EPTWhy Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 20
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Smancer
United States379 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On May 06 2011 21:54 gillon wrote: 4 Zealots are just as scary as 8 marines are, that's a pretty bad argument. yeah so scary that workers run away from them  imho the only viable midgame drop are Chargelots. Chargelots are 1000 times better than Zealot drops. | ||
Clerseri
Australia150 Posts
So 5 overlords are roughly 5 times better than 1 overlord because they deliver 5x the supply. 5 medivacs are roughly 5 times better than 1 medivac because they heal 5x as many units But 5 warp prisms are nowhere near 5 times better than 1 warp prism, because you only need one deployed warp prism to warp in all your gates. So that means it's very unlikely that you'll ever see more than 1 or 2 prisms, where the other races naturally have a lot of their dropship. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
- creep everywhere (connecting all bases to increase speed and good vision of any toss units moving on his side of the map) - speed overlords spread all over the map dropping creep (sees any harass incoming long before warp prism is ever going to reach zergs bases and increases the speed abit) - the warp prism is really slow and fragile (its really easy for any zerg units that hit air to kill it, even queens kill them fast) - they take up the robo production so your colossus or immortal count will be lower (same effect as making observers has, well except it doesnt cost gas) - zerg is stronger than toss when the battle is spread out on a big area or there are multiple fights at once. the reason behind this is that zerg is the one struggling to get surface area to make all his units attack at once while toss. zergs army takes more surface area in general to allow all his units to attack at once and toss has more AoE damage that supports this aswell. the guardian shield and FF is also optimal in tight battle areas - even if you do economical damage to the zerg. zerg has still alot easier time to replenish his economy than a toss or terran does (zerg usually lacks gas in the zvp rather than larva or minerals while terran builds scvs really slowly and needs more minerals overall in tvp and pvp is just low economy overall and losing probes is really bad) even if warp prisms has more hp or the speed upgrade by default or cost less it would still be pretty ineffective in pvz compared to pvt. i also think toss has enough harass tools already vs zerg. pylon blocking expansions early game. making a few phoenixes is basically good in every aspect of the game unless you plan on making a really clean timing attack. blink stalkers can harass pretty nicely if you are careful and warpin dts with or without hidden pylons is really strong vs zerg too. also i wont forget to mention voidray in early midgame to deny building hatcheries before zerg gets creep, queens, hydras or corruptors to save it (mutalisk is not an option in early midgame in this situation because of the phoenix support) warp prism harass however is alot stronger on bigger maps in the zvp matchup cause its difficult to spread overlords everywhere and connect creep between your bases. it takes alot longer time for zerg to respond compared to smaller maps so to sum it up i think the warp prism is fine as it is in tvp and its not gonna become alot more encouraging to use it vs zerg even if it was buffed because of how the races interact with each other | ||
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BoxedLunch
United States387 Posts
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ryan1894
Australia264 Posts
1 overlord = 8 slots 1 medivac = 8 slots 1 warp prism = potentially infinite amount of units with warp mode engaged... Its price and reward justify its risk from vulnerability and speed. | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On May 06 2011 23:03 Clerseri wrote: One point not considered in the OP is that the warp prism's secondary use is very specific, and doesn't require more than one prism. So 5 overlords are roughly 5 times better than 1 overlord because they deliver 5x the supply. 5 medivacs are roughly 5 times better than 1 medivac because they heal 5x as many units But 5 warp prisms are nowhere near 5 times better than 1 warp prism, because you only need one deployed warp prism to warp in all your gates. So that means it's very unlikely that you'll ever see more than 1 or 2 medivacs, where the other races naturally have a lot of their dropship. Warp Prisms are late-game oriented (because as discussed earlier, you don't want to trade armies as P. So the only time you want to trade armies is when you are maxed but have a better economy so you can replace while he can't). So you can't warp stuff in when you are 200/200. The fundamental difference is that medivacs are using existing army. While a Terran might have 20 marines and 2-3 medivacs sitting around in the mid game, he can use THOSE medivacs and marines to do the drop while using his current resources to expand/tech/build an army. With warp prisms, you are essentially using the warp prism like the medivac but the only option is a "build an