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Why Protoss Drops Are Rare (Warp Prism Analysis) - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Marinechan
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden71 Posts
May 03 2011 05:08 GMT
#221
I just saw Artosis use Warp Prisms in a fashionable way (dropping zealots near tanks). Definitely an underused unit for the toss.
Marinesplit, how do I do it?
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
May 03 2011 05:11 GMT
#222
On May 03 2011 10:40 algorithm0r wrote:
Zerg player here so let me spew my bias.

Want to compare OVs to something? How about to pylons/supply depots. OV 200hp 0 armor. Supply 400hp 1 armor. Pylon 200sh/200hp 1 armor. Also OV move... that is the excuse I guess for their low HP but they are slow as shit even with the upgrade. If they didn't have the potential to drop they probably wouldn't be getting sniped all the time because they would have a higher HP. Still all these detriments don't stop Z from dropping.

How about, since all races are spending equal amounts of minerals on Pylons, Supply Depots, and Overlords, using Overlords as Drop ships is essentially free minus the cost of the two one-time upgrades versus the other races who buy each individual dropship, the production buildings, AND buy Pylons and Supply depots on top of that.
MKP||TSL
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
May 03 2011 05:13 GMT
#223
On May 03 2011 13:13 Joementum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2011 13:06 Datum wrote:
One problem I've had is simply that the cheap units (the ones I feel the most comfortable loading up into the fragile Warp Prism to fly away) aren't very good for drops. Terrans can drop Marines and Marauders, which are both ranged units. Zergs can drop highly mobile zerglings, or hydras and roaches, which are ranged units. Protoss can drop mostly stalkers and zealots, however. I find that 4 zealots spend too long trying to squeeze through a mineral line to reach harvesters to do any significant damage. 4 stalkers aren't really effective without a zealot to tank damage, and 1 zealot and 3 stalkers won't really be able to do too much damage to a mineral line. That being said, there are other uses for drops, but I feel that overall, low-tier protoss units are not condusive to drops.

TLDR: Low-tier protoss units suck for drops (?)


4 zealots > 8 Zerglings in a worker line. Why the complaining? The only thing Zerg has on the Zealots is the movement speed, but Charge can help. HT/DT are also better than anything any other race has. Use them more often.

16 Zerglings in two Overlords = 4 Zealots in 1 Warp Prism in cost and supply, so that's not a fair comparison at all.... ALSO WORKERS OUTRUN ZEALOTS, BUT NOT ZERGLINGS... -.-
MKP||TSL
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
May 03 2011 05:14 GMT
#224
not if the zealots of charge, kind of
pecore
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany62 Posts
May 03 2011 05:17 GMT
#225
I don't really like the approach and conclusion of the OP, although I think the analysis is ok.
I cannot help but wonder if this shouldn't be a thread in the strategy forum discussing how to overcome these problems with warp prisms or find other uses for them without assuming that a change to the game is necessary or even possible.
Dont Panic!
VTPerfect
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
May 03 2011 05:41 GMT
#226
I used to use warp prisms quite extensively late game. In order for dropping to be viable 3 factors must be lined up.

1. Viable Transport Unit
2. Viable Drop Unit
3. Low Risk HIgh Reward

1.3.3 Protoss

1. Warp Prism - check
2. Zealot(very specifically situational)/ HT
3. 600 mineral risk for zealot, 350/450 risk for HT - conclusion - high risk

1.2.3 Protoss

1. Warp Prism - check
2. Zealot(very specifically situational)/ HT /w Amulet
3. Situational 600 mineral risk for Zealot. 200 mineral risk + optional 150/450 additional risk

With warp in psi storm ability vision from your warp prism allowed you to assess whether a 150/450 resource warp in of 3 high templar to storm a mineral line would be cost effective. Secondly if it does turn out to be cost effective, one is free to fly to the next mineral line and warp in 3 more ht dealing additional damage for your opponents poor play (poor play because all one need do is move workers out of the radius within 4 seconds of the psi storm going off)

Currently storm drop is not viable because you always risk 350/450 resources and are never guaranteed any unit kills as well as the opportunity cost of losing 44.4 seconds of the time it took to get the energy to get the storm in the first place. The higher the skill level, the less effective storm drops are because the likelihood of workers moving within 4 seconds increases.
Faraday
Profile Joined April 2009
United States553 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 06:16:57
May 03 2011 06:16 GMT
#227
"The Medivac can heal the drop units, increasing the cost effectiveness of the Terran units. Overlords just provide supply and can carpet-baneling drop your entire army in one swoop(<- personal insertion), and the Warp Prism can create a power field"

