EPTWhy Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 12
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Marinechan
Sweden71 Posts
| ||
|
mikyaJ
1834 Posts
On May 03 2011 10:40 algorithm0r wrote: Zerg player here so let me spew my bias. Want to compare OVs to something? How about to pylons/supply depots. OV 200hp 0 armor. Supply 400hp 1 armor. Pylon 200sh/200hp 1 armor. Also OV move... that is the excuse I guess for their low HP but they are slow as shit even with the upgrade. If they didn't have the potential to drop they probably wouldn't be getting sniped all the time because they would have a higher HP. Still all these detriments don't stop Z from dropping. How about, since all races are spending equal amounts of minerals on Pylons, Supply Depots, and Overlords, using Overlords as Drop ships is essentially free minus the cost of the two one-time upgrades versus the other races who buy each individual dropship, the production buildings, AND buy Pylons and Supply depots on top of that. | ||
|
mikyaJ
1834 Posts
On May 03 2011 13:13 Joementum wrote: 4 zealots > 8 Zerglings in a worker line. Why the complaining? The only thing Zerg has on the Zealots is the movement speed, but Charge can help. HT/DT are also better than anything any other race has. Use them more often. 16 Zerglings in two Overlords = 4 Zealots in 1 Warp Prism in cost and supply, so that's not a fair comparison at all.... ALSO WORKERS OUTRUN ZEALOTS, BUT NOT ZERGLINGS... -.- | ||
|
JiYan
United States3668 Posts
| ||
|
pecore
Germany62 Posts
I cannot help but wonder if this shouldn't be a thread in the strategy forum discussing how to overcome these problems with warp prisms or find other uses for them without assuming that a change to the game is necessary or even possible. | ||
|
VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
1. Viable Transport Unit 2. Viable Drop Unit 3. Low Risk HIgh Reward 1.3.3 Protoss 1. Warp Prism - check 2. Zealot(very specifically situational)/ HT 3. 600 mineral risk for zealot, 350/450 risk for HT - conclusion - high risk 1.2.3 Protoss 1. Warp Prism - check 2. Zealot(very specifically situational)/ HT /w Amulet 3. Situational 600 mineral risk for Zealot. 200 mineral risk + optional 150/450 additional risk With warp in psi storm ability vision from your warp prism allowed you to assess whether a 150/450 resource warp in of 3 high templar to storm a mineral line would be cost effective. Secondly if it does turn out to be cost effective, one is free to fly to the next mineral line and warp in 3 more ht dealing additional damage for your opponents poor play (poor play because all one need do is move workers out of the radius within 4 seconds of the psi storm going off) Currently storm drop is not viable because you always risk 350/450 resources and are never guaranteed any unit kills as well as the opportunity cost of losing 44.4 seconds of the time it took to get the energy to get the storm in the first place. The higher the skill level, the less effective storm drops are because the likelihood of workers moving within 4 seconds increases. | ||
|
Faraday
United States553 Posts
Yeah...with the amulet out, dropping with WP is a total waste. It's expensive, made of paper and slow as hell...I'd rather use those resources in making colossi, or having the ht's with the death ball. | ||
|
OptimusYale
Korea (South)1005 Posts
| ||
|
Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
That said, I always thought the zealot-immortal warp-in+drop was a good build. The main potential of warm prism is in the mobile warp-in ability. DTs and zealots are both good at that, and offer excellent harass/counter-harass for zerg to have to contend with. | ||
|
Brian333
657 Posts
The nature of harass is you use it to gain small leads with little to no losses. This is why it's so important that you have high dps units that can drop in, deal damage quickly and efficiently before the enemy responds, and then get out before they can punish the drop. This is why marine or marauder drops are so good. They have incredible dps per cost and cargo especially with stim. The warp-prism's warp-in mechanic doesn't fit into this idea because whatever you warp-in is effectively lost. You can only retreat what the warp-prism can carry. Couple that with the fact that protoss warp-in units either have poor dps (stalkers, sentries) or damage efficiency (zealots before charge, DTs are melee and need to either chase or run to their targets) and you have incredibly costly drops that don't deal damage that well. The primary benefit that warp-in does serve is to lower the risk of attempting to drop. You can just fly in a warp-prism and even if you lose it, that's only 200 minerals lost. Switch modes and warp-in 4 zealots and after they get back, pull back, load up, and get out. Likewise, if a Terran tries to drop and they lose their medivac loaded with 8 marines, that's 500/100 lost. Before, with warp-in storms, you could storm their mineral line only risking 200 minerals upfront. Now, you need to ferry the HTs into enemy territory so there is more risk associated with the gains of storming mineral lines. | ||
