On April 28 2011 23:18 R3N wrote: I thought first "well he's a game designer not the balance guru" then thought about that for about a minute until I realized how retarded that was.
This guy basically designed the game but can't even make a semi-decent comparison between two units? Not that it matters as what he says is bullocks. Units hard counter too much in SC2 compared to SC1 and he have no answer to why that is and doesn't want to understand.
SC2 doesn't have hard unit counters. If it did there would lots more swings and comebacks. Hard counters are what creates comeback situations....
No, it's more like units that can hard counter with amazing micro, or die immediately with bad micro (ex. the reaver, sc1 templar, defiler) create comebacks. Also, if the units take a long time to make and are REALLY expensive, that makes it much more interesting. I feel like every unit in SC2 varies from pretty bad to pretty good, and pretty cheap to kinda expensive. Every unit just feels "average-ish"
Furthermore, you have to understand that the players of the different races are saying different things about the situation. Terran players are also complaining that Terran is hard to play. Similarly, Protoss players are also complaining about their own race. We do not acknowledge that there are signs of imbalance in the game. Our view is that the balance situation in the game is quite good as of now.
If everyone is bitching then the game is pretty balanced. That actually sort of makes sense.
40 minutes of CG? Really? Did they include the portrait art in that or something? I distinctly remember there being very little CG and I was disappointed by it.
Also, those balance comments make me want to smash something =(
Dustin has no clue what he is talking about when he talks about balance or units (he manages to say stupid stuff in each interview). He should also answer those with "it is better to direct that question to the balance department".
Yay to future clan system (although by his words they do not even know when to fit implementing that so probably at least a year before we see something like that).
Yay about map pool being changed regularly (hopefully we do not see stupid maps like Steps of War back).
Yay about the movie, but I would have loved if they asked about making a live action movie, not CGI one. Something in the range of Starship Troopers (in budget) but in SC universe would be a great movie to watch.
This situation where one unit counters another unit is not as serious as it was in Starcraft 1. Let's say we have a templar fighting a zergling, and the templar always loses. That's a situation where we really see one unit countering another unit. As of now, the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in Starcraft 1.
If he honestly believes this... There is no way I am getting Heart of the Swarm.
The Templar vs Zergling analogy is so ridiculous and out of place I just don't even know what to say. Comparing a T1 unit to a T3 caster? You can use the same example in SC2 and get the same outcome. What the hell.
Thanks for the translation, this interview is one of the better ones.
It was such a good question (regarding the difficulty of staging a comeback), but Browder just dances around it by talking about micro. Disappointing. It scares me a little that they won't address this major issue.
Imho the major issue is that people seem to think there is a major issue here. At every stage of SC2s lifespan there have been development through playerskill. Every day. Yet at every point in time there are people with the strong belief that there are "major issues" that must be solved through changes in the actual game.
If you compare to just a couple of months ago how there was big battles and then GG, to how it looks now with tenious harass and quite often comebacks.
The question was answered very well. Unit counters are alot stronger in SC1, but yet people percieve SC2 unit "counters" are extremly strong. The longer we'll play this game the looser this term will be for sure, as it did in BW.
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Anyway thanks for the translations and the interview! Let the hordes of crying noobs commence...
You're right dood. It isn't deathball vs deathball anymore... Watch a SC1 game (even from 4-5 years ago) and it is much more spread out, exciting, action packed, and with more comebacks.
On April 28 2011 23:23 infinity2k9 wrote: It has harder unit counters than BW for sure. Vultures vs Dragoons anyone?
If a group of vultures attack moves into a group of Dragoons also attack moving then yes you are correct.
The difference is that a group of well controlled Vultures planting mines in the right spots and flanking the Dragoons will win. On the other hand the opposing player with Dragoons can also micro his face off - defusing mines, spreading out and pulling back weak Dragoons.
It becomes a battle of who has better control rather than who has the better army composition. The winner is always the better player.
How exactly do you do the same thing when it is Thor vs Immortal?
This situation where one unit counters another unit is not as serious as it was in Starcraft 1. Let's say we have a templar fighting a zergling, and the templar always loses. That's a situation where we really see one unit countering another unit. As of now, the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in Starcraft 1.
If he honestly believes this... There is no way I am getting Heart of the Swarm.
The Templar vs Zergling analogy is so ridiculous and out of place I just don't even know what to say. Comparing a T1 unit to a T3 caster? You can use the same example in SC2 and get the same outcome. What the hell.
His Banshee vs Marines example is equally bad. Using cloak is 'micro'? It's just an ability. If he had have said "with good banshee control you can overcome any number of marines" it would have made sense.
It's honestly scary that he still doesn't understand what micro actually is.
Thanks for the translation, this interview is one of the better ones.
