EPTIf the warp prism's field moves out of range of a unit warping in, the warpin is canceled.
If they did this, warp prisms would be super cool.
Why Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 10
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
If the warp prism's field moves out of range of a unit warping in, the warpin is canceled. If they did this, warp prisms would be super cool. | ||
|
ProbeRusher
United States86 Posts
| ||
|
algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
Want to compare OVs to something? How about to pylons/supply depots. OV 200hp 0 armor. Supply 400hp 1 armor. Pylon 200sh/200hp 1 armor. Also OV move... that is the excuse I guess for their low HP but they are slow as shit even with the upgrade. If they didn't have the potential to drop they probably wouldn't be getting sniped all the time because they would have a higher HP. Still all these detriments don't stop Z from dropping. Real reason why Protoss doesn't drop has been stated many times already. Why drop (or make warp prism) when you can just spam a few more Colossus. Want more drops? Nerf Colossus so it doesn't seem like you are losing out if your Robo isn't always churning one out. Don't QQ that you can't build another Robo... I guess having 11 wg and 3 robo is just too bad compared to 12wg and 2 robo. Fact: Right now Toss army comp is so powerful there is no reason to do anything but WG + Colossus. | ||
|
VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
Analysis was very obvious and shallow. Any competent player could have told you the same thing without the fluff. OP i think you should go further with some of the points. Some areas to delve into: the fact that as the game goes on, the warp prism built time is 'missed' less. The fact that you made a warp prism instead of that X can be at times more irrelevant as the game approaches end game. chronoboost factor etc. There are certain timings you have to invest in a warp prism to make them cost effective, explore these options. If you are losing a battle you would not get a warp prism because you are gonna need the build time to replenish collosi and you will not ha. But if you think about it, if you are trading units, the other player is not likely to push to your main allowing for prism counter? I agree that with T they are always good utility for bio and with the nature of the marine in sc2, you will always be using them as a mineral dump, specially on maps where gas is a limiting factor. With Z you always got overlords so you got the drop and speed upgrade investments, but they are resource limited only not time, and one time. But i dont think its that warp prisms are weak, they just havent found their niche since the templar nerf. Shit still needs to be tested. backslash end disorganized rant. | ||
|
mburke05
United States130 Posts
like really dude? come on | ||
|
mavsfan0041
United States306 Posts
On May 03 2011 10:26 travis wrote: I think warp prisms should be able to warp in while moving. So they don't have to be "deployed", or whatever it's called. If the warp prism's field moves out of range of a unit warping in, the warpin is canceled. If they did this, warp prisms would be super cool. At first I was like "How would this change anything?" but then I realized that actually would fix a lot... They would be able to get away faster if something finds them while trying to warp in so their "paperness" becomes slightly less of an issue with good reaction times. And if a warpin does get canceled you only lose the gateway cooldown right? Not minerals and gas afaik. The only thing that might be a problem is doing say, white ra immortal/warp prism micro AND being able to warp in zealots at the same time and same place might be a bit OP. | ||
|
NukeTheBunnys
United States1004 Posts
the real options you have to drop with are 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 DT, or 4 HT or some combination there of. Zealots unsupported are pretty terrible cause any target can just run away, and they take a long time to kill any buildings. Stalkers do such low damage that 4 of them is next to worthless and they can blink which allows for more mobility, and they less vulnerable(not stuck in the prism that can die and cause all of them to die) HT and DT are more viable IMO since they are better in small numbers. HTs can storm and kill whole mineral lines in seconds, and DT force scans or other kinds of detection and can still level bases in a short amount of time if there isnt detection. but this is only a very late game tactic since it takes so long to get them Combine this with the fact that if you warp anything then you cant bring your troops back with you. If you make enough warp prisms to pull your units back after the attack you have a large number of these useless warp prisms taking up food. For Terran the medivacs help keep your bio ball alive so much longer so its not really a loss to have them taking suppy. For zerg ovies actually give you supply. | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
