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On May 07 2011 01:08 PaPoolee wrote:
What i was thinking of is in PvT, You use Warp Prisms to carry Ht's so they don't get EMP'd, and then drop them during the fight and storm really quickly! but the micro is just O.O...
ive seen MC do that. but not recently.
but i just find warp prisms dont scale as well together, as mentioned earlier in this thread. All we get is the ability to warp in and carry 4 units. We dont have a unit that can do alot of damage even against retreating workers.
Another point that i have yet to see in this thread yet, may be wrong though.(20 pages is alot)
But in most games a protoss its usually only viable to drop really early, or late game. Now in the mid late game. What do alot of maps have around their 2nd or 3rd base? A cliff. Take tal da rim altar for example. The natural, A colossus walking up behind that mineral line, is 100 times more effective than using a warp prism and extremely safe since you can bring your army down as well. So basically our replacement for Mechanical aoe over the reaver is the colossus and the colosus just isnt worth putting into a warp prism.
Basically the warp prism is a unit that can only really drop, and protoss doesnt have anything to put in it to do an effective drop. The warp in mechanic is made useless by a pylon. Unless the protoss wants to throw units away in the drop.
Another thing, what would it be like if the warp prism got like a shield generator ability or something else to compliment the army besides something a pylon can do. and pylons cant be shot by AA. Which is another thing that is super prevalent in the current meta game, making a probe build pylons everywhere a much more effective use of warp gates. Something to think about.
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On May 07 2011 01:16 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 01:03 SoundProof wrote:
To further this idea, a +3 archon can one shot scvs and drones, perhaps making it more viable in the late game, though it is a lot weaker versus probes. Just a thought. Thing is, if you have Templar tech and upgrades, it will almost always be better to use Chargelots. An all-mineral harass is almost always the best, especially considering how cheap Chargelots are compared to Archons.
Maybe thats the problem.
People are not willing to use gas to harass mineral line as protoss. Like many have mentioned before zeolot harass just isn't good enough. However if we look at zerg players who invest heavily in muta (gas heavy) to harass and help fight the enemy, so why can't we do the same? Archons are a great addition in your army composition with adjustable cost, might as well use them like muta and harass the crap out of min lines.
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Meh, I have been trying to use them a lot more lately. I think it's fine as long as you put down robo bay as soon as robo facility is finished, chrono out two observers, and a warp, prism. Everything should get out before the bay is done, and losing that extra immortal is meh, not that noticeable.
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I thought about dropping as Protoss quite a while ago - and I would really like to harass some more. But here is how I think about drops:
If you're playing against a Protoss and you're scouting a Robo, the first thing that comes to your mind is: He's building a Colossus!
Therefore, you will build units that can counter the Colossus - just like Vikings or Corruptors. Now let's think about units that can shut down your drop in an instant ... yeah, Vikings and Corruptors :- )
Of course you can still pull of a drop - but losing your whole drop _and_ the prism is nearly guaranteed. Therefore, I don't think it is worth the investment.
And for the PvP matchup, where air units aren't guaranteed: He can warp in units as fast as you can. I really think that the prism is most effective in that matchup anyways - if he just spent his warpins for example.
As for mid to late game drops: Dropping DTs is quite powerful, but since DTs can't shoot and aren't that fast, pulling your workers away can limit the damage dealt by the harass tremendously. But it is still very useful in my opinion (actually, it's the only drop that has worked for me), just because you're pressuring him.
And for the insane double-templar storm drop: If you have Robo & Storm-tech and you are able to outmaneuver your enemies air units and you can actually land your units because the turrets are badly placed and you don't need two vital storms in your deathball ... then it might be pretty good. Or perhaps not, because to be completely honest, killing SCVs in the ultra late game isn't that important anymore. Especially because there is no need for my enemy to bring back his army - after two storms, two templars (even as an archon) aren't that scary. Of course it isn't bad - but I would prefer crushing that whole expansion with my army by then - and landing two storms in his defense force might be more powerful.
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I dont understand how 200 minerals are harder to spare than 100 gas or 200/200 for zergs, it's not like anyone would go mass warp prism drop. plus you can get 8 units because it drops as well as warps in simultaniously
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I think the obvious solution is this...
Build a Mothership.
Warp in as many units as you can to opponents base.
When it's time to retreat, recall! to front of base. where the rest of your army is waiting.
GG!!