Yeah...with the amulet out, dropping with WP is a total waste. It's expensive, made of paper and slow as hell...I'd rather use those resources in making colossi, or having the ht's with the death ball.
what happened, happened...
OptimusYale
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1005 Posts
May 03 2011 06:41 GMT
#228
What would making warp prisms 1 food do? Would that make them OP? Would that make them more useful and more used?
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 06:49:45
May 03 2011 06:46 GMT
#229
I think it's pretty obvious why protoss drops are rare, and didn't think it needed explaining... even new players would know I'd think.

That said, I always thought the zealot-immortal warp-in+drop was a good build.

The main potential of warm prism is in the mobile warp-in ability. DTs and zealots are both good at that, and offer excellent harass/counter-harass for zerg to have to contend with.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Brian333
Profile Joined August 2010
657 Posts
May 03 2011 06:48 GMT
#230
Made a lengthy post about this in the past in the old Protoss discussion thread and this pretty much addresses everything I brought up then except for one point.

The nature of harass is you use it to gain small leads with little to no losses. This is why it's so important that you have high dps units that can drop in, deal damage quickly and efficiently before the enemy responds, and then get out before they can punish the drop.

This is why marine or marauder drops are so good. They have incredible dps per cost and cargo especially with stim.

The warp-prism's warp-in mechanic doesn't fit into this idea because whatever you warp-in is effectively lost. You can only retreat what the warp-prism can carry. Couple that with the fact that protoss warp-in units either have poor dps (stalkers, sentries) or damage efficiency (zealots before charge, DTs are melee and need to either chase or run to their targets) and you have incredibly costly drops that don't deal damage that well.

The primary benefit that warp-in does serve is to lower the risk of attempting to drop. You can just fly in a warp-prism and even if you lose it, that's only 200 minerals lost. Switch modes and warp-in 4 zealots and after they get back, pull back, load up, and get out. Likewise, if a Terran tries to drop and they lose their medivac loaded with 8 marines, that's 500/100 lost. Before, with warp-in storms, you could storm their mineral line only risking 200 minerals upfront. Now, you need to ferry the HTs into enemy territory so there is more risk associated with the gains of storming mineral lines.
Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
May 03 2011 06:48 GMT
#231
It's crazy, that noone has mentioned Warp prism attacks that are lead by 2 sentries and 2 zealots around minute 8-9. The standard positioning for any standing army is in the natural with the exception of a few guards outside. Now along comes a warp prism, drops 2 sentries and 2 zealots and instantly starts warping in stalkers. Force field goes down on your ramp and suddenly you are screwed. Protoss can constantly reinforce IN YOUR BASE. The same base that you cannot enter due to sentries. If properly executed with your force on the outside, you have lost the game absurdly fast if you do not own medivacs/drop tech to elevator shuttle your units inside your own base. Too bad, that Zerg/Terran expand before before they get drop tech.

Nicholai
Profile Joined November 2010
15 Posts
May 03 2011 06:56 GMT
#232
I think there is a rather hidden reason for Protoss not using drop play... the strategies they are currently using are doing just fine. Necessity is the mother of invention; terrans especially drop because it is key to successful harass (and terrans have to harass). Zerg are turning to drop play as a way of evening the score vs. protoss and terran as well. With the bounty of other viable options, the high apm very risky option of drop play just doesn't make that much sense.
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
May 03 2011 06:57 GMT
#233
On May 03 2011 06:39 `ChroMaTe_ wrote:

3. Secondary Effect

The Medivac can heal the drop units, increasing the cost effectiveness of the Terran units. Overlords just provide supply, and the Warp Prism can create a power field. That allows you to of course, warp in more units than you can have in the actual Warp Prism, but in conjunction with Point 1, the Warp Prism can get picked off some of the time and your units will be cancelled. Which brings me to the next and final point.


This to me is the primary reason we don't see as much drops compared to terran and even zergs nowadays. Terran have no problem getting 5+ medivacs as it in most situations benefit their army as well as giving them the ability to do drops without worrying too much if you lose the drop ship. The same with zerg that always have plenty of overlords. Protoss on the other hand often gets one warp prism or two at most at the same time. This basically means if that dies it feels like a much bigger deal.

