are going Mech, the drop ship can be easily taken out by Thors, Vikings, or Marines with quick reactions. Also, I think that while the WP is not as effective as the other drop ships are in small drops, in late-game when Protoss has 20+ Warp Gates, WP doom drops or 'doom warp-ins' may be very effective, after losing a large army, the Protoss could mass warp-in the opponents base instead of warping in back at home. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On the other hand, we have a speed upgrade that puts us on par with carriers.  | ||
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EclipZe
United States39 Posts
1. Protect my collossi. 2. Protect my collossi. The current game plan of most protoss has been to protect the power units. It is much harder to replace robo or stargate units so a strong emphasis is creating that meat shield to allow my big units to fight another fight. As a general rule, most drops are most effective as a dual pronged assault. Whether dropping in two places at once or dropping and engaging the main army, the effectiveness of a drop is useless if the opponent knows its coming, or while their army is close to the drop point. If I am in an engagement or preparing for an engagement, pertaining to my goals, I would prefer to warp in my units close to the "deathball." It got that name for a reason. You don't see a protoss with part of his units in one area and a small group somewhere else. The warp prism itself is fine. The mentality of protoss currently is my best army is better than your best army, and a warp prism diverts food away from that goal. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:40 mikyaJ wrote: Question: Do buildings that act as a requirement (ex: Robotics Bay for Colossus) still fulfill the requirement if they are unpowered? Yes. | ||
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Moki.tv
United States38 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:26 ypslala wrote: a 200/200 bio army + medvacs/vikings against colossus/storms/chargelots/blinkstalker is not equal in strengh? right. add some ghosts, ravens, mech/thors. ghost tech is quick and cheap and a killer against protoss. zerg has it way harder, i agree in this point. The trouble is, if u branch off in tech those units are going to be underdeveloped in terms of upgrades. Toss upgrades effect EVERY ground unit. T needs to spend twice as much on upgrades vs Toss, maybe more if you upgrade vikings as well. You should see how fast 0/0 thors die to a 3/3 toss army | ||
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mavsfan0041
United States306 Posts
Build two warp prisms, load with 8 zealots, fly to opponents base, unload, warp in 4,5,6 stalkers behind it. That's a pretty potent force that can be in the back of your base with like 10 seconds of arriving. While two warp prisms may take time out of the robo, they cost no gas. So during that time you could be using your gas to tech down other paths like *gasp* HTs! Something not colossus. And once your warp prisms are done, you can gently push out immortals or colossus if you don't want just HTs. Main Point: Get more than one warp prism, use gas on other things. | ||
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Kolvacs
Canada1203 Posts
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:54 mavsfan0041 wrote: Ok I don't play toss so I might be a little off but this is my take on it. Build two warp prisms, load with 8 zealots, fly to opponents base, unload, warp in 4,5,6 stalkers behind it. That's a pretty potent force that can be in the back of your base with like 10 seconds of arriving. While two warp prisms may take time out of the robo, they cost no gas. So during that time you could be using your gas to tech down other paths like *gasp* HTs! Something not colossus. And once your warp prisms are done, you can gently push out immortals or colossus if you don't want just HTs. Main Point: Get more than one warp prism, use gas on other things. And if they just decide to attack our main? refer to the post about protecting our colosus They do lost of damage, but are essentially made of glass (not unlike the warp prism). The thing about a protoss army, is that a couple units missing from the army can mean the difference between marginally winning the battle and getting absolutely roflstomped | ||
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EclipZe
United States39 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:54 mavsfan0041 wrote: Ok I don't play toss so I might be a little off but this is my take on it. Build two warp prisms, load with 8 zealots, fly to opponents base, unload, warp in 4,5,6 stalkers behind it. That's a pretty potent force that can be in the back of your base with like 10 seconds of arriving. While two warp prisms may take time out of the robo, they cost no gas. So during that time you could be using your gas to tech down other paths like *gasp* HTs! Something not colossus. And once your warp prisms are done, you can gently push out immortals or colossus if you don't want just HTs. Main Point: Get more than one warp prism, use gas on other things. Of course that would mean that you have a robo bay not producing anything for a while or two robos making two warp prisms leaving you vulnerable while they are not making collossus. And you'd have to have your tech tree up to HT including twilight council and HT archives, then you'd have to have storm upgraded for HT to be useful then you'd have to have them up long enough because the amulet is gone. So this means this option is only available late game and while the force is formidable, the late game army of any opponent will be up to the task.... Crippling the death ball of 8 zealots and 4 - 6 stalkers... | ||