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On May 07 2011 02:54 Murdoc.Z wrote:
I dont understand how 200 minerals are harder to spare than 100 gas or 200/200 for zergs, it's not like anyone would go mass warp prism drop. plus you can get 8 units because it drops as well as warps in simultaniously
Zergs and terrans have other reasons to build overlords and medivacs. When it comes for zergs to research drops they get all of their overlords. Making the drops effective for mass units, and banelings make small number of unit drops possible. Overlords are also used to tank damage and drop banelings over sentries and other units, or drops initiating combat so the zerg ball doesnt take splash.Terrans have medivacs, which are extremely useful when building bio. Meaning that these 2 drop mechanics are not just for harassment and have purpose outside of that role. One could also argue that zerg has to pay for overlord speed, but that speed upgrade also allows overlords to keep up with the zerg army, Scout and not get picked off as easily.
While protoss has ability to warpin, you could just build a pylon behind your forces. Its cheaper and doesnt take up robo time. Making the secondary ability on the warp prism near useless. As while yes you can get 8 units but you also will lose 4 during a drop regardless of the damage done, Making the cost effectiveness quite terrible. While terran and zerg can just pack up and leave with all units.
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In all honesty, I feel like they should buff Warp Prisms. Would there be anything imbalanced if they did? =X
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TLADT24920 Posts
I think The Final Boss hit the nail on the head with his post. Nothing wrap with prisms, they just aren't much used atm because there is no reason to do drops as P.
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On May 07 2011 03:23 ScythedBlade wrote:
In all honesty, I feel like they should buff Warp Prisms. Would there be anything imbalanced if they did? =X
Yes, there is always the possibility for imbalance.
If they are made too durable, suddenly protoss is given a very safe way to attack weak points. Drop stalkers/immortals, retreat in your super tanky warp prisms, having done "free" damage.
If they are made to fast, it may give protoss too much mobility. High templar zipping around the map no problem.
If they are allowed to carry more, protoss drops may end up having too much raw power, as they attack your weakest point with a full warp in combined with a high supply count cargo.
I'm not saying that buffs to warp prisms are guaranteed to cause game imbalance, but it is always possible that buffs wreck balance.
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On May 07 2011 03:29 BigFan wrote:
I think The Final Boss hit the nail on the head with his post. Nothing wrap with prisms, they just aren't much used atm because there is no reason to do drops as P.
nope you just don't gain much from it
the risk reward is just not good,
though if you can catch an opponent off guard sure it can lead to a win, still a good terran puts up turrets making drops impossible anyway.
dropeffectiveness is very mapspecific.
a terran can afford to even lose a drop cause bunkers will keep him safe, Protoss doesn't have that luxury.
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I've always thought the warp prism should move slightly faster then it does.
The main thing for me is how fragile the warp prism is, There is a good chance that I'm going to lose it so like someone earlier said I have to be able to do significant damage with it, especially since if I lose it and have my units stranded in his base (either 4 or 8 units depending on if I got a warp in or not).
Something I haven't seen addressed is that unlike the other drop ships, a prism gets exponentially stronger later in the game, not only because of the speed upgrade should you choose to get it ( I personally don't think that I ever have ) but because Protosse's gateway count goes up dramatically as he nears the 200 mark. Protoss has the ability to do a 20 unit drop with dt's, stalkers, zealots.. Easy to do some very significant damage.
I think everyone agrees that the reason it is so fragile and must be is because you can warp in additional units with it.Personally I have always thought that the warp prism should have 1 or 2 armor, this would make it more feasible as an actual drop ship, but to still keep it balanced as an ''ability unit'' (for lack of a better term ) when it's in prism mode it is unarmored, you could justify it from an ''rp'' perspective by saying that its more vulnerable in that position and when it's wings are expanded.
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In my opinion protoss drops are rare not because of the warp prism (warp prism is fine), but because of the units available to drop. They are all pretty hard to use efficiently and protoss bio really haven't been used alot hence protoss bio haven't been experimented with as much. (hoping the PTR changes will change this, I know I for one are gonna become the protoss bio king) I am sure when people starts to experiment with protoss bio we will start to see some wicked versatile drop play :D
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The speed guys!
I know that an argument for not going for warp prisms is the fact that they eat away observer and colossi build time. Why not just stop building colossi until late game and then focus on warp prism speed, observers and warp prisms to gain map control and expand while getting a shit ton of void rays and colossi ?
And to people who say that it is not cost effective or hard to make it work: force it to work! Multiple drops or just drop a templar near your opponents army - storm the #¤%& out off everything! And then use the ultra fast 3.375 speed void prism to escape with no loses! ^^
This IMO is ten times more fun than the usual 2/3 base death ball push. Also makes the games more interesting for others that might watch ^^
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On May 07 2011 01:29 ClueLessx3 wrote:
Maybe thats the problem.