|
Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
| ||
|
Nicholai
15 Posts
| ||
|
nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:39 `ChroMaTe_ wrote: 3. Secondary Effect The Medivac can heal the drop units, increasing the cost effectiveness of the Terran units. Overlords just provide supply, and the Warp Prism can create a power field. That allows you to of course, warp in more units than you can have in the actual Warp Prism, but in conjunction with Point 1, the Warp Prism can get picked off some of the time and your units will be cancelled. Which brings me to the next and final point. This to me is the primary reason we don't see as much drops compared to terran and even zergs nowadays. Terran have no problem getting 5+ medivacs as it in most situations benefit their army as well as giving them the ability to do drops without worrying too much if you lose the drop ship. The same with zerg that always have plenty of overlords. Protoss on the other hand often gets one warp prism or two at most at the same time. This basically means if that dies it feels like a much bigger deal. I think warp prism could use some additional ability although I'm not sure what that could be. Maybe you can have warm prism give supply (like an overlord) when they are in the power mode. That gives them a little more use before and after an drop and maybe gives a little more incentive to make more of them. I'm sure there are better ideas out there though. | ||
|
Wyk
314 Posts
If you want late game progression, probably the best thing considering protoss mechanics, then by all means, chrono out 6-8 colossus so you can have a deathball. Oh, and be passive \o/ | ||
|
Kanil
United States1713 Posts
Throw in some cute drop play and the fact that they "carry" (sort of) more units than any other transport (8 space + 2 more for each warp gate you have) and you can plop down 30 supply worth of food almost anywhere in just 5 seconds. I love Warp Prisms, most fun unit for me at the moment. I build at least one every game. I think as the game ages, people will use them more... a lot more. | ||
|
LRObot
United States153 Posts
Consider the fact that you can 'drop' with _zero_ units inside a warp prism. It, logically, poses less risk than the other races, having less HP simply adds more risk. 2. Cost & Production Value I think Blizzard realizes the inherit power of lower risk drops, so to stem its abuse, made it a robo unit as you say are currently colo/immortal/obs prioritized. 4. Cargo Capacity This is just how it works. Unless you're asking for a one supply unit. And you realize that Blizzard introduced this thing called warp-in, right? BTW, this really is more a "Protoss Harass: Compared" topic. Comparing dropships on a 1-on-1 analysis is ludicrous | ||
|
Cloak
United States816 Posts
Terran will naturally gain air dominance through Viking production against the inevitable Colossus, and Queens do fairly well at staving/killing off Warp Prism. Stalkers are very exceptional at picking them off too. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
building an extra robo just to produce 1-2 warp prism is pretty expensive. | ||
|
Joementum
787 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:08 Marinechan wrote: I just saw Artosis use Warp Prisms in a fashionable way (dropping zealots near tanks). Definitely an underused unit for the toss. That's just like the Zealot bombs in SC1. It's not really that useful in SC2 though since most Terrans are going to have a bunch of vikings around to kill your Colossus. Seems like a situational thing. | ||
|
CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
Additionally, one of the main aspects of the marauder drop is its ability to snipe buildings. I think that the protoss equivalent of this could be the immortal drop, with a slightly higher price (500/200 for terran), (700/200) for protoss. This higher cost can be easily justified with the superior fire power and durability of immortals over marauders. However I suspect that with the current warp-gate based meta-game for protoss, robo-heavy drops such as this will not be seen for some time. | ||
| ||
