EPT[D] Zerg Detection - Page 15
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moondoggy
United States14 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
if Zerg players would use contamination more aggressiv, this wouldn't be even an issue. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 09 2011 05:51 freetgy wrote: if toss needs to get multiple observers so has Zerg to get multiple Overseers, if Zerg players would use contamination more aggressiv, this wouldn't be even an issue. I think zerg's detection is fine, but contaminate isn't a viable spell under most circumstances. When you do an overseer flyover, yeah, you can stop to contaminate a forge or a robo bay or whatever. But to regularly use contaminate in a meaningful fashion, you have to have several overseers in the protoss airspace instead of with your main army-- where you need them to detect. Contaminate isn't useless... but it's certainly use-impaired. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Yeah Overseer detection sucks for obvious reasons. Yeah Overseers themselves are a useless unit besides their detection ability (and even blizzard admits it). Yeah tons of people in this thread behave like they are grandmaster zergs, while losing to every 2gate or 2rax push when they actually play zerg. Yeah Zerg detection kind of sucks, because spores are usually "detection only" buildings and overseers "detecion only" units, while you pay for antiair and useless spells too. Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze. Yeah Photon canons and Turrets help versus or shut down a lot of our harass options(roaches, infestor, mutas, drops), and it sucks, that because of premptive antimuta turrets, noone can ever do infestor harass. Yeah I've lost way more than 1game to cloaked units (be it banshees, dts, ghosts that perfectly EMP my infestors or observers, that you didn't find and which watched your composition for 5-10min) Yeah "gas comparing" comments about the early game and early midgame are just dumb, as zerg has to invest in expanding earlier and droning earlier, and therefore simply can't take his gases as fast as terran or protoss. BUT: this is how zerg works, and this is how the game works. DT harass mid to lategame and vulnerable overseers in armies are annoying, but part of it. If blizzard changes this, horray! If not build that freaking spore crawler at each base, and if you don't have the APM for splitting some zerglings of your army, I guess you will still have to build a spinecrawler. And if you lose because one of those "Zerg only needs to 1a" but "forcefielding a doublesized ramp tightly with 10overlapping forcefields shows real skill" guys did his little DT lategame "oh I hope he is not prepared, because Starcraft is a game which you win by crossing your fingers harder than your opponent"-cheese: Turn on the GSL and watch NesTea roflstopming those allinning noobs and learn from him! | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Overseer detection sucks for obvious reasons. Yeah Overseers themselves are a useless unit besides their detection ability (and even blizzard admits it). Overseers seem to detect just as well as ravens... also, you can build them whenever you want without using up supply or prod fac time, and they DO do something besides detect, and that's be a supply depot. On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze. A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect.Yeah Photon canons and Turrets help versus or shut down a lot of our harass options(roaches, infestor, mutas, drops), and it sucks, that because of premptive antimuta turrets, noone can ever do infestor harass. And anti-banshee spore crawlers also kill medivacs if you try to marine drop, and anti-phoenix spore crawlers also work against DTs. Photon cannons are more flexible in that they hit ground. Yeah "gas comparing" comments about the early game and early midgame are just dumb, as zerg has to invest in expanding earlier and droning earlier, and therefore simply can't take his gases as fast as terran or protoss. your words, not mine-- there's a variety of zerg builds that take early gas, and either mine from it all game, or mine from it for early zerglings or roaches, then stop, or take late gasses (as late as spanishiwa's build, even). In the same sense, the good macro-heavy TvZ opening, a 2 rax pressure FE, doesnt' take gasses until the command center for the expo is started, and even then it feels like tanks come out slow, relative to terran fast gas builds that get hellions or banshees-- builds that, mind you, set you back economically since you expo late and have less minerals, and make you vulnerable to early attacks since you don't have marauders, tanks or stim.BUT: this is how zerg works, and this is how the game works. DT harass mid to lategame and vulnerable overseers in armies are annoying, but part of it. If blizzard changes this, horray! If not build that freaking spore crawler at each base, and if you don't have the APM for splitting some zerglings of your army, I guess you will still have to build a spinecrawler. And if you lose because one of those "Zerg only needs to 1a" but "forcefielding a doublesized ramp tightly with 10overlapping forcefields shows real skill" guys did his little DT lategame "oh I hope he is not prepared, because Starcraft is a game which you win by crossing your fingers harder than your opponent"-cheese: Turn on the GSL and watch NesTea roflstopming those allinning noobs and learn from him! oh nvm it seems we largely agree. I actually think protoss has the most restrictive detection, for a number of reasons: 1) outside of the static defense (photon cannon), protoss has only one detector, the observer, unlike zerg's 2 (infestor and overseer) and terran's 3 (scan, ghost, and raven). 2) The protoss detector comes out of its high tech, slow producing robo facility, competing for time with immortals, colossi, and warp prisms 3) the protoss detector, while it benefits from being cloaked, is laughably easy to destroy-- 1-shotted by thors, among other things. 