EPT[D] Zerg Detection - Page 21
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justinpal
United States3810 Posts
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Tomcattomato
Netherlands95 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:02 mrtomjones wrote: I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues I suppose the Shredder will be able to kill burrowed banelings trying to move past it quite effectively; you won't even need to spot them then. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:02 mrtomjones wrote: I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues Changes nothing for terran. Even in mid-game, terrans are getting turrets at expo's to defend against mutas. Turrets by themselves atm don't stop banelings rolling in to kill workers. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:53 Belial88 wrote: Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem. man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell. so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach | ||
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Cypher_Brood
United States19 Posts
That said, I think that taking a third won't be so insanely difficult if you give an overlord detection (assuming there are DTs out and about). Then, later, I figure giving the Swarm Host detection could be a good choice since it'll be burrowed most of the time (I'm assuming it'll have vision while burrowed.) And since when did Zerg stop getting spore crawlers against banshees? I swear some people act like Zerg has never stopped cloaked banshee harass or DT harass without overseers. Its not some impossible hurdle. And with scouting, I don't think it's going to be as necessary as it is in WoL. With some of the options being opened up at lair tech, it seems like zerg can take some map control with Vipers and Swarm Hosts giving us time to react to the units we see. Not to mention we still can get the speed upgrade for overlords and float one in now and again to get a good look at the enemy's base. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:55 zhurai wrote: I vote 100/150 at most or 150/100? (as I guess with its other skills "100/100" would make it too cheap or something stupid like that) Lmao your wording is hilarious. "Too cheap or something stupid like that", as if the people at Blizzard are idiots and have no idea what they're doing when they set a high cost for a unit that can hook colossi and bring them into your army, and make a sort of disruption web/dark swarm. People are being completely ridiculous, obviously Blizzard will have a way of creating detection for zerg if it's necessary by the time beta comes out. They're not completely retarded to the point they can't realize DTs and banshees would be strong for map control in the early game. Stop whining for no reason. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:39 Cypher_Brood wrote: I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that people are whining about things they have not even had the chance to play with yet. There's somehow been a meta-game shift without the game even being out. All this theory-crafting is bonkers. That said, I think that taking a third won't be so insanely difficult if you give an overlord detection (assuming there are DTs out and about). Then, later, I figure giving the Swarm Host detection could be a good choice since it'll be burrowed most of the time (I'm assuming it'll have vision while burrowed.) And since when did Zerg stop getting spore crawlers against banshees? I swear some people act like Zerg has never stopped cloaked banshee harass or DT harass without overseers. Its not some impossible hurdle. And with scouting, I don't think it's going to be as necessary as it is in WoL. With some of the options being opened up at lair tech, it seems like zerg can take some map control with Vipers and Swarm Hosts giving us time to react to the units we see. Not to mention we still can get the speed upgrade for overlords and float one in now and again to get a good look at the enemy's base. I love how u complain about theory crafting and then hop right on the train and join the thread  welcome.yeah, taking a third will be hard. and gas heavy. I don't see why I would get a swarm host early on instead of infestors, I don't think there will be a huge shift. The viper will be used but I don't know how this will affect terran pushes in any way. zerg will still be reactionary. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:45 Heavenly wrote: Lmao your wording is hilarious. "Too cheap or something stupid like that", as if the people at Blizzard are idiots and have no idea what they're doing when they set a high cost for a unit that can hook colossi and bring them into your army, and make a sort of disruption web/dark swarm. People are being completely ridiculous, obviously Blizzard will have a way of creating detection for zerg if it's necessary by the time beta comes out. They're not completely retarded to the point they can't realize DTs and banshees would be strong for map control in the early game. Stop whining for no reason. you mustve not been playing zerg post beta phase 1. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about. However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part. I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection. about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:02 mrtomjones wrote: I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues That attitude can make anything op like.... Scourges that do 110 on air units! Kills Carriers so fast! wtf!?!?! Dark swarm that prevents range damage on your units! Banelings that blow everything up Marines have so much dps! no LAN. Blizzard OP! Deathball! Stop my research?!?! Mass recall? OMG how much damage Tempests do. My whole MORE EXPENSIVE THAN YOUR ARMY of mutas is all dead qq oracles, now I have to stop mining, and it can disable my spines so now I have to bring my army to be able to mine again! Replicant...Copy my units wat?!?! Wth Lina in dota can do like 1250 damage with her ulti? WTF Destructible rocks - Wtffffff Definite potential for issues/etc/etc/etc (note I'm not complaining about balance...in any of the above games.) On October 22 2011 19:45 Heavenly wrote: Lmao your wording is hilarious. "Too cheap or something stupid like that", as if the people at Blizzard are idiots and have no idea what they're doing when they set a high cost for a unit that can hook colossi and bring them into your army, and make a sort of disruption web/dark swarm. People are being completely ridiculous, obviously Blizzard will have a way of creating detection for zerg if it's necessary by the time beta comes out. They're not completely retarded to the point they can't realize DTs and banshees would be strong for map control in the early game. Stop whining for no reason. Maybe read better. I said I vote 100/150 at most. I'm saying personally I'd prefer the unit to be 150/100 or 100/150. and based on what people might say (that it might be too cheap for what it can do - pulling collosi), 100/100 would be too cheap Cause saying "I vote..." means I'm obviously talking about people at blizzard being idiots and them having no idea. All I'm saying is 200 gas at that point in time that zerg needs detection... 200gas is a pretty heafty price to pay. Stop putting words in my mouth. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:57 emc wrote: I'd like to note the HotS changes, regarding scouting. Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about. However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part. I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection. about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base. spot on I think blizz has to split this unit up. It simply cannot be a powerful spellcaster and detector at the same time. It just doesn't work. | ||
