|
I can see the taking of the production slot argument early/mid game over a colossus is a valid one as the importance of the colossus is pretty incredible for some but as the game goes on I still question as to why Protoss doesn't use them. If a terran sees colossus he now needs to strike a balance himself between whether he wants to build medivacs or vikings. Additionally, it most likely also means there is a reactor on that starport as 2x starport may not yet be sustainable. This in turn now restricts the building of a banshee or a raven without some building dancing. So in a sense, other races have to make sacrifices as well.
Though I have to disagree with most of your points for a few reasons.
Comparing their HP to overlords isn't a terribly fair comparison. Overlords are a supply farm unit and to put them at any less HP would lead to some terribly abusable OL harass strats vs Terran I would think, or even phoenix/void rays. Additionally, their research is actually a little more as you have to consider lair tech as well as speed, at least another 200 gas (I don't think anyone's dropping with .47 speed overlords).
I think you overlook that secondary effect, citing that they can be picked off and the warp in canceled is a bit weak. Any other transport dropping and getting picked off will lose it the units inside. Zerg has more to lose as they will also lose a supply cap unit which they may have to rebuild. Even though that's 8 zerglings or 8 marines, that's still 200 and 400 minerals respectively. The numbers they lose really don't matter as the point is they will most likely lose their transport and their cargo. Should the warp prism die mid warp, you not only receive your money back from the still warping units, but the cooldowns as well, so really you're just out the 200 minerals.
Additionally if you consider the fact that it takes 8 seconds for Zerg and Terran to drop 8 food worth of units from their cargo, the warp prism can actually transport far more food in shorter time. Curiously I jumped into unit tester to see how much you could actually fit on a warp prism's powerfield. You can warp in about 25 stalkers, and about 34 zealots (clarification: individually, not simultaneously heh). Though no one will ever do that, a more realistic number could be 10 stalkers, or 10 zealots, or that, plus a mix of dts. Considering the fact that as the game goes on it's highly likely the protoss will be warping off of 10+ gates. There's really no other transport that has the potential to do that unless a vast number of them are being used. In Zerg's case that might mean the potential to lose important supply cap unit which will allow for their army to be replenished as now larva have to spent on overlords lost from a failed drop. Terran instead has to sacrifice a pretty steep gas price which will consequently also effect unit composition.
Other than the nydus worm, there's really no other unit that has the ability to transport *supply* (as opposed to actual unit count) of that number for such a little cost.
But getting on to why they aren't used, I'd have to say the reason is simply that unless you know where an opposing army is, you'd rather not risk blowing 10 warpgate cooldowns when you'll most likely need them to be with your army. Additionally, I don't think there has been a build promoted enough to encourage this. A lot of the trends in this game we see are from the top tier players and with all due respect to White-Ra, there are some other Protoss players out there that are having more prestigious success, as a result we seem to follow strategies and playstyles they can emulate that are winning tournaments (this goes for all races).
I truly don't think the HP is the issue. If anything I think their HP totally justifies the potential they have. We see a lot of terran drops that happen in the vision of an opponents base, Warp Prisms don't really need to be done like this, they can sit off on the edge of the fog and warp. Their upgrade is also pretty awesome, and after you've already got your colossus research you may as well get a warp prism with speed for later.
|
Can a WP with speed upgrade outrun a viking?
|
United States7483 Posts
On May 03 2011 09:16 Zidane wrote:
Can a WP with speed upgrade outrun a viking?
Yes, yes it can, assuming it lives long enough to turn around and run directly away from it. Which is unlikely, since it's made of paper.
|
Biggest thing is you're generally using robos to make more "important" units that taking the time to even get out of a prism is a big risk.
|
Zerg player's have overlords already for supply. Terran players get Medivacs as part of their standard army.
|
I think the author's point about droppable units is the most salient. zealots are probably the least useful harass units. They buy time rather than kill miners. Lings and Rines do a better job of straight up killing workers (though arguably might die a touch faster than the zels do).
Collosi drop is risky and those and storm drops are not quite the reaver shells we miss.
|
I think the Protoss tech choices are too unflexable, but that is the Style of the race itself. And right now it is balanced, but to encorperate WPs it would help a lot to make them not so all-in-ish to produce
|
On May 03 2011 06:39 `ChroMaTe_ wrote:
The Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, not exactly cheap. Medivacs cost 100/100 and Overlords cost just 100, with the research to be able to drop costing 200/200, which is only a one time cost, so the more drops you use the more cost efficient the research becomes. However, where are these units made? Medivacs from Starports, which in most cases are going to be producing Medivacs during the whole game. Overlords from Larvae of course and are staple. However, the Warp Prism is made from the Robotics, taking away crucial time that an Immortal or Colossi could be building at. My point is that from the Protoss' perspective, making a Warp Prism even to start with is a choice that might come back and bite them later in the game.
