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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
Personally I don't think it's a good idea to include detection on that unit simply becaus you have to make too many trade-offs. The next thing that popped into my head immediately was the scouting difficulties. If might sacrificial overlord gets killed I would morph an overseer and send it in, what do now? I think this will be tweaked as soon as the beta goes live, it kinda has to. | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:01 dogabutila wrote: Yea, except robo tech is what you want to actually do anyways. Spire tech sucks. Its like putting obs at stargate tech. You need to go out of the way for it or you lose to some banshees, but if you do then your midgame army is either slow or shit. So in a way, it's like saying that it comes at infestation pit since that's what you want anyways. Except even not really because ZERG TECH TAKES TWICE AS LONG AS THE OTHER RACES. stopped reading at spire tech sucks. | ||
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
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teide
Spain178 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1438 Posts
If you honestly think mutas are good then you don't realize how incredibly fragile they are. And expensive. And shitty DPS. | ||
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RedHelix
250 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:20 Scorch wrote: I very much like the Viper's other spells, but my solution to the detection issue would have been much more straightforward: remove the Overseer, and give zerg a Lair tech upgrade to give all Overlords detection. If Broodwar is any indication, that wouldn't make cloaked units against zerg unviable at all. ZvP has a much different dynamic in SC2 compared to BW. The main difference being how much more Protoss has to fight for air immunity early game since queens do really well as basic defense. Sniping overlords is much harder in SC2, and such a fast tech switch for P almost is suicidal. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:36 dogabutila wrote: If you honestly think mutas are good then you don't realize how incredibly fragile they are. And expensive. And shitty DPS. What the... mutas are incredible, and that comes from a zerg player. The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes. They said it's a hive upgrade, so you won't see them at 7mn, and ultras charge while burrowing, they can't move around. But yeah moveable banelings underground seems weird, and i'm on the edge about dolphinlisks. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes. yeah cuz we rush to hive now in 7 minutes? and roaches are quicker now? ....... e: I don't see a huge impact on the first 10 minutes ... | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes. Banelings can't move while burrowed until an upgrade in hive -.- Also you won't get hive in 7 minutes. | ||
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:16 Jayjay54 wrote: I'm not even sure that this choose a hero detection unit is a good thing for zerg. what unit should be the detector. A random roach which I now have to keep out of the battle? I lose a fighting unit or it might die randomly? I feel like the only good option is indeed the overlord in which case u also need speed. so lair + spire + viper + speed. that does not make sense imo The main problem I could see with that is that speed overlords are 1.875 and speed overseers are 2.75. It'll be much harder to keep them with the very mobile Zerg ground army. Still, I think theorycrafting about how things will be UP or OP at this stage is way, way too early. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I suppose an argument could be made that the defensive capabilities of the viper allow for zerg to be better to play in the dark (ie like terran can make a bunker or two and be generally safe until they can know whats going on), but at 200 gas it seems quite expensive. And then the problem is that there is just no overseers. Like how is zerg supposed to scout the opponents base, it's not like flying an overseer a single time at 9 is enough (IF flying the viper is supposed to be the answer). Seems like a huge gap. EDIT/PS: It seems like a lot of people are confused about the viper, I guess not everything has been posted yet. The viper costs 200 gas, and I think it's 4 supply, although could be 2 (dont quote me on that, but it does cost supply is the point, unlike overseer). It morphs from an egg, just like a drone, overlord, ling, etc. I don't recall the build time, but while playing the HOTS at blizzcon today, it felt like it built fairly quickly. Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem. Also, it's available as soon as you get lair. No tech building required. Yes, it flies, but no spire needed. I guess in case anyone is wondering, swarm host is available once you get infestation pit (i think the idea is that its not a great unit, but if you get infestors because you want hive against turtling players or even if you go infestors, you get this cool unit. I think the purpose is to knock on the door of people who turtle, as right now zerg can't really pressure turtlers, they can only really macro up - as said by david kim, by the way, not by a mid-masters zerg who bitches a lot. | ||
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Unnamed Player
Australia89 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes. You mean the units that can only use those abilities at the very earliest at Lair and most at Hive and in the case of roaches require 2 upgrades as apposed to cloaked banshees or DT's that come how soon again? | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On October 22 2011 17:45 Jim7 wrote: From what I've read it sounds like the Viper only needs Lair. Just like the Overseer. The only problem I saw was that it's a bit of an expensive unit. 100/200? Edit: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/hots-multiplayer-zerg-first-impressions/ Viper Requires: Lair Cost: 100/200 I vote 100/150 at most or 150/100? (as I guess with its other skills "100/100" would make it too cheap or something stupid like that) | ||
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SoFool
Malaysia96 Posts
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes. Lol clearly it's the P/T that are crying with the advent of HoTS if the poll in the other thread is any indication. The zerg poll shows an overwhelming majority liking the Zerg additions + removal. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:55 zhurai wrote: I vote 100/150 at most or 150/100? (as I guess with its other skills "100/100" would make it too cheap or something stupid like that) ok this is huge. now 75% of my posts yesterday are flushed down the toilet. why would we get a spellcaster at pure lair. that doesn't even make sense. blinding cloud at lair? in terms of detection. the timing is alright, the gas investment is still significant | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:58 SoFool wrote: hi, overseer cost 50 minerals 50 gas. And we're not sure how much energy is the viper's detection is. kthxbye Hi, overseers are out of hots for now. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On October 22 2011 18:53 zhurai wrote: Banelings can't move while burrowed until an upgrade in hive -.- Also you won't get hive in 7 minutes. I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues | ||
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