Let's look at yet another situation, marauders against stalkers. If both sides a-move, clearly the marauder will win. However, if the stalker has blink, and uses blink well, the situation might turn out different as well.
hahaahahaha..... did you ppl ever see that stalker blink conter MARAders with stim pack :D....Hard conters (like in wc3 tft) remuve abylity of comeback that is truth....becous of that sc1 was so epic game....becous every unite have it purpes in every part of game and newer becamed usles...
only way to solwe that problem is by nerfing splash unites and staf like stim pack(everything that do to much dps and can move)
On April 28 2011 23:25 Beef Noodles wrote: No, it's more like units that can hard counter with amazing micro, or die immediately with bad micro (ex. the reaver, sc1 templar, defiler) create comebacks.
Right, so you agree that hard counters are what creates comebacks. You just want those hard counters accessible via micro, yes?
As you mention by your examples, most of these cases are down to casters - they're a unit type that can be awesome or terribad. SC2 has this too, great spell usage changes games. It probably does have less, but that's in no small part because it's simply less developed. SC didn't have all those micro tricks since release! That said I agree SC2 could use a couple more casters around.
Also, if the units take a long time to make and are REALLY expensive, that makes it much more interesting. I feel like every unit in SC2 varies from pretty bad to pretty good, and pretty cheap to kinda expensive. Every unit just feels "average-ish"
So first SC2 is the game with hard counters, now SC2 is the game where every unit is average and BW is the game where units are amazing at one thing and shit at another - aka they hard counter? Make up your mind.
Furthermore, you have to understand that the players of the different races are saying different things about the situation. Terran players are also complaining that Terran is hard to play. Similarly, Protoss players are also complaining about their own race. We do not acknowledge that there are signs of imbalance in the game. Our view is that the balance situation in the game is quite good as of now.
If everyone is bitching then the game is pretty balanced. That actually sort of makes sense.
Sure, but Zergs are complaining about not having a way to beat a lategame Protoss, and the response to that is usually that there might be a way and Zergs should keep trying. Dustin over here though doesn't even seem to recognize that lategame ZvP is pretty L-O-L atm.
That is actually not the case. This situation where one unit counters another unit is not as serious as it was in Starcraft 1. Let's say we have a templar fighting a zergling, and the templar always loses. That's a situation where we really see one unit countering another unit. As of now, the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in Starcraft 1.
hahahaa.......what?
Either way I was wondering what kind of statistical data they use for the 50-55% winratio among the races, I mean do they leave mirror matches out?And doesn't the Bnet matchmaking system pretty much drive you to the 50%?Therefore the game will always look balanced?
i dont think he was making a comparsion, he was asked, why does the game have hardcounters, then he was basically like, O really ? and then proceeded to give examples where 'supposedly" hardcounters can be countered by either micro or using abilities..................
The interview was pretty good, i do not understand why the QQ from it. The part where he said
"Dustin : There is a chance they might be right, but most of the time, our views on balance have to be supported by data, As of now, from the data that we have, we are unable to support the view that the Zerg race is very weak. "
is very important to note. It might seem that zerg is gimped to some, but from my interpreting of this, hes trying to say that the Results on ladder games do not show imbalance.
On April 28 2011 23:25 Beef Noodles wrote: No, it's more like units that can hard counter with amazing micro, or die immediately with bad micro (ex. the reaver, sc1 templar, defiler) create comebacks.
Right, so you agree that hard counters are what creates comebacks. You just want those hard counters accessible via micro, yes?
As you mention by your examples, most of these cases are down to casters - they're a unit type that can be awesome or terribad. SC2 has this too, great spell usage changes games. It probably does have less, but that's in no small part because it's simply less developed. SC didn't have all those micro tricks since release! That said I agree SC2 could use a couple more casters around.
Also, if the units take a long time to make and are REALLY expensive, that makes it much more interesting. I feel like every unit in SC2 varies from pretty bad to pretty good, and pretty cheap to kinda expensive. Every unit just feels "average-ish"
So first SC2 is the game with hard counters, now SC2 is the game where every unit is average and BW is the game where units are amazing at one thing and shit at another - aka they hard counter? Make up your mind.
Oh I wasn't trying to argue, and I was just saying that having hard counters that don't die easily (the collosus) makes games kind of boring and hard to comeback from. I think SC2 has hard counters, but not in creative ways (if that makes since). They are all average health, average damage, ranged units (for the most part). It doesn't allow for crazy razor thin micro battles. I agree with you, I was just saying its better when the hard counters are glass cannons.
hmm i think people are getting the wrong idea of "the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in sc1." in bw certain matchups you could only make 1 or 2 unit types at most stages of the game until late game, where sc2 has more options. entire units didnt get made in broodwar.... scouts valkries firebats queens etc etc. or if you look at zvz the most basic match-up for both sc1 had basically zerglings and mutalisks, where sc2 has zerglings, banelings, mutas, roaches, hydras, infestors, queens... etc etc. theres just more options early on in sc2. granted people make a good point of dragoons vs vultures but thats something that took a few years to find out, who knows maybe marines could someday always come on top vs banelings.... oh wait.
In no universe do blink stalkers kill maruaders what the fuck rofl. In extreme cases where the protoss is 3-3 and the terran is 0-0, maybe...but equal armies nope.
The Starcraft II community must excommunicate Dustin Browder from humanity because he is clearly some devilish fiend from outer space.
EPT
