EPTWhy Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 3
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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Moofadoobada
United States266 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:55 Enervate wrote: I think it's because a pylon is a better alternative to a warp prism. Units aren't at risk, way cheaper, and provides supply. The only negative is that you can't exactly place one in your opponent's base, but you can put it nearby, and warp in units like that. This is a really good point also. What kind of units would you want to drop from a warp prism? My first reaction is dt / ht or zealots for the mineral line harass. All of those are from gateways so pylons just provide a more reliable option for the most part. | ||
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Absolutionn
United States512 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:48 Headshot wrote: Accept for the fact that a Shuttle was almost always required if you wanted to use Reavers to their full potential. This isn't the case with any unit in SC2. In my opinion, what would make protoss more interesting, is make colossus really slow like the reaver, but make it do alot of damage. This way there is alot more micro and setup to battles, not just making a big ball and attack moving. They would probably have to make the colossus only ground though so that warp prisms can actually be used without vikings or corrupters being able to completely shut them down and the colossus | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
(okay so you have to cancel an expansion and save up to afford it, but still sounds fun). | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
first priority is observer/immortal/colossus and only if these units are sufficient in number, i'd make warp prism. this happens rarely on 1robo. once i get 2nd robo, i'd pump out double colossus and only when i have sufficient number of colossus, it'll be freed up to make warp prism. this leads to prisms being used only in late game, unless i plan to use it from the beginning. going early prism is a bit risky, i need good intel on my opponent, see if i have room to build a prism while sacrificing immortal/observer timing. its not a problem of "just make it and use it", it just cuts too much time out of the important units that i really need depending on the situation. i do use them often, when im allowed. however i find DT harass to be more effective in late game. | ||
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rolfe
United Kingdom1266 Posts
also toss units are generally not that good once dropped, zealots are ok and DTs are excellent (though obviously thats quite tech intensive to have both a robo and dark shrine) but workers can be ran away from zealots quite easily and zealots alone die quite quickly to most standard units in any army composition. i think they do ok though and can work very well in some situations. i definitely don't think they need to be changed in any way | ||
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vectorix108
United States4633 Posts
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
should be able to dodge a lot of things ( marines with stim run at 3.375 ) you can run away from vikings quite easily with it, too | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
If you're Protoss is not losing (and recently they started to) they will not develop new strategies. Since protoss started losing recently we may see more creative play and Protoss metagame may evolve. As zerg metagame evolved. Terran on the other hand has still to evolve the metagame significantly since Beta, but I digress. Warp prisms are (IMO) the best transport unit in the game. You don't even need to carry units inside, making it so if you lose the transport it is not such a big deal because it was empty to begin with. And a few zealots can wreak havoc on a mineral line, and can snipe tech structures pretty quickly. | ||
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Ihpares
United States40 Posts
Point 1: Warp Prisms do have undeniably low hitpoints, I'll admit, especially given the cost. Of course, this is made up for by the fact you essentially get a portable pylon, and decent speed with the prism from the start. Medivacs are slower, and before upgrading, overlords are WAY slower. Speed can make up for health, with good micro. And all of that is before using shields to run/return. Point 2: Depends where you put the prism itself. Just imagine it as a proxy pylon - you have to hide it somewhere your opponent isn't likely to look. Point 3: See above. Also, Overlords giving supply can be seen as a liability - especially as you approach 200 supply. Medivacs make up for the regen capabilities of Terran Bio, especially considering the shields of Protoss. Point 4: Supply carried by each is a poor argument. It's widely accepted that, supply for supply, Protoss has the best units. This is why the other two races have to remax to fight the 'Deathball' for example. In addition, directly after dropping, the prism can transform to allow reinforcements instantly. The drop itself is only half of the problem. What can be done to encourage Protoss players to drop? Simple: A shift in the metagame. When builds arise that being to threaten Protoss current capacity to turtle up to 200/200 supply and just go win the game, Protoss will begin looking at other options, Warp Prism inclusive. | ||
