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On June 10 2011 10:45 Wren wrote:Since I'm already a zerg qq-er... Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 21:48 Thezzy wrote:
A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either.
PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas
Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals
Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones)
OR
Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)
Seems fine to me. The zerg option is the most expensive and least powerful. That sucks. I don't expect each species to be equally good at everything, but it makes your argument look really silly if your math contradicts your point.
How is Zerg the most expensive and least powerful?
A PF and a Turret is powerful yes, but it comes at the cost of not building an Orbital Command, providing less Mules/Scans. It also costs the most gas.
Nexus/Pylon/Cannon only has the one cannon for defense although it does allow for warp-in.
Still, if you snipe the pylon, no warp-in can save the expo.
Hatchery/Crawler/Spine does cost slightly more than the Protoss version (but only 25 minerals, out of 650), but it allows you to move your Spore Crawler and your Spine Crawler and the hatchery itself provides unit production, whereas the Nexus and PF can only make workers.
The overseer version is the most expensive (although I'd consider 750min and 50gas to be cheaper than 650min and 150gas for the PF/Turret) but it uniquely allows mobile detection.
Especially against any cloaked units that try to run, the Overseer can stay with them and allow you to kill them off.
Each race has advantages and disadvantages, but I'd hardly say Zerg is somehow the weakest of the bunch when it comes to expansions.
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Overseer is 100 gas, just so you know.
And if you wanna count not an orbital, you should also count the larva spent on drones, then spent on building the buildings -_-
But that isn't such a big deal unless you're getting the natural or third up I guess.
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On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote:
edit:
Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more:
Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units.
This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked.
Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed).
Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
1. how about making a little more than ONE overseer? and keep them behind ur army?
2. can u please explain to me HOW force field can MINIMIZE the damage when a bunch of stalkers BLINK INTO UR BALL OF ROACH HYDRA>
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On June 13 2011 20:54 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 10:45 Wren wrote:Since I'm already a zerg qq-er... On June 09 2011 21:48 Thezzy wrote:
A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either.
PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas
Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals
Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones)
OR
Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)
Seems fine to me. The zerg option is the most expensive and least powerful. That sucks. I don't expect each species to be equally good at everything, but it makes your argument look really silly if your math contradicts your point. How is Zerg the most expensive and least powerful? A PF and a Turret is powerful yes, but it comes at the cost of not building an Orbital Command, providing less Mules/Scans. It also costs the most gas. Nexus/Pylon/Cannon only has the one cannon for defense although it does allow for warp-in. Still, if you snipe the pylon, no warp-in can save the expo. Hatchery/Crawler/Spine does cost slightly more than the Protoss version (but only 25 minerals, out of 650), but it allows you to move your Spore Crawler and your Spine Crawler and the hatchery itself provides unit production, whereas the Nexus and PF can only make workers. The overseer version is the most expensive (although I'd consider 750min and 50gas to be cheaper than 650min and 150gas for the PF/Turret) but it uniquely allows mobile detection. Especially against any cloaked units that try to run, the Overseer can stay with them and allow you to kill them off. Each race has advantages and disadvantages, but I'd hardly say Zerg is somehow the weakest of the bunch when it comes to expansions.
the thing with PF and turret though is that it also provides protection against other things than dt's to kill a pf you also need a shitload of zerglings for instance.
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Completely agree with the OP. Played a game vs my protoss friend and was 100 supply ahead, but then he just warped in 12 dts and sniped my overseers with blink and they're so damn expensive to replace. He told me I had 10 overlords over my army that could have been overseers, but that's so much gas for the most unreliable detection ever.
No idea why they're so expensive anyway, they don't actually do anything. Protoss gets an invisible detector for 25/75 and one that's way way way worse and counts as supply, costs more. I think DT blink late game could become really hard to stop.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
No idea why they're so expensive anyway, they don't actually do anything. Protoss gets an invisible detector for 25/75 and one that's way way way worse and counts as supply, costs more. I think DT blink late game could become really hard to stop.
