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[D] Zerg Detection - Page 17

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Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 12:48:43
June 09 2011 12:48 GMT
#321
A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either.

PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas

Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals

Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones)
OR
Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)

Seems fine to me.
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
June 09 2011 12:55 GMT
#322
If Zerg has the worst detection why is it that Terrans no longer Cloak rush in TvZ at higher levels? It still is good against Toss and Terran?

Overseers are cheap compared to other detector units. And Zerg always have the bigger econ anyhow.
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ePAttack
Profile Joined September 2010
United States112 Posts
June 09 2011 12:58 GMT
#323
I agree overseers are a bit over-priced. And me being a protoss player I feel observers are a little bit to cheap.

But the only problem with getting observers is that it forces the protoss to go through robotic tech tree. Unlike the other races we can't work our way up to moving detection through protoss tech tree.
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
June 09 2011 13:14 GMT
#324
The main advantage of Overseers is that they can always be made anywhere as long as you have a Lair and the resources.

Ravens and Observers require a specific building and construction time and then need to fly to wherever they are needed.

Zerg can morph the nearest Overlord to the problem and you got your detection.
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
June 09 2011 13:15 GMT
#325
If zergs pick and choose games to prove a point i could say that Top vs Nestea shows that terran detection is bad. Baneling landmines cost next to nothing and can be spread all over the map. Scans aren't viable as crossing a large map requires 3-4 scans and the zerg can burrow banelings behind the terran army to blow him up when he retreats. Ravens are slow, costs more than a overseer and can easily be sniped by the incredibly fast muts.

I don't really feel like that but it could easily be argued. Can't we just agree to wait and see what happens, the level of play and refinement is increasing all the time.
poorbeggarman
Profile Joined August 2010
139 Posts
June 09 2011 13:17 GMT
#326
On June 09 2011 21:58 ePAttack wrote:
I agree overseers are a bit over-priced. And me being a protoss player I feel observers are a little bit to cheap.

But the only problem with getting observers is that it forces the protoss to go through robotic tech tree. Unlike the other races we can't work our way up to moving detection through protoss tech tree.


Colossi being the cornerstone units that they are, I have to disagree that protoss players are grudgingly 'forced' to go through robo tech. Another common gripe is that observers eat into colossus production time, because they pop out of the same building. Might i point out that protoss players often make the observer after a robo finishes, or while making a support bay; therefore, the only ways observer production impedes colossus production are:
1.You want/need more observers, due to the first one getting killed etc
2.75 gas cost, delaying your robo support bay

Also, even if you need to slip in an observer in between colossi, chronoboost offsets its build time somewhat.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 15:55:25
June 09 2011 15:54 GMT
#327
On June 09 2011 17:19 Blazinghand wrote:
Regarding "opportunity cost", mules, mining, and sc2: Wolfe explains this way better than I ever could. Buy a GSL pass and watch him here:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503
Set 2, on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 minute mark in the VoD, or 16:24 in-game time.

Show nested quote +
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:

On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze.
A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect.


Im not saying that scaning is for free. But they are meant to scan once or twice for scouting purposes and they are meant to have scans for mobile detection, so I refuse to acknowledge every scan as a "should be"-mule and I also refuse to acknowledge every mule as 275minerals, as they still have to mine it (which takes some time) and have a backfire too, as you bases will run out pretty quickly. (which means heavy muling leads to more investment into faster expanding)


If you make a mule instead of a scan, 90 seconds later, you will have ~270 more minerals than if you scanned. How does scanning not cost 270 minerals? You refuse to awknowledge that each mule is 275 minerals, but that isn't a valid argument.

The fact that mules take time to mine the 275 minerals is a valid argument. It takes a minute and a half, it's not an instant bonus. However, that doesn't mean a scan is worth 0 instantaneous minerals; you could also use a supply drop in place of building a supply depot, so a scan is EITHER worth 100 minerals right now or 275 minerals over the course of 90 seconds, but it's definitely worth something, and the fact that you can sacrifice DTs early on to impact terran macro, and terran's mobile non-scan detection is harder to reach than overseers... well yeah.