army" option, since you have your army in your base not doing anything for the drop. The main conclusion is that Protoss can't use warp prisms in the same way Terran uses medivacs, which is fine. However, I think Protoss needs to figure out what role the warp prism can play for THEM and what hole can it fill in their play. The lack of use of the warp prism implies that either 1) there is no role for the warp prism in the protoss army 2) there is no CURRENT hole that the warp prism can fill, there may be one later or not. I think the idea of loading up 4 zealots (or HTs/DTs) and running into an expansion and dropping them is about the best harass protoss has. So why hasn't the protoss been doing them? If they go Colossus, they need the zealots as meet shield in their main army, and they "can't" stop colossus production to ensure getting that critical mass. When you go HTs, you will have enough money to spare and you can get the zealots. Colossus has been by far more popular than HTs (not necessarily better, but probably easier). The main dilemma here is that the speed upgrade is bunched with the colossus tech, the tech where you are least likely to get a warp prism. I think this was in design supposed to work and mimic the reaver-shuttle combo of BW, but obviously does not work in the same way in SC2. | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
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mechavoc
United States664 Posts
I can remember a number of times when a Toss opponant has done a gret multi prong attack, death ball in the front and then continuous warps in my main. This is even worse if those warps are DTs. a couple of DTs in a main without good detection is a fast gg  While 8 marines or a overlord full of banelings can cause a good amount of damage it is nothing like the power of a warp point in a main. I hope toss don't read this thread and use more prism harass hehe | ||
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ClueLessx3
Australia53 Posts
Force field the sides of the base and see the workers clumped up for you archon to demolish ^^ EDIT: spelling | ||
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Jandos
Czech Republic928 Posts
2) no zealot bombs to kill mines 3) toss units sux in small numbers. I still think we will see more warp prism play in the future | ||
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Maximumraver
Netherlands124 Posts
On May 06 2011 23:36 ClueLessx3 wrote: Now with the new archon buff coming up i might consider 1x archon 1x sentry drop. Force field the sides of the base and see the workers clumped up for you archon to demolish ^^ EDIT: spelling That actually sounds somewhat sexy | ||
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Swad1000
United States366 Posts
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pestilenz
Denmark379 Posts
I think warp prisms are awesome! 200 minerals for a moveable pylon that can move stuff! Use 2 maybe 3 warp prisms to harras with storms both on mineral lines and directly on their army to soften it up. Also just having a warp prism or two with your army for constant warp in is nice. Warp prisms can run away from ANYTHING!!! They are insanely fast with the speed upgrade, almost as fast as mutas! What I am trying to say is that I love warp prisms <3, and think they are under used - people do not experiment enough with the possibilities available. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
I've played people who try stuff like 5 gate warp prism warpins, but it really just doesn't work that well because stalkers and zealots are not very good. The best reason to use warp prisms is late game, popping some DTs around behind a base. | ||
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locilocisu
25 Posts
Once you see incoming units, you can run away as Archons are actually fairly quick (and now that it's going to be massive, it won't be slowed down). Seems to me that protoss drops is more of a late game drop to be effective in contrast to terran's which is a mid game drop. Late game, especially againsts zerg, protoss needs to harrass, else zerg would just expand everywhere and have a booming economy. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
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SoundProof
Sweden99 Posts
On May 06 2011 23:36 ClueLessx3 wrote: Now with the new archon buff coming up i might consider 1x archon 1x sentry drop. Force field the sides of the base and see the workers clumped up for you archon to demolish ^^ EDIT: spelling To further this idea, a +3 archon can one shot scvs and drones, perhaps making it more viable in the late game, though it is a lot weaker versus probes. Just a thought. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On May 07 2011 01:03 SoundProof wrote: To further this idea, a +3 archon can one shot scvs and drones, perhaps making it more viable in the late game, though it is a lot weaker versus probes. Just a thought. Thing is, if you have Templar tech and upgrades, it will almost always be better to use Chargelots. An all-mineral harass is almost always the best, especially considering how cheap Chargelots are compared to Archons. | ||
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