Here's a couple of problems with this point:
- Warp Prisms are the only of those dropping units that you do not need to invest gas in.
- Overlord drops without speed upgrade? Are you kidding me? Let's be realistic Z has to invest 300/300 into two very costly upgrades. Assuming that Z is on two base when they get those upgrades, that's also a lot of time that they cannot be researching Burrow or making Queens.
- I don't know if you have ever played TvP before, but when you're going up against a P who is making a lot of Colossi, it is imperative that you have at least 1 reactor Starport making lots of Vikings. This seriously cuts into Terran Medivac production and makes using one to go harass with exceedingly hard to do unless they create a second reactor Starport. That costs 200 minerals 150 gas and at the very least 100 seconds. That's a lot of resources and time for a Terran to be investing just into medivacs.
- So sure, P's need to cut Colossi or Immortal production to make their Warp Prisms, but so does every other race.
4. Cargo Capacity
All three cargo transports can carry a maximum of 8 supply worth of units. However, Protoss does not have a 1 supply unit other than the Probe. At least, our drops would consist of 4 Zealots, 4 Stalkers or a mix of both. Sure, the argument would be "Just make more Prisms", but take into consideration Point 2 and how that takes time from the Robotics Facility. Medivacs can carry 8 Marines, a scary drop, and Overlords can carry 8 Zerglings. The ability to only drop 4 units at a time appeals even less to the Protoss player and would once again, refrain from dropping.
- The most effective drops for T or Z usually use 2 supply units anyways. The best drops are either Hellion Drops for T (4 hellions max) or Baneling Drops for Z (4 Banes max). Each of those can deal massive damage in a matter of seconds to an unsuspecting opponent by killing entire lines of drones/scvs/probes. Of course, P has a unit that is also ridiculously good for these sorts of mineral line harass that kills off many workers very quickly.
- Once again, taking time out of Colossi production is just like how a Terran takes time out of Medivac production to create Vikings. I do not believe that that is really a valid point whatsoever.
- Why does your drop need to consist of Gateway units? Why not be more interesting and drop a few DTs. That could take a T or a Z forever to finally clear them out of their base. Or how about dropping two Immortals and trying to snipe Supply Depots or Add-ons?
- As I was saying earlier, P can load a Templar or two into a Warp Prism and go around storming mineral lines. Sure your Templar cannot be used in a rush manner like blue hellions, but later on they could be very useful. Maybe get speed on your Prism and quickly fly in a Templar, storm, and fly away before your opponent even has time to pull their workers.
- Sure those suggestions above (DTs, Immortals, Templar, maybe even Colossi) are all high tech units. But who's to say that a couple of Zealots dropped in a Terran's base right as their army moves out couldn't force them to completely come back, possibly kill some SCVs, and definitely delay some mining time?
One final point I would like to bring up as to why I think Protoss drops could be very effective were there any reason for a Protoss to harass (let's face it sitting back and macroing up that A-move death ball is so strong right now there's no reason not to just focus on that) is that Warp Prisms are the fastest of all dropping units. While I do not believe they are as good for mass drops like Overlords or Medivacs (because they do cost a lot of resources and do not have much of a secondary use), but hey having one Warp Prism could allow you to quickly transport your High Templars, keep them safe from any sort of EMP, and also allow you to quickly move in and completely destroy a mineral line. I don't know if any of you have seen a speed upgraded Warp Prism (I had played quite a while before I ever saw how fast it went) and I can say that it is ridiculous and quite surprising. For instance, when you do Baneling/Zergling in ZvP, the P has a very small window to react to your baneling drops on their mineral line or else they will possibly lose the entire game and certainly lose their probes. Now imagine that time is even less (and storms can be equally as effective and more cost efficient then baneling drops as you don't lose any units, just energy).
Like I mentioned in the above paragraph, I think it would be really interesting as a T player to see a P try to do some drop ship micro and just keep their Templar in their Warp Prisms to make EMPs almost impossible to land. Sure it would require exceedingly good micro, but when you want to storm you drop a Templar, storm, and pick the Prism back up. Until the fight, of course, you'd keep your prism well behind the Stalkers. Perhaps this would require some crazy good micro, but I think that if it were done effectively it could prove to create the Templar as being near impossible to beat with a Terran bio army as they could not be EMPed.