Also... dude. Overseer production isn't limited by the larvae mechanic unless you seriously derped a lot of overlords. You can always make as many overseers as you want whenever you want if you have the resources for it, unless youw ant to make more overseers than you have overlords... the ability to simultaneously produce overseers without ANY IMPACT on your production facility (larvae) is huge. Protoss has to stop colossus production, Terran has to stop making 2x medivac or 2x viking, or stop making banshees to make a raven, and both of these races can only make one at a time.

Zerg usually can make multiple units at a time, but at the cost of larvae for other units-- if you make roaches or lings, you have fewer larvae for drones or hydras. This is not the case for overseer production. With this quick detector production, along a tech route that every zerg player always takes, and with detectors doubling as both flying scout units and as supply depots, I contend that zerg has the best detection out of all three races.





If you make a pair of zerglings instead of a Drone (+40minerals per minute) how can you say that in a 13min game a 3min zergling doesn't cost 10*40=400minerals more than a drone (=a total of 450minerals).
Maybe one reason: Because making a zergling might allow you to survive or make 2more drones.

Maybe some reasons:
How can I not say that a scan is worth 270minerals? because it allows you to start viking production and not lose the game because your opponent builds colossi. Or bunkers, because your opponent is going to banelingbust you, and you would die otherwise (so a scan is often times just straight up better than any amount of minerals you might have in 90sec)
How can I not say that a scan is worth 270minerals? because you can scan when you have 0minerals, but you can't build a zergling (which costs 50minerals, regardless of the time when you build it) with 0minerals.
How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because you build an orbital command for 150minerals and get a scan.
How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because sometimes a mule doesn't return it's last minerals to the base (depending on how far away the mineral patch is, from which the mule mines from), so statistically a mule doesn't mine 270minerals.
How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because mules mine more than 270minerals from a gold expansion.

Ever thought about that: Comparing mules and scans is just apples and oranges.
Just like comparing Overseers and Ravens... Overseers are the standard detection for zerg, Ravens not for terrans. Just because all races have 1static and 1mobile detection, doesn't mean you can compare them. Like you cannot compare Zerglings to Marines (the first mineral only units). Siege Tanks to Colossi (the to ground siege units). Or Carriers to Ultralisks (the T3 6supply units).



On June 09 2011 21:55 GinDo wrote:
If Zerg has the worst detection why is it that Terrans no longer Cloak rush in TvZ at higher levels? It still is good against Toss and Terran?


lol, lots of highlevel terrans cloak rush.
GSL ST spoiler
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Overseers are cheap compared to other detector units. And Zerg always have the bigger econ anyhow.


Zergs don't have the better economy anyhow... Zergs have the better economy most of the time because macro zerg is the standard style against a solid terran/protoss style, but some players like KyrixZeNEX or ST_July play off a lower economy than their opponents a lot of times.


On June 09 2011 18:15 karpo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2011 17:58 Big J wrote:
On June 09 2011 17:06 karpo wrote:
On June 09 2011 16:46 Big J wrote:

On June 09 2011 06:26 karpo wrote:
Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help.


Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help.

Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them.
I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect!


I wrote that cause your post didn't provide anything worthwhile. There's really nothing to understand about this, it's zerg whine in a sea of zerg whine about a million different things. It's tiresome to read zergs posts about everything being worse for them and how they need 10 different changes to be viable.

There's no reason to remove any race as the recent win statistics show that zergs are doing fine in high level play and tournaments.




So in your opinion I must not critizise anything in the game or suggest something about it? I guess you are in the wrong place then. This is a forum, and people are here to discuss stuff.


