EPTPF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas
Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals
Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones)
OR
Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)
Seems fine to me.
[D] Zerg Detection - Page 17
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones) OR Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones) Seems fine to me. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Overseers are cheap compared to other detector units. And Zerg always have the bigger econ anyhow. | ||
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ePAttack
United States112 Posts
But the only problem with getting observers is that it forces the protoss to go through robotic tech tree. Unlike the other races we can't work our way up to moving detection through protoss tech tree. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Ravens and Observers require a specific building and construction time and then need to fly to wherever they are needed. Zerg can morph the nearest Overlord to the problem and you got your detection. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
I don't really feel like that but it could easily be argued. Can't we just agree to wait and see what happens, the level of play and refinement is increasing all the time. | ||
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poorbeggarman
139 Posts
On June 09 2011 21:58 ePAttack wrote: I agree overseers are a bit over-priced. And me being a protoss player I feel observers are a little bit to cheap. But the only problem with getting observers is that it forces the protoss to go through robotic tech tree. Unlike the other races we can't work our way up to moving detection through protoss tech tree. Colossi being the cornerstone units that they are, I have to disagree that protoss players are grudgingly 'forced' to go through robo tech. Another common gripe is that observers eat into colossus production time, because they pop out of the same building. Might i point out that protoss players often make the observer after a robo finishes, or while making a support bay; therefore, the only ways observer production impedes colossus production are: 1.You want/need more observers, due to the first one getting killed etc 2.75 gas cost, delaying your robo support bay Also, even if you need to slip in an observer in between colossi, chronoboost offsets its build time somewhat. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 09 2011 17:19 Blazinghand wrote: Regarding "opportunity cost", mules, mining, and sc2: Wolfe explains this way better than I ever could. Buy a GSL pass and watch him here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503 Set 2, on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 minute mark in the VoD, or 16:24 in-game time. If you make a mule instead of a scan, 90 seconds later, you will have ~270 more minerals than if you scanned. How does scanning not cost 270 minerals? You refuse to awknowledge that each mule is 275 minerals, but that isn't a valid argument. The fact that mules take time to mine the 275 minerals is a valid argument. It takes a minute and a half, it's not an instant bonus. However, that doesn't mean a scan is worth 0 instantaneous minerals; you could also use a supply drop in place of building a supply depot, so a scan is EITHER worth 100 minerals right now or 275 minerals over the course of 90 seconds, but it's definitely worth something, and the fact that you can sacrifice DTs early on to impact terran macro, and terran's mobile non-scan detection is harder to reach than overseers... well yeah. Also... dude. Overseer production isn't limited by the larvae mechanic unless you seriously derped a lot of overlords. You can always make as many overseers as you want whenever you want if you have the resources for it, unless youw ant to make more overseers than you have overlords... the ability to simultaneously produce overseers without ANY IMPACT on your production facility (larvae) is huge. Protoss has to stop colossus production, Terran has to stop making 2x medivac or 2x viking, or stop making banshees to make a raven, and both of these races can only make one at a time. Zerg usually can make multiple units at a time, but at the cost of larvae for other units-- if you make roaches or lings, you have fewer larvae for drones or hydras. This is not the case for overseer production. With this quick detector production, along a tech route that every zerg player always takes, and with detectors doubling as both flying scout units and as supply depots, I contend that zerg has the best detection out of all three races. If you make a pair of zerglings instead of a Drone (+40minerals per minute) how can you say that in a 13min game a 3min zergling doesn't cost 10*40=400minerals more than a drone (=a total of 450minerals). Maybe one reason: Because making a zergling might allow you to survive or make 2more drones. Maybe some reasons: How can I not say that a scan is worth 270minerals? because it allows you to start viking production and not lose the game because your opponent builds colossi. Or bunkers, because your opponent is going to banelingbust you, and you would die otherwise (so a scan is often times just straight up better than any amount of minerals you might have in 90sec) How can I not say that a scan is worth 270minerals? because you can scan when you have 0minerals, but you can't build a zergling (which costs 50minerals, regardless of the time when you build it) with 0minerals. How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because you build an orbital command for 150minerals and get a scan. How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because sometimes a mule doesn't return it's last minerals to the base (depending on how far away the mineral patch is, from which the mule mines from), so statistically a mule doesn't mine 270minerals. How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because mules mine more than 270minerals from a gold expansion. Ever thought about that: Comparing mules and scans is just apples and oranges. Just like comparing Overseers and Ravens... Overseers are the standard detection for zerg, Ravens not for terrans. Just because all races have 1static and 1mobile detection, doesn't mean you can compare them. Like you cannot compare Zerglings to Marines (the first mineral only units). Siege Tanks to Colossi (the to ground siege units). Or Carriers to Ultralisks (the T3 6supply units). On June 09 2011 21:55 GinDo wrote: If Zerg has the worst detection why is it that Terrans no longer Cloak rush in TvZ at higher levels? It still is good against Toss and Terran? lol, lots of highlevel terrans cloak rush. GSL