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On May 04 2011 23:52 MechKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:50 Shana wrote:
Storm nerfed, Reaver removed and DT is so high in tech. It's not because warp prism but mainly because Toss has no good harassment unit. I think this is mainly it. Marines and marauders kill units/workers super quickly. Zealots are slow and melee units and stalkers' dps isn't high enough to kill buildings quick. Carrying only 4 of them doesn't help either.
zealots have almost the same dps against armored as unstimmed marauders, last time i checked buildings didnt run away.
and again, every protoss poster is ignoring the warp in aspect. if your drop is unaposed (like it has to be for terran if you want to actually kill a nexus / hatch) you can warp in more to deal more damage. the way sentries work, if an expo is in another spawns main, you can actually wall the defensive army out. aspects like this get completely overlooked just because the numbers say marauders should kill buildings the fastest
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Very Biased Suggestion Time:
(VBST, just made that up, get @me)
Balance
Protoss
All units warped-in via a warp prism power field spawn with an additional 25 energy.
This will of course allow for high Templar reinforcements and sentries to FF a ramp if you drop into the main. Yes, this is probably way too strong, but I am biased, I believe if toned down a little bit this suggestion could be a viable one to eventually implement, however, perhaps tone down the additional 25 energy to say, 10.
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On May 05 2011 00:31 Scrubington wrote:
Very Biased Suggestion Time:
(VBST, just made that up, get @me)
Balance
Protoss
All units warped-in via a warp prism power field spawn with an additional 25 energy.
Way too fiddly. It is too obvious as a way to buff HTs, and doesn't promote original gameplay if you patch purely to fix one particular problem.
Quite simply, make Warp Prism Speed available at Cybernetics Core.
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On May 05 2011 00:15 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:52 MechKing wrote:On May 04 2011 23:50 Shana wrote:
Storm nerfed, Reaver removed and DT is so high in tech. It's not because warp prism but mainly because Toss has no good harassment unit. I think this is mainly it. Marines and marauders kill units/workers super quickly. Zealots are slow and melee units and stalkers' dps isn't high enough to kill buildings quick. Carrying only 4 of them doesn't help either. zealots have almost the same dps against armored as unstimmed marauders, last time i checked buildings didnt run away. and again, every protoss poster is ignoring the warp in aspect. if your drop is unaposed (like it has to be for terran if you want to actually kill a nexus / hatch) you can warp in more to deal more damage. the way sentries work, if an expo is in another spawns main, you can actually wall the defensive army out. aspects like this get completely overlooked just because the numbers say marauders should kill buildings the fastest
Oh, I was talking about stimmed marauders, excuse my mistake.  Zealots are weak harassment units because they are melee though. You have a limited time to do a drop before the enemy reacts so if you drop Zealots, you have to basically kill the closest building to the edge of the base.
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On May 05 2011 00:34 MechKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:15 turdburgler wrote:On May 04 2011 23:52 MechKing wrote:On May 04 2011 23:50 Shana wrote:
Storm nerfed, Reaver removed and DT is so high in tech. It's not because warp prism but mainly because Toss has no good harassment unit. I think this is mainly it. Marines and marauders kill units/workers super quickly. Zealots are slow and melee units and stalkers' dps isn't high enough to kill buildings quick. Carrying only 4 of them doesn't help either. zealots have almost the same dps against armored as unstimmed marauders, last time i checked buildings didnt run away. and again, every protoss poster is ignoring the warp in aspect. if your drop is unaposed (like it has to be for terran if you want to actually kill a nexus / hatch) you can warp in more to deal more damage. the way sentries work, if an expo is in another spawns main, you can actually wall the defensive army out. aspects like this get completely overlooked just because the numbers say marauders should kill buildings the fastest Oh, I was talking about stimmed marauders, excuse my mistake. Zealots are weak harassment units because they are melee though. You have a limited time to do a drop before the enemy reacts so if you drop Zealots, you have to basically kill the closest building to the edge of the base.
Weak harassment units because they're melee? They've probably got the best resilience:DPS ratio of any teir one unit in the game. If they're dropped into a mineral line four Zealots can tank probably 20 or so workers .
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Warp Prism is a sick unit, people should learn to use it more.
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I really have no freaking Idea why the Prism isn't used more in the Lategame... Let's say you have like 6-10 WG's - Put some Zealots/HT's in the Prism, then go into your opponents main, warp in a few Sentries and zealots and start tearing up their base while Force-Fielding the ramp - why does nobody do that?
Probably cuz Toss wins without high-skill tactics like that....