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Naughty
United States114 Posts
Because of the current Meta game protoss has had no reason to adapt to a different play style as there primary gameplay has been obtain death ball A-Move -> Win. As Terran and Zerg continue to adapt to that style of play you might see protoss move out of there comfort zone and try new things ie. warp prisms. | ||
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Geos13
437 Posts
Regarding point 3, part of the reason drops are effective in the first place is that they allow you to do damage and then save the units. Because the warp prism can't carry many units you can't warp in many units during a drop and keep them all alive. I think this is really important as to explaining why the warp in ability is not as useful as one would at first expect during drops. For a drop to be advantageous you need to do more damage then taken and the easiest way to do that is to run your troops away before they die.That combined with the generally accepted view that a pylon built behind the battle is better than a prism makes the warp in ability disappointing. I think its biggest advantage is allowing you to not have to risk having the prism die with all of your troops in it on the way to the drop location. | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
I think the Prism is quite fine, 200 minerals is better than 100/100 imho. Protoss is already very gas-intensive so 200 minerals is actually nice. The fact it can create a powerfield is extremely powerful, White-Ra demonstrates it very often on his stream. Now I think of it, some people should try Warp Prism Cannon Rushes :D Mine 100 gas for the Robo, then take Probes off gas (or 150 including Warpgate tech). I can see it working in close air positions vs eco-greedy Zergs. The only downside of the Prims is the relatively low HP as you mentioned. I wouldn't mind a bit more shield on it. I do think the Overlord is a better dropship though, at least in longer games (it requires 300/300 to be useful as dropship). As games are getting longer and longer, the Overlord as dropship also got a slight "buff", in a way. Zergs are finally starting to use their brains instead of whining about balance constantly and actually use these awesome dropships for baneling drops and dropping roaches at 3 spots at once. That's exactly what you have to do with units that cheap, yet powerful. I see more and more Zergs destroying Protosses with this. | ||
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:04 Jotoco wrote: Warp prisms are not used because standard protoss play is so efficient. If you're Protoss is not losing (and recently they started to) they will not develop new strategies. Since protoss started losing recently we may see more creative play and Protoss metagame may evolve. As zerg metagame evolved. Terran on the other hand has still to evolve the metagame significantly since Beta, but I digress. Warp prisms are (IMO) the best transport unit in the game. You don't even need to carry units inside, making it so if you lose the transport it is not such a big deal because it was empty to begin with. And a few zealots can wreak havoc on a mineral line, and can snipe tech structures pretty quickly. I think this hits the nail on the head. The reason zergs have been dropping is because they have found that against certain strategies, drop is the correct/only/best answer. Zerg drops are terribly inefficient most of the time honestly. Until Protoss players stop winning via turtle-into-deathball or gateway rushing style, there is no reason for them to change. There are plenty of use for warp prisms (particularly with speed upgrade). | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
Because of this 90% of the warp prism timings are some sort of all in with warp-in in the enemy base. There are way more cons tho: - You build medivacs and overlords even if you don't want to drop - 8 stimmed marines do way way more damage then 4zealots/stalkers (if the guy getting dropped properly responds) -200 minerals is pretty expensive and it takes time away from building the important immortals/colossi, you can't really afford them to fool around with until you properly got 3 bases running, or you need to have a timing with them. -Losing a warp prism full of stalkers/zealots is pretty big, but as far as I know terrans don't really care if their 8 marines die  .In my opinion they should make warp prisms cheaper or my other idea was: Make warp prisms build from gateways/warpgates but you can only make them once you get ur robo facility up | ||
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Torumfroll
290 Posts
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
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Moki.tv
United States38 Posts
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
Second, as other have said, there are just no good droppable units. DTs and HTs can be good in late game, but using a warp prism isn't even necessary in many cases. | ||
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