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Cypher_Brood
United States19 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:49 Jayjay54 wrote: I love how u complain about theory crafting and then hop right on the train and join the thread welcome.yeah, taking a third will be hard. and gas heavy. I don't see why I would get a swarm host early on instead of infestors, I don't think there will be a huge shift. The viper will be used but I don't know how this will affect terran pushes in any way. zerg will still be reactionary. I do what I can I know that I'm theory crafting, but I am trying to be as constructive as possible. But I pointed out a good reason to get swarm hosts before infestors. But to elaborate: Swarm hosts come out ready to fight. They don't need energy to cast any spells. They don't need any upgrades so that they are useful straight outta the egg. And I believe they will be good zone controllers. And I agree zerg will still be reactionary, but I also believe with these new lair tech units, we can give ourselves more time to get what we need. I just don't see taking thirds being significantly more difficult than it already is. As for dealing with terran pushes, I think of Swarm Hosts as lower tech Brood Lords as in they force tanks to unsiege. And we will still have banelings and speedlings and now with the Viper, we can pull the tanks closer to our army or atleast out of position. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
I think they could just give cheap upgrade for overlord, where overlord just acquires detection for like 50/50 or something. | ||
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acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
New zerg units are also making it more viable to stay even on bases with P/T in some scenarios. You already see this to some extent with mass infestor and upgraded ling compositions by opting for macro hatches before thirds. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On October 22 2011 20:26 acrimoneyius wrote: Infestors with fungal growth, burrowing units that receive parasite from viper, spore crawlers that can be repositioned. Why do zergs think they should be able to have their cake and eat it too? DT opening's are one of the most risky investments you can make as protoss. New zerg units are also making it more viable to stay even on bases with P/T in some scenarios. You already see this to some extent with mass infestor and upgraded ling compositions by opting for macro hatches before thirds. the whole point of the thread is how hard it will be to get a third. so zerg is FORCED to be on equal bases until they make a massive gas investement (lair + viper + ov speed). this takes time. spore crawler is not viable offensively (obv) and fungals are really risky (as the only detection) and they're also quite gas heavy. also as stated above the scouting abilities of the zerg (which weren't that great in the first place) will deteriorate further. I guess most zergs would agree to keep the overseer in trade of the ocular parasite. it's not a good option, it's a bad one. | ||
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Sh1FTy_
32 Posts
On October 22 2011 19:18 justinpal wrote: Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection... Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ. User was warned for this post | ||
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
On October 22 2011 22:12 Sh1FTy_ wrote: Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ. I want probes too. Pylons would only be made to detect when i had to move my probe where else | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On October 22 2011 21:07 Jayjay54 wrote: the whole point of the thread is how hard it will be to get a third. so zerg is FORCED to be on equal bases until they make a massive gas investement (lair + viper + ov speed). this takes time. spore crawler is not viable offensively (obv) and fungals are really risky (as the only detection) and they're also quite gas heavy. also as stated above the scouting abilities of the zerg (which weren't that great in the first place) will deteriorate further. I guess most zergs would agree to keep the overseer in trade of the ocular parasite. it's not a good option, it's a bad one. that "massive gas" investment is like 3 sentries man. i just hate it when people think their stuff is so expensive when in reality its not. the viper is going to be the backbone of any good zerg army. | ||
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nooboon
2602 Posts
In regards to its ability, it does not say if the viper itself has detection (but one can assume that the ability grants detection to whom the eye is attached to, and since the eye is attached to the viper, it should have detection). As of early info, its grant detection is a one time spell but that does not mean that the viper will die after using it. It was also mentioned that "grant detection" would be the cheapest spell, that could mean that the viper does not start with detection and the player must research it, or the viper has detection but "grant detection" allows the viper to give detection to another unit. To many questions, we will have to wait for the beta | ||
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hns
Germany609 Posts
On October 22 2011 20:07 decaf wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 22 2011 19:57 emc wrote: I'd like to note the HotS changes, regarding scouting. Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about. However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part. I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection. about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base. spot on I think blizz has to split this unit up. It simply cannot be a powerful spellcaster and detector at the same time. It just doesn't work. Ever heard of a thing called Science Vessel?  | ||
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