Protoss players just need to be more inventive with their builds (I mean let's face it even at the highest level you still have players doing 4 gates in all match-ups and they hardly ever deviate from those early game, warp gate all-ins). Granted there are some great top tier P's ( White-Ra <3) who are exceedingly creative. Then you have players like Choya or CrunCher with very repetitive play and no idea what harassment is.
|
Another thing is that most gateway units (perhaps with the exception of HT/DT) just make for poor harassment units. Workers can run away from zealots, and the DPS of 4 stalkers is laughable compared to that of 8 marines with stim. The real DPS units, like Collossi and Immortals(If you're sniping buildings) Are usually too valuable to risk in the flimsy warp prism. The nice thing for Terran is that their highest DPS units are also their cheapest. Marines are balanced by their low health, which ideally plays no role at all in drop harassment.
Also, the prism's secondary mechanic, warp-in, is meant to add to the strength of a drop by allowing it to bring in units beyond its carrying capacity. However, this ends up hurting it in most situations, because it essentially eliminates the option of retreat. Terran can drop in when their opponent is out of position, snipe some buildings, and pick up and leave by the time defenses arrive, losing nothing. Meanwhile, if Protoss warp units in for extra DPS, the drop is suddenly a suicide mission, with the option of escape only for some of the units.
I really do hope we'll see more warp prism play in the future; I think HT/DT drops in particular still haven't been used to their full potential, but I'm not holding my breath. The synergy just isn't there for Protoss as much as it is for Terran.
|
Colossi are so important in all Protoss MU's that their production basically never halts once started. The ample time in which the Robo is up without a Colossus den is basically the only time when other units are constructed from it. In those relatively early game situations detection/ scouting with observers is better than having a warp prism, same goes for the immortal when Toss needs to survive a push. Players are generally only just on 2-base when the Robo finishes, making drops very unlikely to be cost-effective.
If Toss play ever starts getting warpgate oriented, foregoing Colossi for DT's, HT's and Archons, I see the Warp Prism playing a much bigger role. Currently Colossi play eats heavily into the Toss gateway count and it occupies the robo build time. If they aren't built though the Toss has more gateways and more importantly, a lot of robo production time. When some observers have been built Toss is free to add immortals and warp prism to his liking which is really effective to quickly reinforce, do sneaky warp-ins and even immortal drop micro.
Basically there's nothing wrong with the warp prism, the Colossus is just too good comparatively.
|
Warp prisms serve no purpose other than dropping. Medivacs are amazing units for dropping and healing, and Zerg have a ton of overlords just laying around that are very cheap. Especially when you can bring more overlords than you need so the enemy will target down unloaded overlords if it is spotted.
When a warp prism isn't being used at any time it's just wasted supply.
|
On May 03 2011 09:18 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 09:16 Zidane wrote:
Can a WP with speed upgrade outrun a viking? Yes, yes it can, assuming it lives long enough to turn around and run directly away from it. Which is unlikely, since it's made of paper.
I have to assume you probably never tried it. Just from memory I can tell you are wrong, but I went the extra 10 seconds to Liquipedia to confirm the following:
A Viking kills a Medivac faster than a WP.(6 hits to 7 hits)
With the absurd speed of 3.375 a speed WP has a good chance of escape since only Mutalisk(3.75) and phoenixes(4.25) are faster in the air.
The real problems I see are that there will be more than 1 viking if you go colossus and the transform animation taking 2 seconds.
Also there is no unit really worth speed dropping instead of regular dropping.
|
It is a buffed shuttle ^.^ no reason not to use it. Dts are still there, hts ... zealots. And now even immortals for take down buildings with low hp in a pinch + you can get obs speed from the same building as shuttle speed yayness.
Terrans have a good anti air in tvp though mostly, so aiding in battle is more a pvz thing. They are perfect for harassing though, don't even need to be filled so your current army won't be hurt if its floating around waiting for an engagement to sneak in warp in 4 zealots and completly shut down a base and force a worker slide (or all the workers will die). Also they are super fast so unlike the other drop ships they can't be chased down by air units.
Its almost always worth getting it if the game goes on for a bit. And the build/reasearch timings are just perfect (support dock speed reasearch n colossi). And you often see the robo not doing anything while the support dock goes up, so its only an excuse for people who fear the micro part of the game.
But well i shouldn't complain most of the time its just this one robo the toss gets that makes me win games and also not having to fear drops from a toss makes it so much easier to fight against them.
As toss atm prism play is super effectiv in any matchup since people never think of it and suddenly while fighting there are 4 zealots dropped in one expansions while the prism is on its way to warp in more zealots in the other expansions. Or suddenly a prism appears drops a sentry blocks of the ramp of an zerg expansions drops a few zealots too and warps in some blink stalkers and takes care of the hatch.
