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Stoffelhase
Germany162 Posts
with stim or speedlings you dont have to suicide your units AND can do a lot of dmg.. if you do a zealot drop, they can do some dmg, but mostly will just scare workers away for 5 seconds with just 1-2 kills.. the other races kill more.. if you drop stalkers, they do way to less dmg to be really effective.. the suicide effect: protoss units are just way to slow walking back to the prism.. | ||
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KiF1rE
United States964 Posts
On May 07 2011 05:29 Avs wrote: I find it odd, that you don't mention the fact that you can load a warp prism up with 4 units, and then warp in any number of units after its in position, thereby able to drop a larger number of units than any other single transport in the game. why do so many people keep mentioning this? its like every other post. The answer is simple, because you lose that entire wave of units for not that great of damage on the harass. Good drops from T and Z micro around and will have minimal casualties. And if were talking late game just to warp in reinforcements. A pylon is better... | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On May 07 2011 04:49 Polatrite wrote: No, no they are NOT amazing harassment *at all*. Have you played against solid opponents? The moment the workers start to flee the mineral line, your harassment damage is reduced to nothing. Literally: zero. The chargelots can charge once, strike once, then the workers are out of range and STILL outrunning chargelots even after the charge passive speed boost (+0.5 to 2.75). If anything, you might get one or two escapees. 10 seconds later you can charge again, but if the opponent can't respond with SOME attacking units in 10 seconds, that's a lucky or very well/specifically timed drop. You could switch to targeting a depot or pylon, but it takes 7 swings from all 4 zealots with +1 to kill the depot - that's 10 seconds too. Are you going to risk losing 400 minerals of zealots to kill one supply building that likely won't even supply cap an opponent at that stage of the game? I'm not a genius, but I've seen WhiteRa use Chargelots plus Warp Prisms very well. The idea is to attack in multiple places at once, and put the Chargelots down in the right place etc, etc. For example, if you have dropped your Chargelots in different places in the mineral line, it will be difficult for enemy workers to move past them, especially if they are on hold position. Are Chargelots + Warp Prism as good as Marines + Medivacs for harassment? Probably not, especially at the lower levels. Does that make them bad? Absolutely not, they are very solid harassment units, especially as even if some die you can move away, warp in more and harass again. Sometimes you don't need to do more damage than you take, or even break even. If you keep your opponent pinned in his base you gain full map control etc, etc. Even if you attack and kill 8 workers, say, and get back in your Warp Prism and run away, that is well over 400 minerals you have taken from your opponent (as a lot of mining time will be lost, has to pull army back, delays anything 400 minerals are needed for instantly or cripples economy). On May 07 2011 04:49 Polatrite wrote:The rest of your argument, requiring templar+robo tech, or suggesting that Protoss goes mass gateway until 3 base, just further undermines the credibility of the above. The reason Protoss doesn't go mass gateway until 3 base is because they will generally die to strong mass ball pushes from the other races. I think AdelScott and Tyler would probably disagree with you on that one. Did you see AdelScott vs MvP in TSL? I was specifically talking about PvT by the way (and it says so), so I don't know what you mean by 'other races'. Please don't just dismiss styles which have proven to be successful at the highest level of play, and have been successful for me too. To be honest your response to my suggestion tells more about your credibility than mine. | ||
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GWEEDZ
United States12 Posts
I feel like if the warp prism didn't come out of the robotics facility then it would be much more viable. ATM i never make warp prisms because i feel like i am always making something else that is more important with the robo. I think that if it is made a stargate unit then it will be used more and it seems to make sense as it is a flying unit. I for one would most probably use it much more if it came out of the stargate, or if there was another way of getting them. It's also definetly true though that protoss don't want to split up their army, while terran and zerg usually do want to. As a protoss, you always want to fight with your whole army and this is probably the second biggest reason why we don't see warp prisms often IMO. | ||
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AgentZero
United States28 Posts
On May 07 2011 05:41 Stoffelhase wrote: i did not read a lot here, but the main reason i dont use prism (master league) is the speed and damage of the units dropped.. with stim or speedlings you dont have to suicide your units AND can do a lot of dmg.. if you do a zealot drop, they can do some dmg, but mostly will just scare workers away for 5 seconds with just 1-2 kills.. the other races kill more.. if you drop stalkers, they do way to less dmg to be really effective.. the suicide effect: protoss units are just way to slow walking back to the prism.. I've played with drops in a few games (admittedly not masters level) and where I've had the most success is combining zealots with a sentry or two. I use the sentries to FF the area between the hatch/nexus/CC and the refinery, which causes all kinds of pathing problems when probes are trying to escape. I never leave the sentry (or sentries) there though, once they've FF'ed they're back in the transport and ready to go. | ||
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Juanald
United States354 Posts