People are not willing to use gas to harass mineral line as protoss. Like many have mentioned before zeolot harass just isn't good enough. However if we look at zerg players who invest heavily in muta (gas heavy) to harass and help fight the enemy, so why can't we do the same? Archons are a great addition in your army composition with adjustable cost, might as well use them like muta and harass the crap out of min lines.
Strongly disagree.
Chargelots + Warp Prisms are AMAZING harassment, assuming the enemy doesn't have AtA out in force. The problem I see is that Templar tech plus Robo tech are completely different paths, so this is left for very late game harassment. Protoss don't really have an early-mid game harassment other than Stargate tech. I don't count DTs as I feel they are used quite badly by a lot of people at the moment (if I'm asked to elaborate I will, but it seems unecessary atm) and their proper role hasn't been figured out. My suspicions are that DTs will become a lategame option as well, as you sacrifice far too much tech/army to get DTs out in the mid game and DTs become exponentially more powerful the more bases your enemy has (like most harassment).
What I really want to see is a PvT where Protoss has gone mass Gateway style (early Council, upgrades etc) and then, while taking 3rd base, gone for Robo Facility to get Observer/Warp Prisms (and very delayed Colossus). Then start harassing with Warp Prism plus a few Chargelots. Eventually, once Robo Bay is up and Colossi are getting made (with Lance finished), Prism Speed should be researched. Continue harassing, but better etc. Eventually, get DTs and use 2 Warp Prisms loaded with Chargelots to go in and attack. Focus down Turrets, then workers. Then warp in as many DTs as possible and go on the rampage! Seems quite solid to me, and would work against Mech as well as Bio.
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On May 07 2011 04:21 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 01:29 ClueLessx3 wrote:
Maybe thats the problem.
People are not willing to use gas to harass mineral line as protoss. Like many have mentioned before zeolot harass just isn't good enough. However if we look at zerg players who invest heavily in muta (gas heavy) to harass and help fight the enemy, so why can't we do the same? Archons are a great addition in your army composition with adjustable cost, might as well use them like muta and harass the crap out of min lines. Strongly disagree. Chargelots + Warp Prisms are AMAZING harassment, assuming the enemy doesn't have AtA out in force. The problem I see is that Templar tech plus Robo tech are completely different paths [..snip..]
No, no they are NOT amazing harassment *at all*. Have you played against solid opponents? The moment the workers start to flee the mineral line, your harassment damage is reduced to nothing. Literally: zero. The chargelots can charge once, strike once, then the workers are out of range and STILL outrunning chargelots even after the charge passive speed boost (+0.5 to 2.75). If anything, you might get one or two escapees. 10 seconds later you can charge again, but if the opponent can't respond with SOME attacking units in 10 seconds, that's a lucky or very well/specifically timed drop. You could switch to targeting a depot or pylon, but it takes 7 swings from all 4 zealots with +1 to kill the depot - that's 10 seconds too. Are you going to risk losing 400 minerals of zealots to kill one supply building that likely won't even supply cap an opponent at that stage of the game?
At least 4 stalkers can one-shot workers as they flee, but that's still going to get you 4-7 workers.
Compare this to marine drops: 6 shots from +1 marines to kill a worker. Shots take just over half a second. 8 marines drop and stim - this means you're killing over 2 workers A SECOND at range and with no additional micro required - micro only makes it more powerful, but they'll do a fine job on their own A-moved. You're almost guaranteed to get at LEAST 8 workers, compared to a Protoss drop that's going to get at MOST 8 workers against a competent player.
There's a reason Warp Prisms aren't that popular, and it's not the Warp Prism itself. Just like a dozen people have said in this thread - it's the units that are dropped that are the problem, they cannot kill workers or buildings nearly as fast as competing drops. It's the nature of Protoss - it's not necessarily a problem, but it's the reason Warp Prisms are underused.
The rest of your argument, requiring templar+robo tech, or suggesting that Protoss goes mass gateway until 3 base, just further undermines the credibility of the above. The reason Protoss doesn't go mass gateway until 3 base is because they will generally die to strong mass ball pushes from the other races.
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On May 07 2011 04:49 Polatrite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:21 SeaSwift wrote:On May 07 2011 01:29 ClueLessx3 wrote:
Maybe thats the problem.