Spores? They cost 125 minerals only
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On June 14 2011 00:20 nuMi22 wrote:
Completely agree with the OP. Played a game vs my protoss friend and was 100 supply ahead, but then he just warped in 12 dts and sniped my overseers with blink and they're so damn expensive to replace. He told me I had 10 overlords over my army that could have been overseers, but that's so much gas for the most unreliable detection ever.
No idea why they're so expensive anyway, they don't actually do anything. Protoss gets an invisible detector for 25/75 and one that's way way way worse and counts as supply, costs more. I think DT blink late game could become really hard to stop.
but if u make 10 overseers, u win the game. would u do it?
people need to realize that MASS DT is basically an all-in move of itself
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I think our detection as Zerg is rather fine, specially the effectiveness of Protoss mid-late game DT's strenght is based on the sloppyness of the Zerg player. Any base can have a spine+spore and be fine against DT's. If you find that a to big of an investment I suggest having an overseer on patrol between your bases, it's simple, cheap and effective.
Armywise I see no reason to not make a couple of overseers when your maxed and ready to push out, rather be safe then sorry.
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i guess the biggest problem is that the overseer is a caster and most people don't even use its skills and just use it as a floating expensiv detector, those people could actually use a spore and save gas (though zergs in general have a higher gas income which makes the overseer pretty cheap as its gas expensiv heh). As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest. Concerning the pf, 2 dts can outmicro a pf and.
overseer + queen allows to snipe observers and abuse burrow, so a zerg has dts in their army by default so to say. So in generall a toss using only one observer is suddenly having a big problem as burrow regene kicks in.
Also fungal and banelings are pretty good dt killers. zerg has a wide collection of anti cloaked unit skills. That they are harder to pull of is simply because they have non detection vision on the whole map most of the time, making harassment in general really weak.
I really prefer zerg vision mechanics over the other races. because they are so damn cheap even though they need constant caring.
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On June 14 2011 00:40 FeyFey wrote:As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest.
How is this the case?
Zerg:
You need 2 spines and a spore to defend adequately against DTs:
(spine 100 + drone 50) x 2 = 300
(spore 75 + drone 50) = 125
-3 larva
-3 harvesters
Total: 425 minerals and 3 larva/harvesters per base
Protoss:
Photon Cannon 150
Total 150 minerals per base
Terran:
optional Turret 75 (scan can take the place of the turret)
PF: 150/150
Keep in mind, it's rare to see a T take a 3rd base that doesn't end up a PF for just general defense
Total: 225/150 per base
Also keep in mind Zerg requires more bases than both T and P
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completely disagree with the premises of this thread...and saying something like burrowing banelings is daft is kind of silly. Burrowed banelings if you use the ling/bling strat into infestors are actually really good against gateway pushes to wreck out all the sentries.
Overall detection at lair or speed or whatever would be way to powerful. Having to put up a couple extra overseers considering the cost of DT's to make the ineffective or some spore crawlers is really no big deal imo.
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On June 14 2011 02:45 RodYan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 00:40 FeyFey wrote:As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest. How is this the case? Zerg: You need 2 spines and a spore to defend adequately against DTs: (spine 100 + drone 50) x 2 = 300 (spore 75 + drone 50) = 125 -3 larva -3 harvesters Total: 425 minerals and 3 larva/harvesters per base Protoss: Photon Cannon 150 Total 150 minerals per base Terran: optional Turret 75 (scan can take the place of the turret) PF: 150/150 Keep in mind, it's rare to see a T take a 3rd base that doesn't end up a PF for just general defense Total: 225/150 per base Also keep in mind Zerg requires more bases than both T and P
No, you need 1 spore with vision and some combat units that you already have to make DTs do nothing, which comparatively is a pretty good deal (considering how much it costs the P player to get a single DT). If you want to push out you spend 50/100 on a unit that can fly, is armored with 200hp and doesn't cost any supply.