4. Cargo Capacity All three cargo transports can carry a maximum of 8 supply worth of units. However, Protoss does not have a 1 supply unit other than the Probe. At least, our drops would consist of 4 Zealots, 4 Stalkers or a mix of both. Sure, the argument would be "Just make more Prisms", but take into consideration Point 2 and how that takes time from the Robotics Facility. Medivacs can carry 8 Marines, a scary drop, and Overlords can carry 8 Zerglings. The ability to only drop 4 units at a time appeals even less to the Protoss player and would once again, refrain from dropping. May appeal less, but it's definitely better than the measly 8 Zerglings. 4 Chargelots for example will do so much damage. Also another part you don't emphasize or comment enough on is that the Warp Prism is the "strongest" drop since you can bring potentially more units; the units inside and additional units being warped in. And if you kill the WP, the additional units being warped in will be refunded and the production cycles reset again, so it's not much of a loss. With the rise of popularity and effectiveness (balance patches) of the Templar Tech, I think we'll see more drops as the Robo isn't making Colossi or has stopped making them in favor of HTs. And if not, I'll be doing that anyways. Also another thing... I don't think most people realize there is a Warp Prism speed upgrade and observer speed upgrade? Both for 100/100, but the speed increase is shocking. Hell, you could use a leftover WP to scout around the map for expansions in place of an observer. | ||
|
MrBarryObama
Korea (South)141 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:46 NicolBolas wrote: All of these points could be used against the Shuttle from SC1. Really, the only reason you don't see more Prism usage is because of the lack of a droppable unit that can do serious damage. There's no equivalent to a Reaver (the primary thing people carried in Shuttles). Immortal drops would be strong at picking off tech structures quickly, but that's about it. Storm drops still work, but that's pretty late-game stuff. END OF DISCUSSION, this is exactly why. Nothing is wrong with the warp prism, it's a tight unit. But terran and zerg have cheap units that deal big damage, which are perfect for drops, while toss dont. So really warp prisms are just flying pylons that you use to feel pr0. | ||
|
iseefor
United States162 Posts
| ||
|
0mar
United States567 Posts
4 blue flame hellions? You can wipe out an entire mineral line with that. 8 marines? Stim them and you can destroy some buildings if the response is delayed. Plus you're going to build medivacs anyways, so you can drop 16 or 24 marines and really wreak some havoc. Zerg has access to doom drops after upgrading their OLs. Bane drops in the mineral line are basically unavoidable unless you have some great defense, and even then you just need to get lucky and have one baneling go off near a group of probes. Protoss is screwed in this regard. Colossus/Templars are too valuable to risk and they are mainly a late game option in which you can do that fancy drop shit or you can just go kill him with that much AoE available. Zealots/Stalkers are too weak in small numbers to do much damage. Everything else is a joke. There's no reaver type unit which benefits from increased mobility alongside it's ability to cause massive damage. | ||
|
windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
The thing about any drop play its that its mostly High risk high reward and since Protoss have no need to risk it atm thats why we don't see P drops so much | ||
|
Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:39 `ChroMaTe_ wrote: Warp Prisms, if caught, can get picked off and destroyed faster before all cargo is unloaded or before we can get away compared to the other transport units If they're caught then, yes, they can be destroyed faster than the other dropships. However, generally, if a dropship is caught it's dead anyway. If I manage to get in a position to attack a warp prism and kill it, I can almost definitely do the same with a medivac/overlord regardless of health/armour difference. The Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, not exactly cheap. Medivacs cost 100/100 and Overlords cost just 100, with the research to be able to drop costing 200/200, which is only a one time cost, so the more drops you use the more cost efficient the research becomes. Warp prism only costs minerals. As the game progresses gas becomes more and more of an issue due to tech advancing so when your dropship only costs minerals it's a huge bonus. Medivacs from Starports, which in most cases are going to be producing Medivacs during the whole game. This is, frankly, wrong as the Terran will mostly be producing vikings vs the typical colossi seen in TvP. Yes, they'll build a few medivacs