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On May 03 2011 17:03 CortoMontez wrote:
Although I think that a pure 4 zealot drop will do minimal damage since workers just run away, a 3 zealot + sentry drop could be quite effective, since it could save two forcefields to block workers into the mineral line, then have the three zealots go to work on the workers.
Additionally, one of the main aspects of the marauder drop is its ability to snipe buildings. I think that the protoss equivalent of this could be the immortal drop, with a slightly higher price (500/200 for terran), (700/200) for protoss. This higher cost can be easily justified with the superior fire power and durability of immortals over marauders. However I suspect that with the current warp-gate based meta-game for protoss, robo-heavy drops such as this will not be seen for some time.
Yes, Immortal drops are superior to Marauder drops. That's why we see Immortal drops constantly, but no one ever drops Marauders. Ever.
2 Immortals do more DPS than 4 marauders without stim, but who doesn't use stim? 4 marauders with stim do significantly more DPS than 2 immortals, so saying Immortals have "higher firepower" is laughable.
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On May 03 2011 17:03 CortoMontez wrote:
Although I think that a pure 4 zealot drop will do minimal damage since workers just run away, a 3 zealot + sentry drop could be quite effective, since it could save two forcefields to block workers into the mineral line, then have the three zealots go to work on the workers.
Additionally, one of the main aspects of the marauder drop is its ability to snipe buildings. I think that the protoss equivalent of this could be the immortal drop, with a slightly higher price (500/200 for terran), (700/200) for protoss. This higher cost can be easily justified with the superior fire power and durability of immortals over marauders. However I suspect that with the current warp-gate based meta-game for protoss, robo-heavy drops such as this will not be seen for some time.
Two Immortals have 2x33dps = 66dps, while 4x stimmed marauders have 4x20dps = 80 dps.
In addition, the marauders can stim-kite a lot of units and are built from barracks, while Immortals are built from the robotics facility, which clashes with your Colossi building...
(The marauders are also faster moving while stimmed and have longer range, so they will be able to start attacking faster than the immortal...)
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Protoss drops are rare because they're not really needed. Up to this point the most effective strategy in every matchup is to build up a big ball of units with colossus and attack. Necessity bournes inovation, and there's no necessity for extra harass at the current time. The deathball style is slowly being figured out by the different races, and as it does, protoss will soon find that warp prisms are just as good if not better than other races' drops.
With the speed upgrade, the warp prism is by far the fastest drop ship in the game, costs no gas, and doesn't give you supply. Sure zerg's 100 mineral overlord seems convenient to drop with, but you can't just lose the overlord and say, "oh well, my drop didn't work", you have to rebuild it immediately or get supply blocked (if you aren't already). Gas is a limiting factor for terrans who have to manage between vikings, medivacs, tanks/marauders, etc. Since protoss is inherently very gas heavy, they usually need a mineral dump, which the warp prism provides.
So, as I said, yes, they're not used allot, mostly because they're not needed. I don't really think you could make a case for it being a "bad" dropship, but given the choice between a dropship and 1/2 a colossus, almost every protoss right now will chose the 1/2 a colossus. As time goes on we'll see more protoss drops as each race finds it's own way to fight the deathball.
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There is 0 potential usage for Warp-prism.
PvZ revolves around the Protoss deathball. Sacrificing units as Protoss to keep the Zerg economy down is pretty much always a bad idea.
In PvT the Terran pretty much always gets a lot of marines and Vikings as well =>impossible to drop.
If you sacrifice minerals to build warp-prism in PvP early game, you will get pushed and lose the game.
In the late game, if you sacrifice robotics buildtime to produce warp-prism instead of colossi you will lose the game as well.
The only situation where Warp-prisms are decent are situations where the Protoss was already ten times ahead and wanted to end the game quicker (ie white-ra vs MC PvP).
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I disagree entirely with the OP. For me the only reason Protoss players aren't using Warp Prisms to drop is that the metagame hasn't developed to a point where they NEED to drop, so they don't bother. When you look at the Warp Prism itself there's really no reason to not use them. At 3.375 it's by far the fastest dropship (it's not a coincidence that they're 0.01 faster than stimmed Marines), and allows for the warp in of anything anywhere.