People are not willing to use gas to harass mineral line as protoss. Like many have mentioned before zeolot harass just isn't good enough. However if we look at zerg players who invest heavily in muta (gas heavy) to harass and help fight the enemy, so why can't we do the same? Archons are a great addition in your army composition with adjustable cost, might as well use them like muta and harass the crap out of min lines. Strongly disagree. Chargelots + Warp Prisms are AMAZING harassment, assuming the enemy doesn't have AtA out in force. The problem I see is that Templar tech plus Robo tech are completely different paths [..snip..] No, no they are NOT amazing harassment *at all*. Have you played against solid opponents? The moment the workers start to flee the mineral line, your harassment damage is reduced to nothing. Literally: zero. The chargelots can charge once, strike once, then the workers are out of range and STILL outrunning chargelots even after the charge passive speed boost (+0.5 to 2.75). If anything, you might get one or two escapees. 10 seconds later you can charge again, but if the opponent can't respond with SOME attacking units in 10 seconds, that's a lucky or very well/specifically timed drop. You could switch to targeting a depot or pylon, but it takes 7 swings from all 4 zealots with +1 to kill the depot - that's 10 seconds too. Are you going to risk losing 400 minerals of zealots to kill one supply building that likely won't even supply cap an opponent at that stage of the game? At least 4 stalkers can one-shot workers as they flee, but that's still going to get you 4-7 workers. Compare this to marine drops: 6 shots from +1 marines to kill a worker. Shots take just over half a second. 8 marines drop and stim - this means you're killing over 2 workers A SECOND at range and with no additional micro required - micro only makes it more powerful, but they'll do a fine job on their own A-moved. You're almost guaranteed to get at LEAST 8 workers, compared to a Protoss drop that's going to get at MOST 8 workers against a competent player. There's a reason Warp Prisms aren't that popular, and it's not the Warp Prism itself. Just like a dozen people have said in this thread - it's the units that are dropped that are the problem, they cannot kill workers or buildings nearly as fast as competing drops. It's the nature of Protoss - it's not necessarily a problem, but it's the reason Warp Prisms are underused. The rest of your argument, requiring templar+robo tech, or suggesting that Protoss goes mass gateway until 3 base, just further undermines the credibility of the above. The reason Protoss doesn't go mass gateway until 3 base is because they will generally die to strong mass ball pushes from the other races.
This. You want to drop units which are high-dps and low-cost when you are doing anything but a doom drop, because the risk is very low compared to the potential reward.
The reason terrans drop so frequently is because 1 medivac worth of marines with stim will kill many, many workers, even if the reaction is quick, and two medivacs full of marauders can kill every pylon in a base in a short period of time, and if you lose a medivac full of marines or a couple of medivacs full of marauders, but you were able to have the run of the base for 30 seconds or so, you're ahead.
Similarly, zergling drops are cheap and expendible, and 8-16 zerglings going to work in a mineral line are going to do a lot of damage. They're not as effective as marine drops, so they're not used as often, but the complete loss of all the forces they dropped is literally inconsequential to the zerg unless they're starved. Similarly, banelings are more expensive than zerglings, but the potential reward is much higher - being unprepared for only a second might lose you all your workers immediately.
Now think about the units that protoss might want to drop. 4 chargelots only cost as much as a medivac full of marines, but if you get them into the mineral line, they're going to kill a few SCVs at most, and there's no way they'll kill even one building before they're dealt with. 4 stalkers would be detracting from that critical number of stalkers you need in your deathball to protect yourself from anti-air, and they're more expensive with even less DPS. DTs can be good - they can wreck an unprepared opponent, so dropping them can actually be a good idea, but it's situational. They're good only if your opponent has no in-base detection presently available AND his units are away from the base. And 2 DTs are hideously expensive to a gas-starved protoss. An immortal drop is good situationally in PvP, but is not good for harassment, so again, it's a niche drop.
Essentially, protoss don't really have particularly good (by good, I mean high reward, low risk) drop options that the other races do. I'm not complaining - that's fine, we have other ways to harass. Additionally, I think protoss gateway unit harass might be very valuable coupled with an assault on the front - deathball in front, zealots in the main - but this is better accomplished with a pylon and an obs, as it uses less robo time, is cheaper, and you don't have to worry about a couple of marines or a queen picking off the warp prism.
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I find it odd, that you don't mention the fact that you can load a warp prism up with 4 units, and then warp in any number of units after its in position, thereby able to drop a larger number of units than any other single transport in the game.
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I think MorroW pretty much nailed it in his post a couple pages back.
Overall, it is fine the way it is though. I guess it could stand to be a little bit more durable, but not much. A good suggestion I read on here was to combine warp prism and observer speed into the same upgrade. I don't think many people would be opposed to that from any race.
I play protoss, use them frequently in masters, and think they would be fine if left alone, though I wouldnt mind the suggestions in my above paragraph
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EPT
