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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
- there are no good units you can drop really. Zealot / stalker drops are hardly useful and HT drops take too much tech. - the warp prism takes quite some time to build from a building that is usually making colossi instead - the same units that counter drop harass are just needed against protoss in general. T plays MMM and viking usually which make dropping very hard, zerg has queens and hydra's/corruptors and in the mirror there are blink stalkers or there is no time to make a warp prism. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On May 04 2011 03:36 Carthage wrote: I think dark templar are basically the protoss drops. Why have your very important colossus production interrupted when you can force your opponent to put out fires with a high damage, permanently cloaked unit that can reach almost anywhere you'd want to drop without the need of a dropship? Because DTs are incredibly gas-intensive, generally gimmicky and unreliable, and provides no really useful tech route like the Robo does? | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
I'll turn to whiteras European dominance from a few months ago where he was placing high in literally every event. Whitera in an interview about his style indicated that he wanted to prove to people that drops weren't exclusive to just terrans and that warp prisms/drops are useful even if they don't do damage. The major difference between the protoss drop and the terran drop, is that the protoss drop has to be done with a purpose in mind. If you just fly in, dump your units out, let them run around and then fly home only impacting mining time, then you're doing it wrong. Instead, you need to drop, try to catch them off guard, pick off 1 or 2 scvs unless they react really poorly. Then you pick those units up and float to a nearby safe spot and wait. You'll notice in whitera replays he always chronoboosts an observer after the warp prism comes out and he sends it to the front of the base. He doesn't float around the main looking for tech, the warp prism drop is your scout... you get to see his units because it takes alot of firepower to bring down zealots and a stalker... you dont NEED to scout his base because you can see what he has when responding to your drop. Instead, you leave your observer out front to check for army movement or a counterattack. Alot of the times your drop will come during an actual push of theirs (less often post-stim nerf) and you will see their army return home to defend. If you end up killing several workers somehow its not uncommon for a terran to just all-in, which is an easy enough win. Just try to put yourself in their mindset.. what is your response when they have a full medivac waiting for your to leave your base? Do you leave units behind? Do you throw up cannons so you don't have to? Do you build a stargate and try to get air control, thus deviating from your plan? If you start to think of things in those terms you will realize that drops do SO much more than can be quantified by units killed or the cost of the drop to you. Examples where Warp Prism is good: PvT in general, timing drop before stim is out particularly. Zealots are the heartiest unit you have and they are cheap. You can drop them and even if they are marauder heavy you can pick them up and float somewhere safe, keeping the drop threat alive. Stalkers are generally not a great drop, but I add one to my drop play (that I stole directly from whitera) so that my zealots cant be kited by concussive as easily. You generally drop your units off, do some damage, see what they send to defend it with. If your units won't get kills against his army, pick your guys up and fly to some empty airspace and just wait. You'll find that the prism is very easy to keep alive before they have stim, which is exactly when the first drop comes. Subsequent drops they will have stim ready, so you just make it quicker and get out quicker... just keep the warp prism alive as long as possible. Late game PvT I thnk its pretty obvious why its good to be able to just fly anywhere and warp shit in. Pretty self explanatory. PvZ Warp prisms are okay at best, but this is due to overlords. I've done some timings attacks that I would call "metagaming it" where i would make gateway units, 2 immortals, and a warp prism and just attack, picking up immortals that were taking fire. The attack comes before hydras were out, but I stopped doing it in favor of macro games as its pretty all-in if it fails. Nonetheless its an effective push that usually kills their expansion if not win the game right there. Late game PvZ. If you have gotten air control via stargate play a warp prism will do fine, but honestly you probably won't have much robo downtime and its usually just as easy to warp in some dts off a pylon and walk than it is to be sneaky. Warp prism is quite a bit weaker against zerg, but worth bringing with you on pushes if you have downtime on an early robo. The pylon power is really strong, but your drops in general will be less effective here than vs terran. On top of the above reasons, zerg can replace their workers fast so even if you DO damage, its not going to hurt quite as bad as killing a terran mule or something. PvP. People might hate me for this, but in the current state of PvP this thing has very few uses. It's barely not terrible. Here's why. Any build you've seen this in as part of the early game in PvP has not really had anything to do with the warp prism. Whitera vs. MC was almost entirely due to luck and poor play by MC. There was nothing clever about his warp prism timing and there was nothing safe about it. In fact, it was quite unsafe based on the information he had, but MC didn't capitalize. Similarly, Tyler vs. Socke was cited earlier, but that is another bad example of a use of warp prism. The builds in PvP early game are simply too tight for a warp prism timing to work. It's very risky and a very big gamble. The best time to get one is during the robo bay warp in, but even that is risky as it delays zealots that you will need. The single best use of the warp prism in PvP for me has been when you know that they are going for colossus and you've already gotten enough immortals to know you are way behind... there's a timing push you can do where you just drop two immortals at the feet of their colossus. Since they are so zealot heavy (they have to be to be ahead of you with colossus + range) they cant shoot the WP down and their colossus either get picked off ultra fast by the immortals or the colossus has to run and thus, do no damage. If you miss your timing here and they end up with either too many colossus or the dps to snipe your warp prism then this wont work. I've never been successful if they had more than 2 colossus at the time of my push. Way late game PvP. Anything can happen but warp-ins generally make the warp prism an unreliable luxury at this stage of the game. Warp Prisms have their place in the protoss arsenal for sure, but the reason they aren't seen a ton in PvT is lack of understand by protoss, in PvZ is the map control overlords provide and how resillient zerg is to drop damage, and in PvP is its risky (at least until 1.3 maybe) | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Finally, I feel there's no need to build a warp prism when a conveniently placed and hidden pylon can accomplish just as much for a lot less, especially late game to harass expansions with a couple of zealots/DTs when opponent armies are far away (especially immobile terrans). | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