And as for Protoss units working best in large numbers, need I remind everyone how obnoxious just a few Zealots in a mineral line are?
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i think it could be interesting if its replaced with battery prism, just like http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Shield_Battery
as of now:
warping in units to harass: this could be from 4 zealots to 15 zealots or other wg units, whatever the radius can fit. to use up the whole radius is a huge investment and it could be used very situationally. such as huge distraction to pull the enemy's army to defend so that you can set up for better position. any DT or HT harass can be done by just loading them in.
Any units being warp-ed in at most times will be taken care of. for how much they cost, they will do insufficient damage unless it's 8 DT's mopping down everything insight-key tech buildings, 1 hit probes. (this can be done with just 2 prisms also, and still cost-inefficient in more likely situations).
What will battery shield-prism do?
i think it can make certain combo of units more rich in synergy and more robust. 2 archons could be dropped and with shield backing them on, they can handle hand full of units. it can also be used in battle fields where it can regenerate shield on the spot, it'll also motivate the usage of HT+Prism play more. make stalkers more robust and more dynamic with blink and charging shield.
overall, i think it'll make the protoss "flow" better than warp prism because protoss already have pylons.
note: when charging shield, unit cannot move. the shield battery has energy and it depletes quickly when used with multiple units. shield battery in bw was well balanced, imo.
for any mass attack on island/off base (situational), there is recall. or just crap load of prisms.
(i assume they removed arbitor-multi-recall because of warp prisms)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Shield_Battery in BW. what i propose is this thing being able to fly with a toggle switch.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Why Do People Type Like This It Looks Really Stupid.
OT: Warp Prism may not be as good as Terran or Zerg drops BUT you can throw alot of people off-guard by doing it since people dont expect it to happen by a toss
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Overlords cost 100, but you have to account for the research time and research cost aswell. Zerg drop costs 200/200 and takes a long time to upgrade, then you need overlord speed which is 100/100. Also you need lair so thats another 150/100.
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BW had the Reaver/Shuttle micro, so I think Toss deserves a break from drop play.
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colossi walk up cliffs, stalker blink up, a probe that puts pylons near the enemy base is nearly as useful as a warpprism, its not that the protoss is unable to drop, its more that he has many ways around it i guess.
the warpprism has the greatest potential if you just focus on dropping, because you can warp in more stuff to support the drop, ofc its risky, but 2 medivacs arent free either (almost a colossus).
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On May 03 2011 17:25 grudgeStar wrote:
Overlords cost 100, but you have to account for the research time and research cost aswell. Zerg drop costs 200/200 and takes a long time to upgrade, then you need overlord speed which is 100/100. Also you need lair so thats another 150/100.
Zerg always gets lair, Zerg always gets overlord speed, Zerg always gets overlord.
Unless they want to do it faster and all-in, Zerg only has to invest 200/200 which is not that big of a deal considering that Zerg pretty much always has a better economy than P/T.
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What about this, Warp Prisms can drop off all their units the same time?
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I think part of the reason we dont see warp prism play is because of the structure they are built from. How often do you see a Protoss who isn't spam producing Colossus. "Well you can get it be4 the colossus" but thats when the Toss is making his observer(s).
But i think the biggest reason = the fact that protoss units are extremely weak in low numbers excluding circumstances in which force fields can be used. Dropping 4 zealots on a mineral line is VERY unlikely to make itself worth the costs, whereas 8 marines can kill an entire probe line no problem and will always be cost efficient if nothing else.
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The simple fact is that dropping as a Protoss requires you to specifically go out of your way, isn't as strong a drop, and takes more away from your army than for the other races.
It isn't useless, but Protoss are by far the weakest race in the dropping department, and the units you would otherwise drop are nearly always better off with your main army. Even a 4x chargelot drop with +3 weapons is only going to kill 4-5 SCVs at most, even if left unchecked for a couple seconds before the opponent notices.
