EPTWhy Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 7
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
You can say this is a mid-end game thing, but it's the exact same with terran and more so zerg. Terran I can go for an insanely fast drop, but it won't be safe either, and I don't want that fast of a drop sometimes. I want to have a force outside and in so I can poke and prod and break them. This is much more that the protoss metagame hasn't evolved imo, and chooses not to. White Ra uses them insanely well. | ||
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BlindSC2
United Kingdom435 Posts
They can be sort of decent in PvP if the opponent is on 2+ bases, so long as they dont go blink or stargate. If It becomes the classic colossi vs colossi battle it can be pretty effective dropping the mineral line, 4 zealots (or 8 if you do a warp in as well) can WRECK a mineral line so fast or very quickly take out a tech structure. You need a hefty amount of units to effectively deal with 8 zealots in the base targetting your tech, at which point you strike the front I watch whiteras stream as much as possible and I love his use of it with HTs, protecting from emp/going to storm mineral lines. Warp prisms ironically massively favour mass gateway styles sort of like adelscotts, and since most games youll get a robo at some point later on for observers and maybe a big shift to 2 or 3 robo colossi in the late game, warp prisms should be added in more and more if the mechanics of the player are there Also, with the mass gate style, typically you get double forges nowadays. I assume the shield upgrade affects the warp prism, but does the ground or air armour affect it also? | ||
Falling
Canada11322 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:46 NicolBolas wrote: All of these points could be used against the Shuttle from SC1. Really, the only reason you don't see more Prism usage is because of the lack of a droppable unit that can do serious damage. There's no equivalent to a Reaver (the primary thing people carried in Shuttles). Immortal drops would be strong at picking off tech structures quickly, but that's about it. Storm drops still work, but that's pretty late-game stuff. Others have highlighted this post, but it sums it up perfectly. Hit points and cost can be over-come if there is an over-riding use for the warp-prism. And with hitpoints, there is also the gravitic drive, which arguably is better than more hitpoints. But what exactly are you going to drop? 4 zealots? Maybe you're best bet. 2-4 stalkers? (Haven't tried dropping these in awhile) A couple immortals? DPS is such that they'd get sniped too fast and can't clean out worker lines. Collosi? Better using their mobility and strength on the ground that making them more vulnerable and defenseless in a warp prism. Maybe DT's, but even they don't seem quite as useful (late tech) as their BW conterparts. Storm drops used to be amazing in BW, but because of smart casting the power of storms have been decreased. I remember in beta needing to drop 3-4 storms to clean out an un-microed scv line... Last time I ever tried storm dropping. Even getting 1 storm on a mineral line would be killer and getting 2 would wipe out an un-microed worker line. It's just not worth losing 1-2 templars with a warprism to severely damage, but not kill workers that'll either recharge shields or heal overtime. Then there were reavers that if they got a shot off, would destroy 1/3 to half a worker line. Very much worth micro-ing speed shuttles. Even 4 speed zealots could do a decent amount of damage. | ||
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
Or I might just be too low level to the point that stuff like this works. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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Geos13
437 Posts
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:25 kzn wrote: Defenders advantage alone makes that possible, which doesn't deal with the fact that Protoss, more than Terran or Zerg, needs a single deathball to come out on top in engagements before Storm, and pretty much nobody has disagreed that storm drops are probably much more effective than the amount of use they've seen so far suggests. Drops never win engagements. They're always meant to do as much damage as possible before the army arrives. If you're talking about moving out while dropping. Either he has to move part of his army back to defend the drop, which can give you the advantage in the main engagement, or he tries to engage your (lesser) main army, but you can delay that engagement with forcefields while your drop does more damage. | ||
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rickybobby
United States405 Posts
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:39 `ChroMaTe_ wrote: 4. Cargo Capacity All three cargo transports can carry a maximum of 8 supply worth of units. However, Protoss does not have a 1 supply unit other than the Probe. At least, our drops would consist of 4 Zealots, 4 Stalkers or a mix of both. Sure, the argument would be "Just make more Prisms", but take into consideration Point 2 and how that takes time from the Robotics Facility. Medivacs can carry 8 Marines, a scary drop, and Overlords can carry 8 Zerglings. The ability to only drop 4 units at a time appeals even less to the Protoss player and would once again, refrain from dropping. i think the cargo capacity is bologna 4 zealots > 8 zerglings (also 4 zealots is an 8 supply drop 8 lings is a 4 supply drop) you gotta at least argue it from the roach point of view it isnt about the specific number of units (4 or 8) but the quality and the ways you can use them the purpose of marine drops is mainly to kill workers marauder drop to snipe buildings roach drop for both, whatever you can get a stalker drop seems useless in my head.. the outright dps of stalkers isn't high and they don't scale well with upgrades but someone may prove me wrong as for zealots they have very high dps but without charge they will be killed very easily by reinforcing units pvt, and in pvz zealots arent very good against roaches however it still may work with charge ive seen double-forge players pvt get the robo only for a couple observers.. you could work a warp prism or 2 in and do some zealot drops that would seem to be the ideal situation for drops imo | ||
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SilverJohnny
United States885 Posts
in general prism speed and obs speed are way underused, just as a side note. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
most storm drops i saw a few months back, the high level players were pretty damn fast at moving workers out of the storm before the HT's cost was justified. it's not like a fungal harass where the workers are guaranteed to die. not saying it isn't worth trying more, tho. i do think top protoss players will start bringing prisms on largescale engagements. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
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Sir Snoopy
United States57 Posts
I honestly think that it has nothing to do with the Prism itself, I think that it's that there's nothing I want to drop on the enemy. Baneling bombs are great and roach drops are killer and MM drops are cruel, but 4 zealots simply can't fight any kind of defense force until very very late game. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:31 Rokk wrote: Drops never win engagements. They're always meant to do as much damage as possible before the army arrives. If you're talking about moving out while dropping. Either he has to move part of his army back to defend the drop, which can give you the advantage in the main engagement, or he tries to engage your (lesser) main army, but you can delay that engagement with forcefields while your drop does more damage. There are two kind of drops: the first is a damage dealing drop. Deal damage while your enemy's army is out of position, then escape when they show up for free damage. The second, and more useful in general kind, is the distraction. You drop a few units, and basically say to the enemy "pull back your army to this location, or suffer some significant damage." This is important because you don't actually care if the drop doesn't do damage, you're using it to control your enemy's army positioning. If it does damage, cool, you didn't get your big attack off, but damage is damage, you'll take it. | ||
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Xog2
United States97 Posts
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
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alepov
Netherlands1132 Posts
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