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aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:57 Roxy wrote: And if they just decide to attack our main? refer to the post about protecting our colosus They do lost of damage, but are essentially made of glass (not unlike the warp prism). The thing about a protoss army, is that a couple units missing from the army can mean the difference between marginally winning the battle and getting absolutely roflstomped and this isnt true for the pother races? lol. everybody takes a risk when dropping | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/LRFda.png) The Warp Prism 1. Hit Points Different races have different units - you are correct; if they were all made the same, the game would be pretty ridiculous. The warp prism can WARP IN units - an added benefit that is balanced with it's fragility. With the upgrade it becomes faster than the medivac and an overlord with speed; again different units have different features - comparing them across races is redundant. 2. Cost & Production Value I cannot imagine the terrible amount of threads that appear when warp prisms cost gas as well; especially being Protoss, having a mineral sink isn't such a terrible idea. Being able to produce something that doesn't cost gas is pretty amazing for Protoss so i would argue that 200/0 is better than 100/100 - but again, comparing units across races is very dangerous. However, the Warp Prism is made from the Robotics, taking away crucial time that an Immortal or Colossi could be building at. My point is that from the Protoss' perspective, making a Warp Prism even to start with is a choice that might come back and bite them later in the game. This entire game is based upon decision making; if i make a round of medivacs, or a round of drones and my viking or army count is off, i will lose. It is an RTS, the S stands for strategy. I understand your precious robo build time is important, but as the game progressed, drop a second robo? If you are going down that tech path, have an extra production facility? The "opportunity cost" argument applies equally to zerg with every round of larva. 4. Cargo Capacity If you don't have the micro to shift queue commands, or drop, power field and warp in before the prism goes down - you shouldn't be using it or you are dropping in a seriously silly spot. Medivacs go down pretty quick as well, but if you drop in a strategic location it can be deadly. I agree, warp prisms are fragile, but that is an element of using that unit. It simply requires more control, which i believe is a good thing as it raises the skill ceiling of the game. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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Snarra
Denmark94 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:42 MonsieurGrimm wrote: Well one thing to note is that Warp Prisms with speed are ridiculously fast. For 100/100, you get drops that fly almost as fast as Mutalisks (3.38 vs 3.75). Medivacs and Slow Prisms are 2.5, for reference. So while you do get the least health and utility out of them, with speed they are the most mobile and they don't cost as much as Medivacs and are much faster than Overlords. I think that storm drops and DT drops are relatively unexplored tools in the Protoss arsenal, but that's a late late late game thing. On the other hand, we have a speed upgrade that puts us on par with carriers. You do need a robotics bay as well, though. So you'll only be getting the upgrade if you're going the colossus tech path (which admittedly is very often), and then only after researching the extended thermal lance upgrade. In my experience, drops have been useful only in the very late game. Late game chargelot drops (possibly with a lot of warpgates for warp-in) are really good against zerg; you can take out a hatch/mineral line very quickly and the zerg is forced to pull a lot of units to defend. I agree that storm drops are somewhat underused - they are very powerful, if quite expensive! 8 marines are about as deadly to a worker line as 2 HTs.. | ||
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mockturtle
United States220 Posts
All a P player has to do is build a forward pylon and they can have a small harassing force on demand. We see this constantly and since this is used for backdooring, it seriously eats into the usefulness of warp prisms. | ||
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