EPTWhy Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 8
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
101toss
3232 Posts
| ||
|
MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
| ||
|
kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:49 alepov wrote: 4 lots are a lot scarier than 8 lings though Not to worker lines they aren't. | ||
|
Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:15 kzn wrote: I don't understand how you see a lategame threat buying players time in the mid-game - the obvious reaction to a lategame threat is to end the game before the threat is realized, which is precisely what fast prism play would have trouble with. I meant if there is an equal trade early to midgame, then someone could argue that fast warp prisms late can keep the terran back to harass while you build up another death ball. There is going to have to be a player to step forward and champion a more harass based protoss style. A good way to try and not lose your whole drop would be blink stalkers to blink out of mains and warp in zealots on the warp prism field. This is all theorycrafting though, because I haven't seen any major use from warp prisms in big tournaments. I also don't think people want to play protoss in a harass oriented way when colossus sentry stalker or colossus chargelot high templar works so much better in direct engagements. | ||
|
Ownos
United States2147 Posts
Anything you warp in you can't carry back home. However, it means if you lose anyting in a drop, you can run the warp prism somewhere safe, warp in a new zealot and continue the harassment unlike a OL/Medivac which might have to run all the way home to refresh it's cargo. There are some things the prisms can carry and they are generally high tech units. Getting prisms + colossus or prisms + DTs or HTs is a very hefty tech investment. Chances are, these things can come into play, just that the game never lasts long enough or conditions good enough for the protoss to tech up. DT hit and runs can be very good. MUCH better than hoping your DT isn't caught and ultimately dying. I thought the point of harassment was to do damage for free or efficiently.  | ||
|
mikyaJ
1834 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:49 alepov wrote: 4 lots are a lot scarier than 8 lings though An overlord full of lings costs 300 Minerals (100 for Overlord, 200 for 8 lings)--- Minus drop tech cost of course, because it essentially cancels out with the fact that the other races will be building Supply Depots and Pylons themselves as well, so the overlords essentially cost nothing but the Drop Tech cost when compared to the other races. A Warp Prism full of Zealots costs 600 Minerals. Therefore, for the costs it would be 16 Lings. And 16 Lings IS scarier than 4 Zealots. Plus Lings can actually kill workers that are running away, where Zealots are too slow <-- that's another major reason for the lack of drops. | ||
|
Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
| ||
|
Sahand
United Kingdom114 Posts
[B]On May 03 2011 06:39 `ChroMaTe_ wrote: The Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, not exactly cheap. i'd rather pay 200 minerals than 100/100 considering how much gas toss uses already | ||
|
Norada
China482 Posts
http://sc2.plu.cn/vod/Starswar6/3765.html Used it as a way to get out of a contain and a bit of harassment. He plays really well. | ||
|
kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 09:00 Sahand wrote: i'd rather pay 200 minerals than 100/100 considering how much gas toss uses already Well yes but I'd rather pay 150/150 and have a unit that heals my ground army. Hell I might pay that much just for something that heals shields. | ||
|
ishkabibble
Canada161 Posts
4 zealots in a mineral line can do pretty decent damage to it and is not to be underestimated. It is quite a good late game harass when people have multiple bases. But since it is impractical to have a ton of warp prisms, you are often limited to supply space so you want efficient units, which is why storm drops are the best, as 4 storms and then 2 archons can really tear a mineral line apart. Warp prisms are also quite fast which is an advantage over other things (and non speed warp prisms move as fast as medivacs and faster than overlords, why do people say they are too slow). Warp prisms are also good in pvp before colossi are out, since you can hover it near your enemies base and if they attack you, FF your ramp and warp zealots into their mineral line and they have 0 eco which makes their attack all in and quite often wins you the game, which is great for pinning people in pvp while you tech off of 1 base. The last thing you see them that they are great for is immortal play. Dropping immortals on top of tanks is insanely good, and picking up colossi can help some too. So basically, warp prisms are great for small cute plays and harasses, but not for big drops like dropping 8 marauders to snipe a hatch or dropping 40 roaches to end the game. So they are more difficult to execute and while they can do a lot of damage, they are underused since they are different than other drop plays. | ||