ST spoiler + Show Spoiler + ogsTop vs IMNesTea Overseers are cheap compared to other detector units. And Zerg always have the bigger econ anyhow. Zergs don't have the better economy anyhow... Zergs have the better economy most of the time because macro zerg is the standard style against a solid terran/protoss style, but some players like KyrixZeNEX or ST_July play off a lower economy than their opponents a lot of times. On June 09 2011 18:15 karpo wrote: People are here to discuss tactics, tournaments, pros, streams etc. From what i've read balance threads are not really appreciated. These discussions are like watching left and right wing politicians argue, neither will ever change his mind and they just go on and on and on without really listening to eachother. Bottom line is that i personally haven't seen more than a few pro games where cloaked units have won the match, especially not recently. IF pro's start losing alot of games due to trouble with detection we can talk about changing stuff. Idra vs MC last game at MLG is not a great example as MC outplayed Idra and had about 50% higher APM all through the match. I checked the replay and it was 170 - 250 APM average for Idra and MC respectively. Yeah, that's why my original post said: Stop the QQ and deal with the fact that Zerg (like any other race) is not great at everything. well, I have seen a lot of games that won people games through cloaked units, maybe we are just watching different games, and I would really not measure players on APM, as koreans tend to spam APM anyway and different races require different kinds and amounts of APM. (haven't seen the MLG game, can't talk about that, but just from what I have seen generally) | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On June 09 2011 22:14 Thezzy wrote: The main advantage of Overseers is that they can always be made anywhere as long as you have a Lair and the resources. Ravens and Observers require a specific building and construction time and then need to fly to wherever they are needed. Zerg can morph the nearest Overlord to the problem and you got your detection. The main disadvantage is the resource cost. They're effing SQUISHY. Sure they can do a flyby and survive one Queens fire but run an overseer by a few stalkers or marines or hydras. All of a sudden you have no way to detect during the battle unless you spam multiple overseers. | ||
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Okiesmokie
Canada379 Posts
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:54 Big J wrote: If you make a pair of zerglings instead of a Drone (+40minerals per minute) how can you say that in a 13min game a 3min zergling doesn't cost 10*40=400minerals more than a drone (=a total of 450minerals). Maybe one reason: Because making a zergling might allow you to survive or make 2more drones. Okay, you clearly didn't read my post, despite quoting it. Wolf is a professional sc2 caster who works for GSL. Listen to him talking in this match, on set 2, which is the game on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 mineu mark in the VoD, or the 16:24 minute mark in the game. Listen to him for 2 minutes-- he explains opportunity cost in sc2 in the way I understand it. http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503 You'll need to purchase a GSL ST pass to watch this, but it looks like you already have one, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On June 09 2011 21:35 Striding Strider wrote: Burrow is hardly a defensive only ability.. Oh yeah, you can shoot while burrowed? It is a keep-your-units-alive-a-little-longer ability, it can be a positional ability (for roaches/infestors only, if you get another upgrade), but in no way is it an offensive ability. Compare it to cloak. Detected DTs can still one-shot workers/marines. Detected banshees can still do tons of damage. Detected burrowed units can only die. Since I'm already a zerg qq-er... On June 09 2011 21:48 Thezzy wrote: A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either. PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones) OR Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones) Seems fine to me. The zerg option is the most expensive and least powerful. That sucks. I don't expect each species to be equally good at everything, but it makes your argument look really silly if your math contradicts your point. | ||
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Greek820
Canada210 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 10 2011 10:45 Wren wrote: Oh yeah, you can shoot while burrowed? It is a keep-your-units-alive-a-little-longer ability, it can be a positional ability (for roaches/infestors only, if you get another upgrade), but in no way is it an offensive ability. Compare it to cloak. Detected DTs can still one-shot workers/marines. Detected banshees can still do tons of damage. Detected burrowed units can only die. You can shoot infested terrans out. Also, infestors with burrow can move without additional upgrades. You can't say that a positional ability isn't offensive. Thorship rush relies on providing a thor with strong positional abilities. Can it shoot while it's in the medivac? no... but it gains so much mobility that a slow bulky unit can be used offensively, until hydras or mutas come out. you can't disjoin position from movement. Last thing: when you say "detected burrowed units can only die", you're not correct; they can also unburrow. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On June 10 2011 11:09 Blazinghand wrote: You can shoot infested terrans out. That's not an attack... The egg takes 5 seconds to hatch and has 100 health, so there's a ton of time to completely neglect that energy expense. The Infested Terran also can't attack while hidden. On June 10 2011 11:09 Blazinghand wrote: Last thing: when you say "detected burrowed units can only die", you're not correct; they can also unburrow. Then they aren't burrowed units anymore. :p | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Exactly! and then they can attack, because they're no longer burrowed!  | ||
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CrumpetGuvnor
Australia302 Posts
In short - deal with it. How do I as a Protoss know that all of a sudden a baneling bomb is going to rain down on all of my mineral lines? No need for a new thread, it's just something I have to get better at sensing. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10339 Posts
Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. Baneling mines are still effective against Protoss... | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
We'll have to see but it'll be changing "possibly". | ||
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