And while i think its not the robo occupied with other stuff or because its weak hped or slow or blocks thermal lances research (you don't need that asap ... you want 4 colossi anyway before moving out and you can micro them defensly easy enough, more true in pvz though)
Its more the high mobility on the maps that the toss has anyway. Blink stalkers on the current maps can go anywhere anyway, and colossi too. Which is what most armys in pvz look like.
So while the warp prism doesn't really fit into this colossi stalkers style, it fits into alot of other playstyles. And i guess once the toss wants to increase their speed they will also use warp prisms alot more ^^. (using them early game against some current popular zerg builds would be a good start ... 2 immortals a warp prism and 4 gates warping in zealots, if this hits unscouted its good night zerg main)
PS: sc2 storm drops are more effectiv then bw storm drops ... just for the record. (more workers per base and you still only need 2 storms, especially vs terrans its way more effectiv because of the reduced worker hp compared to bw)
But in generall people will stick with what the pros do and if the pros are comfortable with a playstyle as its effectiv there is no need to switch it up or reveal their hidden tactics.
Be sure that you will soon see lots of baneling vs protoss especially with drops xD. It was know since the beta and only recently gained some popularity. (sigh no one expected this before, winning now will get harder)
|
I know that my analysis isn't perfect and my points can be refutable, keep in mind this is my first contribution and to be honest, posting a thread on TL is kinda scary. D:
|
move warp prism to stargate, would that fix it?
I think if you open stargate, you have the option of several different harassments, but late game you could continue colossi production on robotics but throw down a stargate for warp prisms and voids or phoenix later on.
|
i think it is also due to the opportunity cost of the robo facility. collosi and immortals are just that much better
|
On May 03 2011 08:01 EclipZe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 07:54 mavsfan0041 wrote:
Ok I don't play toss so I might be a little off but this is my take on it.
Build two warp prisms, load with 8 zealots, fly to opponents base, unload, warp in 4,5,6 stalkers behind it. That's a pretty potent force that can be in the back of your base with like 10 seconds of arriving. While two warp prisms may take time out of the robo, they cost no gas. So during that time you could be using your gas to tech down other paths like *gasp* HTs! Something not colossus. And once your warp prisms are done, you can gently push out immortals or colossus if you don't want just HTs.
Main Point: Get more than one warp prism, use gas on other things. Of course that would mean that you have a robo bay not producing anything for a while or two robos making two warp prisms leaving you vulnerable while they are not making collossus. And you'd have to have your tech tree up to HT including twilight council and HT archives, then you'd have to have storm upgraded for HT to be useful then you'd have to have them up long enough because the amulet is gone. So this means this option is only available late game and while the force is formidable, the late game army of any opponent will be up to the task.... Crippling the death ball of 8 zealots and 4 - 6 stalkers...
Yes you would have one robo bay not producing colossus or immortals for a while (I wasn't suggesting building 2 robos), but at the end you have templar and up until the moment you leave your base, your entire army is still there. About not having your whole army there if they attack you, that's a problem no matter what race you are. When I used to play terran, I would load up to medivacs to try a drop only to miss the other guy's army and lose because I basically split my army in two. That's a risk not intrinsic to warp prism play.
|
Australia8532 Posts
On May 03 2011 09:48 `ChroMaTe_ wrote:
I know that my analysis isn't perfect and my points can be refutable, keep in mind this is my first contribution and to be honest, posting a thread on TL is kinda scary. D:
The fact that we are on page 9/10 means your thread has generated pretty good discussion; that or there are no mods around :p
I'd say you provide an interesting analysis - while i posted earlier disagreeing with a lot that you have to say, doesn't mean you are wrong; i feel you are commenting on the current state of things rather than what is possible 
|
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but there are 2 things I see wrong with this analysis.
Overlord dropping is only 200/200, but speed is also 100/100. You need speed to drop, so the cost is 300/300 + 100 for each overlord. It isn't cheap in the gas department, but we shouldn't really complain because they only cost Minerals if we lose them whereas a Medevac would cost gas.
The complaining about the Warp Prism only being able to carrying 8 units is kind of not well thought out. Warp Prisms carry the 4 zealots and then can warp in an unlimited amount of units with the Zealots if there are sufficient WGs available. Warp Prisms, in theory, are better than Medevacs and Overlords in the amount of units they can "drop off."
|
I like using the warp prisms. It reinforces armies quickly and can be used to harass? Drop a couple of zealots and then warp-in DTs or Stalkers. While attacking the front it sounds pretty sweet. Even building a forward pylon may sound better but the warp prism is able to move and can carry units. I think it's underused because of this forward pylon. Making a warp prism before observer may be better than actually. I think it'd be extremely good for harass and may pay itself off. The game is still evolving look at BW it evolved and the use of queens became a game changer in TvZ.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