1. Early game problem. Units for harassment need to be relatively cheap or very good at doing high dps, preferrably with range so workers can't escape. Zealots/stalkers/sentries are generally weak when dropped. 4 Zealots probably the best bet, like WhiteRa. But still risky. 2. It's a suicide mission usually. Compounds point 1, because those units are expensive. 3. No amulet for HT. 4. Queens and vikings have insane range and are common in the matchups. Great at killing warp prisms. 5. Time taken up when you need to make colossus, observer. The factory got reduced cost... I'm thinking Robotics might benefit from a reduced cost. I'm really hoping that HotS has a hell of a harass unit for Protoss. Where's the reaver? Zerg have banelings and mutas, T have stimmed bio and blueflame hellions. All that comes at midgame easily. Protoss only have Dark Templar and zealot warpins by that time. More expensive and more easily dealt with. | ||
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dLKnighT
Canada735 Posts
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ZoneofEnders
Canada71 Posts
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UnmortaI
Canada35 Posts
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Wedberg
Sweden169 Posts
On May 04 2011 08:31 UnmortaI wrote: What doesn't seem to fit with protoss is that warp prism flies; so shouldn't it be in stargates? It's a robot, therefore it's at the robo facility. | ||
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thebole1
Serbia126 Posts
i am for more drops more sige tanks more mecha less bio builds less banglings less colloss... there is plenty of good things that this game have 2 offer than this few unites...but simply stim banglings colloss do trumendus dps.... | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
Protoss, how they are currently played, has no need to slow down other race's production/tech, they need to focus on their own. The Protoss has the best and most effective 200/200 army, so if both players get there, the Protoss is at an advantage. They don't need to slow down others, they just need to not be slowed down themselves. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
just an opinion that 8 supply of terran units is more scary than 8 supply of protoss. the idea that 10 less hp on a warp prism, makes it drastically easier to kill over a medivac. completely ignoring the fact that its cheaper to build. then coming along with the point that overlord drops are a 1 time research, but adding a new robo purely for dropship production is a CHEAPER 1 time "research" for dropping. completely breezing past the rediculous power of warp in from your dropship, meaning you effectively carry as many units as you have gates +4. the op said he didnt want an imbalance whine but he is also clearly showing a huge protoss bias, shrouded behind "facts" that are just opinions. | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
A very effective move in my opinion. Of course, I was a bit slow to react, because so few Protoss drop! | ||
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Nyghtwatch
1 Post
I had an experience a couple days ago that I want to share with you guys. I was playing Zerg in diamond league versus this protoss player. What he did was in early-midgame, just around the time my lair was finishing, he moved a warp prism into my base near the ramp and blocked my ramp with forcefields casted by sentries in my main. My lings were all stuck below the ramp, allowing his zeals to cause major damage in my main. He kept warping in more troops too, leading to serious damage to my economy and tech. I saw a VOD of a pro that did this. Can't remember who it was. It ended up being effective and won him the game, but barely. What I do, mostly, with the warp prism is drop in the corner of the main, draw units away from the front, then attack the natural (and FF the ramp). I lose the dropped in force but I roll over the nat. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
I think you hit all the main points in the OP, except for this one: The great thing about well-executed drops is that they can do even a moderate amount of damage to your opponent's economy/infrastructure, and then retreat with minimal losses. You see this most often with Terran, but good Zergs will do it too with their Roach/Hydra drops. The problem then is that if a Protoss version of a drop means dropping 4 Zealots/Stalkers and then warping in units to the power field, that Warp Prism can only retreat with 4 Zealots/Stalkers, effectively stranding all of the units you warped in. This makes Protoss drops a lot riskier than their Terran/Zerg alternatives and you almost have to guarantee damage for it to be worth it, which is never solid play. In the future I think we might see Protoss players cruising around with 2-3 empty warp prisms, finding a place to hit, warping in, and then using those warp prisms to get the units out as their opponent responds accordingly. Takes a bit more micro than a regular drop, but with the benefit that the units do not need to be produced before the Warp Prisms set out from your base, your WG's just have to be off cooldown. Why do a round of warp-ins at your natural when you can do it behind your opponent's third? Especially when you can escape with most of said units while dealing economic/structural damage. | ||
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j3dy
Bulgaria5 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
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MechKing
United States3004 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:50 Shana wrote: Storm nerfed, Reaver removed and DT is so high in tech. It's not because warp prism but mainly because Toss has no good harassment unit. I think this is mainly it. Marines and marauders kill units/workers super quickly. Zealots are slow and melee units and stalkers' dps isn't high enough to kill buildings quick. Carrying only 4 of them doesn't help either. | ||
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