8 stimmed marines with 1 or 2 weapon upgrades will get a lot more kills than than in a few seconds, and they can take on a lot more of the opposing army that comes to defend than the zealots can.
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Slow, built like a paper airplane and costs a ton of minerals and gas plus we have warp gates and DTs. Unit is just a waste of space like many protoss units are IMO. Carrier is like that too. costs too much, too slow, etc so it's just not used much.
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On May 03 2011 17:25 grudgeStar wrote:
Overlords cost 100, but you have to account for the research time and research cost aswell. Zerg drop costs 200/200 and takes a long time to upgrade, then you need overlord speed which is 100/100. Also you need lair so thats another 150/100.
I think this is an absurd comparison. What Zerg doesn't want a Lair? So that cost is irrelevant. Zerg drop research effects all OL so it's research cost is negligible as you approach more & mass drops. OL speed is a necessity for scouting so there again cost would be incurred drop or not.
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As said before, hit point, move speed or secondary use isnt that important. The first thing is the robotic (making one warp prism or two is alright, but preparing a doomdrop will seriously hinder your army strength), but the main problem is the structure of protoss army: T1 provide meatshield, anti-air and space control, higher tech provides high damages (immortals, void rays, DT) and AoE (HT, colossi), wheras, for example, terran's T1 provide the guns and higher techs provide long range, heal, space control (through range, PDD or even HSM).
Actually, on a semi-unrelated note, the more I think about it, the more I see how terrans can harass mineral lines with pretty much everything (not whine or balance, just what I feel). Marines kill probes fast, marauders murders tech, ghosts actually kill workers pretty fast, can EMP a command center or sniper queen, hellions gonna hell, thor drops are thor drops, Banshee are banshees, ravens are a bit week for harass but it only cost energy, vickings can land (through it's a bit weak, I think it was kind of designed for that purpose), and I think a double tank drop could exploit hasardous building placement while decimating a well saturated mineral line.
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i find the warp prism to be a great unit, but the fact is that it doesn't really have anything good to drop. dt harassment is great, but personally i find zealot and ht drops to be extremely underwhelming (compare these to banelings/hellions/marines/marauders). for these tactics to do any decent damage at all, your opponent basically has to be paying no attention and leave his workers to sit and die in storms or to slow melee units.
i really don't think the robo build time has anything to do with it, there is plenty of time while the robo bay isn't done or with another robo facility to make a warp prism. drops just aren't all that damaging so the warp prism is pretty much relegated to being a mobile dt warpin pylon (not that theres anything unfair about this, please don't take my post as a balance complaint).
oh, and it is worth mentioning that the best drop unit (dt) and the warp prism come from different tech paths, whereas medivacs and lair are in the normal tech trees for their respective races.
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On May 03 2011 18:06 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 17:25 grudgeStar wrote:
Overlords cost 100, but you have to account for the research time and research cost aswell. Zerg drop costs 200/200 and takes a long time to upgrade, then you need overlord speed which is 100/100. Also you need lair so thats another 150/100. I think this is an absurd comparison. What Zerg doesn't want a Lair? So that cost is irrelevant. Zerg drop research effects all OL so it's research cost is negligible as you approach more & mass drops. OL speed is a necessity for scouting so there again cost would be incurred drop or not.
I wasn't saying that Zerg drops are worse then Protoss drops... I'm saying that you can't just say that because you have overlords you can drop... getting drop and using it correctly is difficult, and the timing where you want to get drop research is a time where you are really weak as a zerg player.
In the OP, he's basically saying that 100 minerals is what it costs to drop as Zerg, and that's only thing that is absurd.
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An interesting use of the Warp Prism would be to use it to hide tech.
ie: Load up a probe, fly to an island/other desolate place, create energy field, drop your (for eg) dark shrine, and evacuate, use warp prism to warp in a DT straight into the main, and bait the army out the front of the nat/3rd with your main army.
Of course, the timing on this would be MUCH later than desired, however a single un-scouted DT can pay for itself pretty quickly.
Same premise can be used for stargates, with OK success too... The problem is you have to tech to Robo first. This could also cause your opponent to mis-read you though.
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EPT