This is kind of a bad thread.
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Get infestors, use fungal growth, stop complaining. If you see any type of cloaked unit, its time for infestors. you dont need detection, you just fungal and kill it as fungal reveals cloaked units.
yay!
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given that Terran built a PF
given that Terran built a PF
alright its given you built the spines/spores then... wuts the problem then chief?
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i think zerg is the most scouting heavy race and its the hardest race to scout with to. i dont have a problem that it takes more skill to scout. zerg have good detection with oveerseer thats cheep
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On June 14 2011 03:41 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 02:45 RodYan wrote:On June 14 2011 00:40 FeyFey wrote:As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest. How is this the case? Zerg: You need 2 spines and a spore to defend adequately against DTs: (spine 100 + drone 50) x 2 = 300 (spore 75 + drone 50) = 125 -3 larva -3 harvesters Total: 425 minerals and 3 larva/harvesters per base Protoss: Photon Cannon 150 Total 150 minerals per base Terran: optional Turret 75 (scan can take the place of the turret) PF: 150/150 Keep in mind, it's rare to see a T take a 3rd base that doesn't end up a PF for just general defense Total: 225/150 per base Also keep in mind Zerg requires more bases than both T and P No, you need 1 spore with vision and some combat units that you already have to make DTs do nothing, which comparatively is a pretty good deal (considering how much it costs the P player to get a single DT). If you want to push out you spend 50/100 on a unit that can fly, is armored with 200hp and doesn't cost any supply. This is kind of a bad thread.
No. Try again. I assume you don't play Zerg because having a spore and units to kill a DT means you got lucky. Unlike how T and P are played, good Z players keep their units out on the map to scout and when attacking, a Zerg base is basically a ghost town. If a Zerg has to keep units back at each base, then that's N additional cost per unit and valuable supply to have units just sitting there JUST IN CASE he sends some DTs into that base.
You have to get the 2spines+spore at each base or risk losing when you move out. as a Master ranked Zerg I throw down 2 spines and a spore at each base at even the hint of DTs. I've lost far too many potentially-won games because 1 or 2 bases didn't have spores and spines and my units (e.g. hydras) were all the way across the map. I'm not the only one who does this, I pretty much see every pro do this same 2spine+spore configuration as well. Sometimes it's not even enough if the Protoss is clever about where and when he sends in his DTs
" If you want to push out you spend 50/100 on a unit that can fly, is armored with 200hp and doesn't cost any supply."
I have no idea what you are talking about; Zerg has no such unit as this.
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I can't even explain how many times I've lost lategame vP because he tech DT's lategame and runs 2-3 DT's into my remaining bases and snipes all the drones + the hatch before I can even react. -_-
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Zerg detection is... you've got to be kidding me
it takes a few seconds to get a overseer, and most zergs are getting lair tech anyways unless you are roachling allin in WHICH case you deserve to get steamrolled.
and no. just. no.. you guys have the BEST detection other races HAVE to go other tech paths to get it.
consider yourself LUCKY you have a detection unit that is easy to acquire!
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I'm bumping quite an old thread but due to the removal of the overseer I think it might be time to start discussing things again.
I think the viper replacing the overseer brings along a couple of new problems. This is only based on theory though, but I'm fairly sure I'm right about it.
One can only imagine that the Viper is further up the tech tree than the overseer. I think we can all agree that a flying spell caster will at least be lair tech and probably need some kind of other building to be made.
Now the overseer was Zerg's only mobile detection and it was essential when taking a third base vs DT play. You could not get the third up if you hadn't removed the DT that was waiting at the expansion. With the the removal of the overseer and the addition of the Viper I think Zergs now have to wait significantly longer in order to take that third.
Other problems like scouting difficulties that derive from not having that overseer will be left out for now. What do you guys think?
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I'd recommend opening a new thread.
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EPT