People are here to discuss tactics, tournaments, pros, streams etc. From what i've read balance threads are not really appreciated. These discussions are like watching left and right wing politicians argue, neither will ever change his mind and they just go on and on and on without really listening to eachother.

Bottom line is that i personally haven't seen more than a few pro games where cloaked units have won the match, especially not recently. IF pro's start losing alot of games due to trouble with detection we can talk about changing stuff. Idra vs MC last game at MLG is not a great example as MC outplayed Idra and had about 50% higher APM all through the match.

I checked the replay and it was 170 - 250 APM average for Idra and MC respectively.




Yeah, that's why my original post said: Stop the QQ and deal with the fact that Zerg (like any other race) is not great at everything.
well, I have seen a lot of games that won people games through cloaked units, maybe we are just watching different games, and I would really not measure players on APM, as koreans tend to spam APM anyway and different races require different kinds and amounts of APM. (haven't seen the MLG game, can't talk about that, but just from what I have seen generally)
DARKHYDRA
Profile Joined September 2006
United States303 Posts
June 09 2011 16:57 GMT
#328
I think the main reason this comes up as an issue is that a lot of us zerg players played the race in broodwar where detection was one of the strengths of the race, now its not only higher tech but much more limited due to cost. This is defintely a huge nerf in the eyes of broodwar zerg players.
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
June 09 2011 21:24 GMT
#329
On June 09 2011 22:14 Thezzy wrote:
The main advantage of Overseers is that they can always be made anywhere as long as you have a Lair and the resources.

Ravens and Observers require a specific building and construction time and then need to fly to wherever they are needed.

Zerg can morph the nearest Overlord to the problem and you got your detection.


The main disadvantage is the resource cost.

They're effing SQUISHY. Sure they can do a flyby and survive one Queens fire but run an overseer by a few stalkers or marines or hydras.

All of a sudden you have no way to detect during the battle unless you spam multiple overseers.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Okiesmokie
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada379 Posts
June 09 2011 22:30 GMT
#330
You're talking like protoss get dark templars for free. God forbid it cost you 100 gas and a few seconds to get an overseer when Protoss invests 375 minerals, 475 gas and 150 seconds to get a dt.
Uhh Negative
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1090 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 22:34:47
June 09 2011 22:34 GMT
#331
The same thing could be said if zerg used overseers with corrupters or hydras to snipe observers then burrow roaches (which are extremely strong unburrowed right next to/underneath the enemy. I don't think it's a problem. He snipes your overseer(s) your retreat while making another one.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
June 10 2011 01:28 GMT
#332
On June 10 2011 00:54 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2011 17:19 Blazinghand wrote:
Regarding "opportunity cost", mules, mining, and sc2: Wolfe explains this way better than I ever could. Buy a GSL pass and watch him here:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503
Set 2, on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 minute mark in the VoD, or 16:24 in-game time.



If you make a pair of zerglings instead of a Drone (+40minerals per minute) how can you say that in a 13min game a 3min zergling doesn't cost 10*40=400minerals more than a drone (=a total of 450minerals).
Maybe one reason: Because making a zergling might allow you to survive or make 2more drones.


Okay, you clearly didn't read my post, despite quoting it.

Wolf is a professional sc2 caster who works for GSL. Listen to him talking in this match, on set 2, which is the game on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 mineu mark in the VoD, or the 16:24 minute mark in the game. Listen to him for 2 minutes-- he explains opportunity cost in sc2 in the way I understand it.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503

You'll need to purchase a GSL ST pass to watch this, but it looks like you already have one, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Wren
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States745 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-10 01:47:34
June 10 2011 01:45 GMT
#333
On June 09 2011 21:35 Striding Strider wrote:
Burrow is hardly a defensive only ability..

Oh yeah, you can shoot while burrowed?

It is a keep-your-units-alive-a-little-longer ability, it can be a positional ability (for roaches/infestors only, if you get another upgrade), but in no way is it an offensive ability.