4) if protoss doesn't specifically go robo, and techs to HTs or stargate first, he has to make cannons to detect, whereas terran will always have orbital commands, and every zerg tech gets lair on the way-- he can easily be trapped in his base, and unlike terran who can scan or zerg who can turn any supply depot into a detector, he has to go down a NEW TECH PATH to get his detection. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote: Come on fellow zergs, stop the QQ (and Im sure Im not the only one who doesn't think this is complete imbalance) Yeah Overseer detection sucks for obvious reasons. Yeah Overseers themselves are a useless unit besides their detection ability (and even blizzard admits it). Yeah tons of people in this thread behave like they are grandmaster zergs, while losing to every 2gate or 2rax push when they actually play zerg. Yeah Zerg detection kind of sucks, because spores are usually "detection only" buildings and overseers "detecion only" units, while you pay for antiair and useless spells too. Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze. Yeah Photon canons and Turrets help versus or shut down a lot of our harass options(roaches, infestor, mutas, drops), and it sucks, that because of premptive antimuta turrets, noone can ever do infestor harass. Yeah I've lost way more than 1game to cloaked units (be it banshees, dts, ghosts that perfectly EMP my infestors or observers, that you didn't find and which watched your composition for 5-10min) Yeah "gas comparing" comments about the early game and early midgame are just dumb, as zerg has to invest in expanding earlier and droning earlier, and therefore simply can't take his gases as fast as terran or protoss. BUT: this is how zerg works, and this is how the game works. DT harass mid to lategame and vulnerable overseers in armies are annoying, but part of it. If blizzard changes this, horray! If not build that freaking spore crawler at each base, and if you don't have the APM for splitting some zerglings of your army, I guess you will still have to build a spinecrawler. And if you lose because one of those "Zerg only needs to 1a" but "forcefielding a doublesized ramp tightly with 10overlapping forcefields shows real skill" guys did his little DT lategame "oh I hope he is not prepared, because Starcraft is a game which you win by crossing your fingers harder than your opponent"-cheese: Turn on the GSL and watch NesTea roflstopming those allinning noobs and learn from him! Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help. | ||
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Grendel
Belgium126 Posts
While you can whine all you want about "needing" to put down static def at every expo, zerg in lategame usually floats a lot of minerals anyway. When pushing, protoss has nothing with a long rang to air, and their only possibility to take down that overseer effectively is either feedback or blink. Feedback isn't even likely to kill an overseer and blink.. Well, if he can blink and kill your overseer, he will have to blink into your army, which will lose him a lot of units. Also, DT are melee. This means you never have to send your overseer in front of your army, you can always keep you overseer in the back and still see those DT. And if you don't like it, you can always slow push your way with spore crawlers. Unorthodox, I know, but you guys act like you don't have options, while you have. Zerg still has some issues, but detection is NOT one of them. | ||
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Samuel Neptune
United States95 Posts
On June 09 2011 01:11 Existor wrote: Wrong - for 125 at base we can kill DT at any base with super fast lings (creep) did you conveniently forget i was responding to what the guy i quoted posted? | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
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Samuel Neptune
United States95 Posts
On June 09 2011 01:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So now we need turrets at every single base, 2-4 ravens, bunkers filled with marines at every base, etc. ? So now we need cannons at every base, 2-4 observers, less robo time for colossi, etc? To detect one unit? No... wait... It's to shut down the threat of all burrowed and cloaked units. And don't ignore how much money dark templar tech actually costs. The Protoss isn't going to get a quick twilight council and dark shrine to get a single dark templar to make YOU waste money lol. He'd be much further behind than you. legitimately responding to this post requires that i acknowledge your stupidity first. so, you're stupid i'm talking about zerg, first off. given the the op named this thread "zerg detection." it appears that's beyond your observational ability secondly, i was responding to what the toss player suggested zerg should do. i was pointing out that defending against dts in the way he suggested would be ridiculous because it would cost too much thirdly, we were talking about the late game so, please, just leave | ||
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Samuel Neptune
United States95 Posts
On June 09 2011 01:46 willoc wrote: Ya. DTs are so overpowered vs. Zerg right now. That's why you always see them being used in that match up. /sarcasm. you're silly | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
On June 09 2011 04:39 karpo wrote: Overseer morph is 17 ingame seconds which is, i believe, even lower on "faster" game speed. 12 stalkers need to blink forward to kill a overseer in one volley, if you have two overseers i can't see how it's worth it. Maybe have overseers on a different hotkey and keep them in the back of your army as their detection range is huge? Maybe spread them like protoss does with templars? There's more ways of developing the actual play of zergs instead of suggesting changes just cause it's more comfortable. I haven't suggesting any changes, not to the game at least... Just that zergs should morph a few more overseers and keep them with their army when they're playing against a protoss. It's arguably not the best usage of gas but at at least it doesn't take supply... And they can always be used to contaminate later... Unlike corruptors. Also not sure where you got the 12 stalker number. Overseers have 200 health stalkers do 14 -1 damage to armored? | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
