EPTSeriously tho, pylons
Why Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 6
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Kalpman
Sweden406 Posts
Seriously tho, pylons | ||
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Geos13
437 Posts
Ok I don't play toss so I might be a little off but this is my take on it. Build two warp prisms, load with 8 zealots, fly to opponents base, unload, warp in 4,5,6 stalkers behind it. Okay so with 6 stalkers warped in behind the zealots best case scenario you get all your stalkers out and two zealots. Meaning you lose 600 minerals worth of units. I would be very impressed to see someone do that much damage with a drop before the opposing player crushes the drop. A drop cannot compete with an actual army and Protoss units are too expensive to just throw away. You need to be able to retreat or do very fast and heavy damage while sacrificing your units. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:01 aderum wrote: and this isnt true for the pother races? lol. everybody takes a risk when dropping No, its not. At the most basic level, other races have more options in terms of army composition where a single unit is not 2+ food by default - missing 8 marines is a hell of a lot better than missing 8 zealots. Beyond that, the nature of the cheap protoss units (ie zealots) means that they become exponentially more useful as you have more of them, because they soak up damage for longer and die slower as your damage units kill the other army. This is before even considering things like sentries, which is kinda silly because drops based around choke FFs are probably the only drops that could really be as effective against T/Z as T drops are against P. Both Zerg and Terran have unit compositions that work best when they're split apart, forcing the opponent to split as well. Those aren't their only options, but they are options. There is no similar option for P, except maybe Phoenix/DT based play. | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
If a terran mass bunkers at his front but has a ledge that you can pop into his main with, you can circumvent any bunker and get straight into production facilities in his base. The major problem is that most protoss users don't want to give up that extra build time on obs or colossus or even think about researching the speed upgrade which would make this harass a ton more hectic for the defending player. One could make an argument that warpprisms early to midgame puts protoss at a major disadvantage, but the viability for lategame harass could buy you time to build a better deathball in a losing situation. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Where Overlord are slower than Medivac and Medivac are 2.5 which is not bad. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:12 Demonace34 wrote: One could make an argument that warpprisms early to midgame puts protoss at a major disadvantage, but the viability for lategame harass could buy you time to build a better deathball in a losing situation. I don't understand how you see a lategame threat buying players time in the mid-game - the obvious reaction to a lategame threat is to end the game before the threat is realized, which is precisely what fast prism play would have trouble with. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:03 Yaotzin wrote: I don't think the warp prism's strengths or weaknessess have any effect at all on whether a Toss player drops. Most Toss players wouldn't drop if you gave them a 1khp prism, and the dropping sort would probably still do it if it had 100hp. The reasons for not dropping have been mentioned - Protoss units function better close together, and a lack of (pre latelategame) units to drop. Quoting for emphasis. Protoss design doesn't really lend itself to small ground-based harassment in general, be it through drops or warp-ins. Zealots only really become a decently droppable unit with Charge (and even then are inferior to hydras or bio), DTs can be dropped, but don't need to most of the time, and Storm drops have become a lot riskier with the Amulet removal. So yeah, they're not that good, and there's no reason to develop them with the way Protoss currently plays. | ||
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palanq
United States761 Posts
zeal/stalker drops just seem awful - you'll be lucky to kill 3 workers before they pull, as opposed to a lot more (for similar risk) from other T/Z drops | ||
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Lucy1nTheSky
39 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:50 Existor wrote: Plus, you can place any structure anywhere and then place pylon. So you will build pylon and gate/photon at same time Zomg i'm so going to try doing mid/lategame cannon pushes with warp prisms now... How fast do you think 2 speed prisms plus 2 probes can warp in 2 cannons at each opponent's natural in a team game? | ||
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:57 Roxy wrote: And if they just decide to attack our main? refer to the post about protecting our colosus They do lost of damage, but are essentially made of glass (not unlike the warp prism). The thing about a protoss army, is that a couple units missing from the army can mean the difference between marginally winning the battle and getting absolutely roflstomped Everyone faces this problem when dropping. Fortunately for you, a colossus's 9 range and FFs make defending a position possible with less units than your opponent. | ||
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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:07 Geos13 wrote: Okay so with 6 stalkers warped in behind the zealots best case scenario you get all your stalkers out and two zealots. Meaning you lose 600 minerals worth of units. I would be very impressed to see someone do that much damage with a drop before the opposing player crushes the drop. A drop cannot compete with an actual army and Protoss units are too expensive to just throw away. You need to be able to retreat or do very fast and heavy damage while sacrificing your units. Depending on where you drop, you can pick up the zealots and blink your stalkers out of the base. Or you can include a HT or two in the drop and potentially do a lot of extra damage to their army/probe line. Obviously there are risks involved but don't dismiss an entire strategy just because of some theoretical disadvantage. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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EZR-Aeron
New Zealand64 Posts
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ChineseWife
United States373 Posts
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
I have been doing so neat 3 gate warp prism all ins vs terran though. Replays http://drop.sc/8785 http://drop.sc/8784 http://drop.sc/8783 http://drop.sc/8782 On May 03 2011 08:19 EZR-Aeron wrote: Cargo capacity shouldn't matter as directly after dropping your 4 units you can warp in several more. What if you want to save units you attack with after doing a little damage? | ||
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Berthi
Germany7 Posts
now that the templars have been nerfed (templar storm drop was incredibly strong in lategame) I think the warp prism buff would be a good idea. (yesyesyes i know toss imba ...blizz shouldnt buff them even more^^ but possibly along with a colossus nerf ) I personally could imagine some kind of shield which makes the warpprism invulnerable or untargetable for 3-4 seconds with a high cool down. This would make things like immortaldrops more viable. I could even be a way to counter colossus in pvp. This might sound imbalanced but i dont really if it is. Otherwise mb just make the shield absorb the dmg for some seconds, but the warpprism takes all the dmg after the effect runs out. Sry for my english^^ | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
Protoss do, however, lack a unit that can be dropped to do any sort of significant damage, unlike the hydralisk for Zerg, or the marauder and the marine for Terran. That said, I will add one point to you, and that is that while a Protoss can warp in more units than the warp prism can carry, that is effectively throwing away those units as there is no way to get them out again. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 08:17 Rokk wrote: Everyone faces this problem when dropping. Fortunately for you, a colossus's 9 range and FFs make defending a position possible with less units than your opponent. Defenders advantage alone makes that possible, which doesn't deal with the fact that Protoss, more than Terran or Zerg, needs a single deathball to come out on top in engagements before Storm, and pretty much nobody has disagreed that storm drops are probably much more effective than the amount of use they've seen so far suggests. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
I think a big part of the lack of drop play is, unlike terran and zerg, protoss cannot afford to lose small chunks of its army here and there. The units are too expensive, can be quite hard to replace, and a protoss is generally on less production capacity (bio builds faster even if the total buildings is comparable) than the other two races unless they have a really solid base lead. Master's protoss btw if that matters. | ||
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