Like Tyler said; Protoss has sooo many possibilities to harrass like that (Phoenix, Blinkstalkers, Warp-In's, Prism), yet nobody does it until it's actually needed to win.
If I'd play Protoss, I'd definitely use stuff like that, cuz it's more fun, can be very effective and it's definitely a skill that's gonna be used if you want to play Toss on a high level in the hopefully not too distant future.
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On May 05 2011 00:38 Scrubington wrote:
Weak harassment units because they're melee? They've probably got the best resilience:DPS ratio of any teir one unit in the game. If they're dropped into a mineral line four Zealots can tank probably 20 or so workers .
The power of harass is high probability of damage. Zealots are slow, there is a good chance you'll get VERY FEW worker kills with a zealot drop. There is good chance you'll lose 600 minerals dropping 4 zealots and do far less than that in damage. Sure, if they don't run awya their workers, you can decimate their mineral line, but chances are you won't. I think with the archon buff, we'll see more templar play though, and I think templar drops with storm have a high probability of doing a lot of damage.
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I don' think that there is a problem with the the unit or the concept and execution of a protoss drop. 200 minerals and NO gas is pretty cheap, and it's got a cool secondary ability. I think the problem is the robo bay. It can make four units in total. Two of these units are pretty potent combat units, the third is the all but essential source of mobile detection, and the fourth is the warp prism. When you look at it like that I think it's fairly obvious why you just don't see warp prisms. 9 times out of 10 you are building something else that is essential to your battle plan. You just can't afford to build them. In this case the lack of currency has nothing to do with the physical resources in the game, but rather a lack of time.
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the reason I think warp prism drops are rare is due to the fact the ground protoss splash unit (the collosus) cannot 1 hit workers. this is because the protoss units usually have a lower DPS this aplays to all ground units APART from the collosus as that is its role - to support the army with damage. thats how protoss works, you have some units (colllo, HT) dealing the damage, protected by the gateway units. for drops though, you dont care about health, you care about damage. And if the only unit role that does lots of slpash damage does not do that damage well enough to workers there is no point dropping.
apart from HTs
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For whatever my opinion is worth:
I think a lot of people have good points with a lot coming down to the units. Terran have marines/marauders which are great to drop in small numbers, and zerg have banelings. That's been discussed.
But the other thing is you have to have medivacs/overlords anyway.
Terran
With terran they are getting medivacs for healing regardless of drop potential, so from there dropping isn't much of an investment (unless you lose it). It's a no-brainer, which is why we see it so often.
Zerg
For a small drop, say at a mineral line, you're investing 300/300 researching speed and drops which is more than a warp prism drop, but banelings can be pretty effective.
The really powerful drops for zerg though are the larger drops which are more common. It's not just one overlord filled with units, there's a few. So that 300/300 is split between all the overlords you use and it becomes cheaper. It's basically 300/300 for as many drop ships as you like for the rest of the game. And it's basically 200/200 because most zergs get speed anyway for scouting. I'm not counting the cost of an overlord in that because you have to make overlords for supply anyway, and it's only a cost if you lose them.
This is either baneling drops like we see in battles or doom drops, dropping an army into the opponents base. With a doom drop, a whole army is being picked up and dumped in their base, it's just not something a protoss can do. Even if they were cheap warp prisms are 2 supply and eat into army size, but that's pretty irrelevant I guess because they're not cheap.
Protoss
I kind of view the ability to warp in under them as making their size bigger by however many gates you have. Except it's worse than that because you have to wait for them to warp in, and you don't have the space to take everything away again. Which means I don't really like the way they work, because you drop whats inside them and then anything you warp in is guaranteed dead, and increases the investment of a drop even more. A better change in my eyes than people have suggested is something like making it provide 10 supply. It's twice the cost of a pylon, and if you're stupid with it you can still lose it. But if you do a drop and get out of there, it's still providing supply and worst come to worst after that it powers some building and can only be taken down by anti-air. And I wouldn't be thinking "I wish I'd spent that robotics time making another colossus."
So I don't think it's particularly that protoss units just aren't good for dropping. If you dropped a bunch of zealots at expansions late game it's easy to imagine that being effective. But you have neither of the luxuries zerg and terran have with their drops; you don't already have them for another purpose and you can't do enormous drops for the rest of the game with that single investment.
So imagine even if each race's units are as effective as each other when dropped. Each warp prism you make is an investment that has to pay off or you're behind. When a terran makes no additional investment, and a zerg gets a huge Economy of Scale from a single investment.
Hope that makes sense.
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Warp Prism with speed upgrade is insane. Templar drops are really good.