I think warp prism could use some additional ability although I'm not sure what that could be. Maybe you can have warm prism give supply (like an overlord) when they are in the power mode. That gives them a little more use before and after an drop and maybe gives a little more incentive to make more of them. I'm sure there are better ideas out there though.
Banelings are too cute to blow up
Wyk
Profile Joined March 2011
314 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 07:11:24
May 03 2011 07:11 GMT
#234
If you want early game aggresion, then use the robo to get prisms out. Believe me, on scrap station its quite a powerful strat vs terran.
If you want late game progression, probably the best thing considering protoss mechanics, then by all means, chrono out 6-8 colossus so you can have a deathball. Oh, and be passive \o/
Kanil
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1713 Posts
May 03 2011 07:24 GMT
#235
I think Warp Prisms are fine, just incredibly underused for how useful they are. They don't even need to be used for drops, they're like a pylon for reinforcement, only that a pylon takes 17 seconds to build and this thing takes like 1 second to deploy -- that alone is worth 200 minerals and a bit of robo time. Try blinking up into his main then warping in some sentries to FF his ramp, for example -- can't do that with a pylon..

Throw in some cute drop play and the fact that they "carry" (sort of) more units than any other transport (8 space + 2 more for each warp gate you have) and you can plop down 30 supply worth of food almost anywhere in just 5 seconds.

I love Warp Prisms, most fun unit for me at the moment. I build at least one every game. I think as the game ages, people will use them more... a lot more.
I used to have an Oz icon over here ---->
LRObot
Profile Joined April 2011
United States153 Posts
May 03 2011 07:47 GMT
#236
1. Hit Points
Consider the fact that you can 'drop' with _zero_ units inside a warp prism. It, logically, poses less risk than the other races, having less HP simply adds more risk.

2. Cost & Production Value
I think Blizzard realizes the inherit power of lower risk drops, so to stem its abuse, made it a robo unit as you say are currently colo/immortal/obs prioritized.

4. Cargo Capacity
This is just how it works. Unless you're asking for a one supply unit. And you realize that Blizzard introduced this thing called warp-in, right?



BTW, this really is more a "Protoss Harass: Compared" topic. Comparing dropships on a 1-on-1 analysis is ludicrous
Never say die
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 08:03:33
May 03 2011 07:55 GMT
#237
There's a multitude of reasons. Someone mentioned that there's no Reaver drop equivalent. That's definitely true. Protoss drops are actually high risk, high investment. Pretty much every unit you send to drop is going to die. 4 Zealots isn't bad because it's minimal loss for potential mineral line destruction. Medivac drops are pretty low risk. Most of the time they get their money's worth even with Protoss' army standing right there. They still get their 2-3 Stalkers, a bunch of Probes, and most of the Zealots. The army strength in those 8 cargo slots is massively different, so it's a lot easier to recover all your units and do damage even with a minimal time window.

Terran will naturally gain air dominance through Viking production against the inevitable Colossus, and Queens do fairly well at staving/killing off Warp Prism. Stalkers are very exceptional at picking them off too.
The more you know, the less you understand.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 03 2011 07:59 GMT
#238
Why do Protoss not utuilize drops? because the whole Protoss army resolves around colossi, immortal and templar. If you build a warp prism, you lose a lot of building time for colossi/immortals.
building an extra robo just to produce 1-2 warp prism is pretty expensive.
Joementum
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
787 Posts
May 03 2011 08:01 GMT
#239
On May 03 2011 14:08 Marinechan wrote:
I just saw Artosis use Warp Prisms in a fashionable way (dropping zealots near tanks). Definitely an underused unit for the toss.


That's just like the Zealot bombs in SC1. It's not really that useful in SC2 though since most Terrans are going to have a bunch of vikings around to kill your Colossus. Seems like a situational thing.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
CortoMontez
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia608 Posts
May 03 2011 08:03 GMT
#240
Although I think that a pure 4 zealot drop will do minimal damage since workers just run away, a 3 zealot + sentry drop could be quite effective, since it could save two forcefields to block workers into the mineral line, then have the three zealots go to work on the workers.

Additionally, one of the main aspects of the marauder drop is its ability to snipe buildings. I think that the protoss equivalent of this could be the immortal drop, with a slightly higher price (500/200 for terran), (700/200) for protoss. This higher cost can be easily justified with the superior fire power and durability of immortals over marauders. However I suspect that with the current warp-gate based meta-game for protoss, robo-heavy drops such as this will not be seen for some time.
"Creator was doing a really good job trying to win without storm but it was like eating spaghetti with a screwdriver." -Severian
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