On May 06 2011 22:51 freetgy wrote: yeah so scary that workers run away from them  imho the only viable midgame drop are Chargelots. Chargelots are 1000 times better than Zealot drops. i agree in low numbers zelots just arent as scarey as marines would u rather have 2 marines or 1 zealot i think the answer is clear | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On May 07 2011 08:32 Juanald wrote: i agree in low numbers zelots just arent as scarey as marines would u rather have 2 marines or 1 zealot i think the answer is clear What do you think does more damage as a drop: 8 marines or 4 zealots? | ||
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Juanald
United States354 Posts
On May 07 2011 09:37 ScythedBlade wrote: What do you think does more damage as a drop: 8 marines or 4 zealots? thats not the point u can run the scv away from zealot without losing any but marine will kill most | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 07 2011 06:13 SeaSwift wrote: Even if you attack and kill 8 workers, say, and get back in your Warp Prism and run away, that is well over 400 minerals you have taken from your opponent (as a lot of mining time will be lost, has to pull army back, delays anything 400 minerals are needed for instantly or cripples economy). [ Well that's the problem right there. Against good opponents, unless they're otherwise preoccupied or you get extremely lucky, you won't kill anywhere near 8 workers with a chargelot drop. You'll be lucky to kill 1-2. At most, your drop will kill 2 workers and prevent mining for like...8 seconds. Drops are all about risk-reward. Is the risk of losing X resources/supply of units worth the possible Y reward I can get out of it? For Protoss drops, the risk is much too high for the possible reward. That's why drops aren't done and that's also why you probably won't see Protoss drops become anywhere near common anytime soon. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On May 07 2011 11:19 Ryuu314 wrote: Well that's the problem right there. Against good opponents, unless they're otherwise preoccupied or you get extremely lucky, you won't kill anywhere near 8 workers with a chargelot drop. You'll be lucky to kill 1-2. At most, your drop will kill 2 workers and prevent mining for like...8 seconds. Drops are all about risk-reward. Is the risk of losing X resources/supply of units worth the possible Y reward I can get out of it? For Protoss drops, the risk is much too high for the possible reward. That's why drops aren't done and that's also why you probably won't see Protoss drops become anywhere near common anytime soon. I think you are severely underestimating the damage done by a Chargelot drop, especially late game and especially when you are attacking in multiple places at once. Again, I believe that Chargelot drops are best lategame, and why I dislike the fact that we have no highly useful harassment unit early to midgame, while Terran has about 6 or 7 early to midgame harassment units, and possibly even more lategame. That does not make Chargelots + Warp Prism worse, but it does resign them to the lategame. | ||
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pestilenz
Denmark379 Posts
On May 07 2011 11:19 Ryuu314 wrote: Well that's the problem right there. Against good opponents, unless they're otherwise preoccupied or you get extremely lucky, you won't kill anywhere near 8 workers with a chargelot drop. You'll be lucky to kill 1-2. At most, your drop will kill 2 workers and prevent mining for like...8 seconds. ANY player can be caught off guard with drops, and just like any other kind off harass it gives you map control which makes you able to do what you want. And as for economic effectiveness you do not have to do a lot of damage in the mid game - just punish if a mistake is made. Effective protoss drops are more suited for the late-game IMO. But I must agree that drops for protoss players in general prob won't be very popular until the colossi death ball strategy is wrecked apart and people start experimenting more with the void prisms. "Why take chances when you can win without taking any?" must say that I still love warp prisms - insanely funny^^ | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
*Folds arms* | ||
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413X
Sweden203 Posts
I like warp prisms. I really do. So I'm going to analyze my own and my thoughts about the warp prism. As we all can conclude, is that the warp prism is fairly slow. It's super weak and can be killed by almost anything. So what leaves the warp prism usage us? The protoss player can use warp prisms effectively in PvT by 3 reasons. 1. Due to general mapcontrol that the protoss player have against a terran opponent. The terran are unable to scout any early dropping action before the warp prism is in his base. Resulting in that the terran has to deal with the prism before he can counter. 2. DT drop. DT is very effective against terrans due to their very expensive ways of detection. Only turrets are "cheap" and they are hard to set up while having DTs in the base at the same time. 3. HT drop. Storming the mineral line, killing a huge amount of workers in an instant. As a protoss player, I'm anoyed just by looking at these 3 ways of using the prism. You see, there are just these three. No matter how you twist and turn this. The rest of the alternatives are very much bisarr, such as the early gas, +1 attack zealot drop with cannons against zerg and so on. What we have to take into all of this is that a player have a good sense of feeling of what the opponent is doing and also where he is having holes in his defences. It is very common for instance, that a terran player is doing turrets around his expands and his base, not because he spotted a dark shrine. No, because he prevents the possibility of DTs showing up. Ever. When it comes to drops like HT storm drops. If you have an issue or problem dealing with this. Basically you suck. Don't get anoyed when you read this, because this is a problem that protoss have to deal with ALOT against terrans. You have to split armys to deal with drops or "the possibility" of drops. That is why we place alot of offensive pylons to scout any drops. This can very well be said to terrans that are on 2-3 bases. Where HT drops comes into play, the terran can with ease place offensive supply