|
Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
| ||
|
Carkis
Canada302 Posts
| ||
|
aidnai
United States1159 Posts
Even for midgame harass, zealots in the mineral line cannot be cleaned up by workers, thus forcing a response. Keeping the WP alive isn't really any more difficult than keeping medivacs alive. I agree with the general sentiment that most protoss will find it advantageous to keep their army together to fight, especially while still on colossus tech. | ||
|
Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
Terrans and more recently zerg have been dropping protoss like crazy. Inference: Dropping is good against protoss, moreso then other races. Style of PvP: Blink Stalker harass and then base trade. Blink Stalkers do not instantly kill other toss because they cannot win in a straight up fight, but they can harass to death. Fact: Blink Requires twilight council, which has no detection. Fact: If you are harassing with blink you'll want an observer to see on the high ground and to see dark templar. Inference: Blink Stalker Harass with Dark Templar drops should be good against protoss. Fact: Dark templar kill Collosi disturbingly fast | ||
|
Aequos
Canada606 Posts
It's a bit depressing (not to mention wasteful at times) knowing that anything beyond the 8 supply of units you initially drop is guaranteed to die. Edit: @Poster above - couldn't you just get hallucinate and use that to spot the high ground? | ||
|
beute
Germany197 Posts
or let me reword that... they dont have primary uses. you dont get overlords because you want to drop. you get them for your supply. you dont get medivacs just for drops, you wanna heal your army. you'll generally have more of these units than necessary for just dropping your enemy. Dropping is just an option for zerg/terran where as for protoss warp prisms only purpose is dropping. If dropping isnt working, they're useless and just take away robo building time and minerals. especially if you create more than just one. on top of that they're the weakest droppers in every aspect... they take longer to build, they have the fewest hit points and they have the worst secondary effect.(I would gladly take health regeneration or in zergs case bait overlords/creep generation/baneling drops) the reason white-ra is so successfull with them is because he is pretty much the only guy that uses them consistently. people are just not expecting it that often when they play against toss... I mean, if they can defend terran/zerg drops than protoss warp prism drops should be the easiest to handle, they just dont see it as a threat most of the time and hence have fewer defenses against it. | ||
|
Kaonis
United States243 Posts
Like people have said before in this thread, the shuttle was nothing without its reaver. That said, I would probably not use a warp prism unless some mega-abusive tactic came around, but protoss feels like it's in a strange place right now with one super-duper-mega-power unit. | ||
|
Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:43 FatkiddsLag wrote: im going to start making another robo just to pump out warp prisms Excellent point. The point of taking away production of Collossusses is in my opinion moot. Heavy drop play is usually a midgame thing and another 200/100 to produce observers and warp prisms if you have need won´t kill you on 2 bases or 3 bases. Another moot point is in my opinion comparison with medivacs. Medivacs block production of vikings entirely(cost about the same). Medivacs are good with bio, but other (e.g. Hellion) drops are still viable even when building few to no infantry. Prisms are as fast as Medivacs(2.5) and get really fast with upgrade. Also would you rather pay 100 gas or 100 minerals? Some issues I see are: The warp field encourages heavy warpgate use(1 prism-> infinte units) instead of drops. Blinkstalker and Colossusses don´t need drops to travel cliffs and Stalkers can traverse small chasms. The (usual) Colossus heavy army functions only with 3+ Colossusses and promotes the use of anti air, further discouraging drop play. Most P units are worthless in low-middlish numbers. Drops would require high tech units(coloss/templar/air) with them to have a costefficient troop. On a side note I find it actually positive that all P units take 2 spaces or more. First of all every unit takes its supply in spaces(there is no 1 supply unit for P). On the same note dropping big units is a lot faster than dropping small ones(dropping 2 immortals is as fast as dropping 2 zealots or 2 marines). In my opinion Protoss drops aren´t common is because P units aren´t effective in small numbers anymore. In brood war Reaver drops were awesome. In SC2, you´d need Templar to have something similar and Templar take forever to tech. | ||
|
SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
That's essentially it. | ||
| ||