Compare it to cloak. Detected DTs can still one-shot workers/marines. Detected banshees can still do tons of damage. Detected burrowed units can only die.

Since I'm already a zerg qq-er...
On June 09 2011 21:48 Thezzy wrote:
A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either.

PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas

Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals

Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones)
OR
Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)

Seems fine to me.

The zerg option is the most expensive and least powerful. That sucks.

I don't expect each species to be equally good at everything, but it makes your argument look really silly if your math contradicts your point.
We're here! We're queer! We don't want any more bears!
Greek820
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada210 Posts
June 10 2011 01:48 GMT
#334
meh i see no problem with zerg detection lol - overseers and spore crawlers are good enough for me 0.0
(>^.^)>~~~ Phenom ii x4 955, Gigabyte 6850, g.skill 4gb ripjaws, GA-880GA mobo, corsair cx500w, storm scout, WD 500gb blue
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
June 10 2011 02:09 GMT
#335
On June 10 2011 10:45 Wren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2011 21:35 Striding Strider wrote:
Burrow is hardly a defensive only ability..

Oh yeah, you can shoot while burrowed?

It is a keep-your-units-alive-a-little-longer ability, it can be a positional ability (for roaches/infestors only, if you get another upgrade), but in no way is it an offensive ability.

Compare it to cloak. Detected DTs can still one-shot workers/marines. Detected banshees can still do tons of damage. Detected burrowed units can only die.


You can shoot infested terrans out.

Also, infestors with burrow can move without additional upgrades.

You can't say that a positional ability isn't offensive. Thorship rush relies on providing a thor with strong positional abilities. Can it shoot while it's in the medivac? no... but it gains so much mobility that a slow bulky unit can be used offensively, until hydras or mutas come out.

you can't disjoin position from movement.

Last thing: when you say "detected burrowed units can only die", you're not correct; they can also unburrow.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Wren
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States745 Posts
June 10 2011 03:05 GMT
#336
On June 10 2011 11:09 Blazinghand wrote:
You can shoot infested terrans out.


That's not an attack... The egg takes 5 seconds to hatch and has 100 health, so there's a ton of time to completely neglect that energy expense. The Infested Terran also can't attack while hidden.

On June 10 2011 11:09 Blazinghand wrote:
Last thing: when you say "detected burrowed units can only die", you're not correct; they can also unburrow.

Then they aren't burrowed units anymore. :p
We're here! We're queer! We don't want any more bears!
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
June 10 2011 04:41 GMT
#337
On June 10 2011 12:05 Wren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2011 11:09 Blazinghand wrote:
Last thing: when you say "detected burrowed units can only die", you're not correct; they can also unburrow.

Then they aren't burrowed units anymore. :p


Exactly! and then they can attack, because they're no longer burrowed!
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
CrumpetGuvnor
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia302 Posts
June 10 2011 04:54 GMT
#338
I dont get the OP. We are talking late game so if both players are of even skill then the Zerg has a bigger economy. Maybe the threat of DT harass is meant to curb the Zerg's economy ever so slightly. It's really not that big of a deal to notice that if the Protoss has blink, +2 weApOns or armour, that DTs may be possible. And really, in late game, it's not like you are going to be hard pressed to spare a few minerals for some static defense at an expansion. We Protoss have to put 5 or 6 cannons up at our expansions. Its not like we just throw 1 up and that means were safe from burrowed roaches.

In short - deal with it. How do I as a Protoss know that all of a sudden a baneling bomb is going to rain down on all of my mineral lines? No need for a new thread, it's just something I have to get better at sensing.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10332 Posts
June 10 2011 05:00 GMT
#339
Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable.


Baneling mines are still effective against Protoss...
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
June 10 2011 05:07 GMT
#340
Dustin Browder said the Overseer may be removed/replaced in HotS Does that mean Zerg gets a new detection unit? Overlords maybe get an ability to detect?

We'll have to see but it'll be changing "possibly".
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
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