at the start and here and there throughout the game. However, once the Protoss starts producing colossi, the Terran generally has to start producing non-stop vikings otherwise they're going to die. This completely negates the rest of your argument. The Medivac can heal the drop units, increasing the cost effectiveness of the Terran units. Overlords just provide supply, and the Warp Prism can create a power field. That allows you to of course, warp in more units than you can have in the actual Warp Prism, but in conjunction with Point 1, the Warp Prism can get picked off some of the time and your units will be cancelled. Which brings me to the next and final point. Why the huge double standard? You argue that medivacs can heal the dropping units thus increasing the effectiveness, but a Warp Prism is suddenly useless because it can be picked off so there's no point warping in? What stops you from sniping the medivac that's healing the drop? What stops you from protecting your own warp prism with the units that you drop initially whilst it's warping in? What stops you from using an observer to scout for when the units are coming back to defend so you know when to cancel warpin and retreat? 4. Cargo Capacity Warpin. End of. But, really, the reason that warp prisms aren't used so much is that Protoss don't have to with their current style of play (as stated by others in the thread). Why would Protoss want to harass when they're not really scared of a late game engagement generally? Sure, they might want to prevent expansions going down incase their opponent is being greedy but they don't need drops to do that. A Terran player needs to drop Protoss to try and delay their 200/200 "deathball" as it's more cost effective than the 200/200 Terran army. Zerg players have been experimenting with drops/nydus worm play lately for the exact same reason. | ||
|
Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On May 03 2011 10:45 mavsfan0041 wrote: At first I was like "How would this change anything?" but then I realized that actually would fix a lot... They would be able to get away faster if something finds them while trying to warp in so their "paperness" becomes slightly less of an issue with good reaction times. And if a warpin does get canceled you only lose the gateway cooldown right? Not minerals and gas afaik. The only thing that might be a problem is doing say, white ra immortal/warp prism micro AND being able to warp in zealots at the same time and same place might be a bit OP. They don't even cost you a gateway cooldown to be honest (it's the same as killing the pylon as units warp in). I actually tested this out in the map editor at some point (back when I was trying and failing to make a custom UMS map) and it didn't work out too well. Essentially, you could not warp units in as you moved, because even slow things (like a Mothership with the full sized pylon field) could not get units in before it moved outside the range. The current range of the power field is so small that having an "instant switch" would provide essentially the same effect unless units warp in a lot faster under the Warp Prism (food for thought). | ||
|
AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
| ||
|
Elwar
953 Posts
Its because gateway units are completely terrible in small numbers against what the enemy will defend with (lings/roaches or marines/marauders). Also terran and protoss can defend drops very easily. Stimmed MMM or lings will arrive in no time. Theres simply not opportunity to drop unless they are way out of position. Its completely the opposite reasons why protoss get dropped all the time. MMM or roach drops require a much bigger (more expensive) protoss army to clean up than what was dropped. Protoss is by far the slowest race to respond unless they have many idle warpgates even if they have blink stalkers out. This seems to be intentional design by Blizzard, not a balance issue. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
KingAce
United States471 Posts
| ||
|
Sir Snoopy
United States57 Posts
| ||
|
0mar
United States567 Posts
On May 03 2011 11:19 windsupernova wrote: How are people saying that there are no droppable Units? Especially after the Amulet Nerf HT are the droppable unit from the P army. The thing about any drop play its that its mostly High risk high reward and since Protoss have no need to risk it atm thats why we don't see P drops so much That's an extremely late game option and leaves your main army open to attack. Even pre-amulet nerf, it wasn't really worth dropping HT because storm is pretty weak. It's radius is small and the DPS is low enough to escape with workers. Other than that, what the heck else are you going to drop? 4 zealots is probably the only thing worth doing because they can hit hard. Anything else you warp in goes on a suicide mission. For Protoss, drops are high risk, low reward due to the nature of their units. | ||
| ||