Also, you can warp in units from them anywhere on the map, which makes them really useful, so you can warp in units like DTs to hit mineral lines.
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There's a dangerous state of mind that if pro players aren't doing it or if it isn't standard you shouldn't. Who says that you can't make an additional Robotics Facility for Warp Prism production, sure it will cost you 200/100 but you will almost always get that money back through successful drops. In my opinion you cannot think of the Warp Prism as just a unit that is capable of drops, it can essentialy create units around the map. Combine this with the big attack that will often happen in games will cause huge damage to your opponent, run them around with it, you never have to return to base.
When leaving your base with one, you don't even have to have units in it. Whereas with Terran/Zerg you do. That means that if it's scouted and killed then you're only losing the cost of the Warp Prism and not the units that would normally be inside.
This is from a zerg perspective so if it's utterly stupid then disregard it.
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On May 05 2011 02:51 Sicky wrote:
There's a dangerous state of mind that if pro players aren't doing it or if it isn't standard you shouldn't. Who says that you can't make an additional Robotics Facility for Warp Prism production, sure it will cost you 200/100 but you will almost always get that money back through successful drops. In my opinion you cannot think of the Warp Prism as just a unit that is capable of drops, it can essentialy create units around the map. Combine this with the big attack that will often happen in games will cause huge damage to your opponent, run them around with it, you never have to return to base.
When leaving your base with one, you don't even have to have units in it. Whereas with Terran/Zerg you do. That means that if it's scouted and killed then you're only losing the cost of the Warp Prism and not the units that would normally be inside.
This is from a zerg perspective so if it's utterly stupid then disregard it.
Actually, I agree with this too.
If you are going AdelScott's or Tyler's mass Gateway style (particularly against Terran), investing in the mid-late game on a Robo Facility just for Warp Prisms and Observers seems like a very smart idea. 200/100 is nothing, and Warp Prisms are only 200 minerals. Because the mass Gateway style relies on getting good upgrades for your Gateway units, you can get Chargelots fairly quickly and those are the real money earning harassment units when in Prisms.
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it would b cool if a warp prism gave you food like a plyon since it costs so much
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I think White-Ra shows us the best way to use the warp prism. Distract the enemy army and drop zealots. Even if you don't kill many workers, the opponent is still losing a lot of mining time, and you can focus depos or addons. Also if you drop the zealots in the middle of a fight, many players would not even notice that somethin is killing their workers.
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Sure, Warp Prisms are squishy and can't carry much, but they have their innate strengths, such as being a scout that decides what area is vulnerable before investing into units. I see the cargohold is just a way of saving some units when defenders arrive.
It's hard to justify early(1base) drop play against anything, but it surely has it's late game uses. Drops seem to be only good when contained into a position by an immobile army, or when the game's well into the later stages and the opposing guy has his defenses spread among multiple bases.
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Main thing I see happening with prisms is just using them to make your army more mobile.
ie carrying around HTs in them since theyre slow as hell and otherwise you have to babysit them and it would slow your advance. And cool micro on low hp units after theyve unloaded for the engage.
Dropwise early game at least toss units arent the best worker killers. Slow zealots and not the best at killing workers Stalkers.
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On May 05 2011 00:15 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:52 MechKing wrote:On May 04 2011 23:50 Shana wrote:
Storm nerfed, Reaver removed and DT is so high in tech. It's not because warp prism but mainly because Toss has no good harassment unit. I think this is mainly it. Marines and marauders kill units/workers super quickly. Zealots are slow and melee units and stalkers' dps isn't high enough to kill buildings quick. Carrying only 4 of them doesn't help either. zealots have almost the same dps against armored as unstimmed marauders, last time i checked buildings didnt run away.
You are right when it comes to un-upgraded units.
If you factor in +3 weapon upgrades and stim and compare you get:
zealot 8+3-1*2/1,2 = 16,67 dps
Marauder 20+6-1/1 = 25 dps.
(-1 for building armor)
A 50% advantage to the Marauder, in addition it can start attacking sooner since it has 6 range.
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For me it's definitely the problem of the robotics production time. I could squeeze in extra 200 minerals, but my robotics just NEVER seizes to produce observers/colossi/immortals. Each and every time until I reach lategame my robo-production-time is better used for something else.
Only on 2nd place comes the problem that toss actually has very little that is worth dropping. Immortal drops and 4 zealot drops are nothing compared to 4 marine/2 marauder and such. Also zealots have no range, which makes picking up stuff even less viable. Again, only in lategame DT and HT drops can be considered.
Taking away the reaver and replacing it with a unit that isn't really suited for drop-play hurt toss a lot.
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EPT