depods to scout any aggression. The HT drop is the most uneffective drop out there. Here we have a unit, that dies from anything, that have cargo, that have to wait 45 seconds to do his ability and fly very slow and the cargo is even slower. And if the drop is scouted, just move your workers to save them ALL. Please compare this to any other drop of other races. Naturally, HT drops can be used and work but only if the opponent makes mistakes. One of the most important things that needs to be said, is that protoss doesn't really have good units to drop. HT and DT is great but that's it. Zealots are great units to kill workers but any good player just moves away his workers to save them and can then with ease deal with a massive 400 mineral investment. As you probably noticed, i skipped the entire part of zerg. Why? Well it's quite frikkin obvious isn't it. The zerg has a natural path of going anti air against protoss, killing the prism in 1 second. They have overlords EVERYWHERE, detecting it very early and fast. All bases of a zerg has a natural defense against a warp prism, the queen. If I were to drop 4 zealots or more, they would be surrounded by a huge speedling army in 2 seconds due to speed and creep. Does it work against protoss? Yes... well... no... sort of. Is really the answer. The problem with warp prism is that you walk a veeery fine line to survive. Just making the warp prism is taking away 2 zealots from your army, and then make atleast 3 to be effective in the opponents base. Will cause 5 zealots to disappear from your army. It's like placing an expand in PvP. 95% of the times it fails due to an attack at that time. If you use the warp prism, you focus on barely surviving while the zealots do enough damage til he warps in more units. Sometimes it works, alot of the times it don't. 95% of the time is crappy opponents that fails in their play. I've read some other comments, obviously by a zerg or terran player. That have asked, why not use other units in the warp prism, for instance immortals/colossus or something else to do the herass? The problem is this folks. The prism is very weak. It dies very fast. It dies from anything it encounter basically. Do you really want to put 2 immortals, which is 500 minerals and 200 gas and massive amount of robo time. In what can only be compared to a 30% hp medivac or overlord. Same thing goes for the colossus. Sure you can probably go on and do it, but why? It isn't effective. Is it really worth the risk to snipe 1 or at best 2 supply depods? A zerg, again, would deal with the threat in no time and have no problem with it. 1 queen against the warp prism = gg. Lastly, don't ever argue that any drop can be effective if the opponent is caught off guard. Any drop in any situation can be effective under the right circumstance. If you know how to deal with them, and play in a way that allows you to fight them (This is to be said about drops in mid-late game.). To conclude all of this. Warp prism is hilarious to play, because it enable a protoss player to push the opponent back when it usually is the protoss player that is being pushed back. So the protoss players comfort zone is huge in comparison. But in mid and late game, it is too much of a risk. Sadly, sometimes it IS the only way to beat a terran that have you in a contain. What could be done to make the prism better? lower the costs of it's speed. It's too much minerals in a too high risk element of playing. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
Just thought that should be kept in mind for people saying protoss units aren't good for dropping because they don't do much damage in small groups; maybe they don't need to. The threat of a drop is often worse than the drop itself. | ||
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KinQuh
Finland810 Posts
On May 08 2011 23:07 The KY wrote: Was watching the Day[9] Daily 'Dealing With Duckload' the other day when he pointed out Sjow dropping White Ra frequently, but never actually doing very much damage at all. The point was that the purpose of the drops was not to kill probes, snipe pylons or kill a nexus, it was to do a different sort of damage; keep White Ra on the backfoot, spread him out, keep him in his base. Just thought that should be kept in mind for people saying protoss units aren't good for dropping because they don't do much damage in small groups; maybe they don't need to. The threat of a drop is often worse than the drop itself. Thats is true and infact , if the opponent fears drops he just donates the mapcontrol to you and you can easily expand ,or just do whatever you want to. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
gas is worth about 2x minerals last i checked the best way to go about these drops is warp prisms phase in single dt's On May 08 2011 23:07 The KY wrote: Was watching the Day[9] Daily 'Dealing With Duckload' the other day when he pointed out Sjow dropping White Ra frequently, but never actually doing very much damage at all. The point was that the purpose of the drops was not to kill probes, snipe pylons or kill a nexus, it was to do a different sort of damage; keep White Ra on the backfoot, spread him out, keep him in his base. Just thought that should be kept in mind for people saying protoss units aren't good for dropping because they don't do much damage in small groups; maybe they don't need to. The threat of a drop is often worse than the drop itself. who won that match? | ||
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Pgbz
Canada55 Posts
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Qaz
84 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On May 08 2011 23:20 Qaz wrote: Minigun used them extensively in his showmatch against sixjaxMajor yesterday to great effect. At the right time, 3 zealots, or a dt can have devastating results. He would drop 3 Zealots and kill maybe 4 SCVs, and then lose all the Zealots. Not sure if the trade is worth it at that stage. It certainly disrupted sixjaxMajors play, but other than that I think Minigun did more economic damage to himself half the time, considering those DT's are 125gas each | ||
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