I don't even build more than 1 overseer unless DTs are on the map. Overlord speed is expensive but its 1 overlord with speed is the most cost efficient scout especially since zerg tends to have a lot of minerals. It's pretty unforgiving though when you're already behind. You spend a shitload of money on only scouting because you're afraid he's going to send dts or is tech switching to cloak banshee and what not... I could go on but this is a discussion of Overseers vs Protoss armies, so I'll just say that with usually good control (keeping it as far back as possible) you should be okay. It's also important to drop changelings in order to not get feedbacked. On June 09 2011 05:51 freetgy wrote: if toss needs to get multiple observers so has Zerg to get multiple Overseers, if Zerg players would use contamination more aggressiv, this wouldn't be even an issue. sorry not going to spend 100 gas for one contaminate. If you place your robo in a spot that lets me go in and go out without your fast stalkers reaching in time you're not a good player. Contaminate is to give value to a scout that is going to die anyways. 50/100 is really expensive in the mid game man. | ||
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Samuel Neptune
United States95 Posts
On June 09 2011 03:22 brutality wrote: I'm speaking from actual experience, not making this up on the fly to sound right...Every time I use DTs late game and in my army comp the zerg will have spines and spores and each expansion and multiple overseers with his army. It's really not a big deal to make a few overseers to WIN THE GAME lol Still gonna use DTs though because they can win games against an unprepared zerg. You really want to talk about cost??? DT tech costs a buttload and DTs that just run up to an expansion and do no damage because of proper defense put the toss BEHIND O.o Having zerglings separate from your army to deal with harass back at home is def not a big deal. Toss does it ALL THE TIME. we leave HT's/DTs at our expansions to deal with terran drops, and stalkers in our main... so the zerg scouts your dark shrine every time? you must be extremely skilled at concealing buildings "Still gonna use DTs though because they can win games against an unprepared zerg." like this part tho | ||
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Mr. Enchilada
United States274 Posts
Does anyone remember the mass air for Terran funday Monday? Does anyone remember what happened with the TvP? Hm , let menthink, the Terran went one raven and like 4 Vikings to snipe the observer then the banshees undetected just straight up killed the toss. So before you talk about being so uncommon and unheard of, think back to day 9. And I'm mid-high diamond so this isn't a bronze league occurrence or anything. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Yes, the overseer does not have cool abilities like the Raven, but neither does an Observer. Yes, the Overseer is easily snipable but easily rebuilt(and don't say to me that Zerg can't afford 100 gas not to die) I mean, 100 gas 50 mins and 17 seconds and don't come to me saying that it costs 150 minerals because overlords are something you build anyways. A Spore crawler takes 30 seconds to build and costs 75(plus 50 from the drone). If anything when a Zerg needs emergency detection they are the ones who can easily have it anywhere they have Overlords. If you get the speed Upgrade overseers outrun the normal speed of units in SC2. Also overseers are opened to any daring Zerg that techs to Lair. If you are going to delay Lair to get a better economy and don't try to at least scout where the Gas from a T or a P is going you should be building some safety spore crawlers(did I mention they Build super fast?). I just don't get it, if a P is caught by Cloacked\ Burrowed units and he doesn't have a Forge or dared not to build a Robo Facility they are dead. Ifa Terran is out of Orbital Energy when a cloacked or Burrowed units enter their base they will suffer a lot of Damage too. I mean both T and P have to give up something(economy in most of the cases) to be safe against Cloacked units.(And yeah while a Scan doesn't cost you anything but Energy its inane to say that they are not giving up on something). If you are dying to cloacked rushes its nothing more than your lack of scouting or playing risky(See how Nestea played in the GSL finals). If you are suffering a lot of damage from Cloacked units late/mid game that is also your own damn fault, and by that time Overseers are quite available. Lets compare stats: Mobile detection: Zerg: -Overseer. requires Lair, costs 50 mins 100 gas, same speed as an unupgraded observer.Takes 17 seconds to build.Also, doesn't cost food.Has spells that have little offensive use..Speed can be upgraded Protoss: -Oberver: requires a Robotics facility, costs 25 mins and 75 gas. Takes 40 seconds to build(aprox 26 seconds when Chrono Boosted ). Take up 1 Food.Cloacked. Less HP than an Overseer.No extra abilities. Speed can be upgraded. Terran: -Raven:Costs 100 mins 200 gas(!!). Takes 60 seconds to build, has less HP than an Overseer, better speed than un upgraded obs\overseer. uses 2 food, requires a starport with a techlab. Static detection: Zerg: 125 mins and 35 seconds for an evo chamber + 125 and 30 seconds for the spore crawler. The spore crawler has more HP than a Turret and a Cannon. Can only attack air. Terran: 125 mins and 35 seconds for an E-bay+ 100 mins and 25 seconds for a turret. Turret has less HP than a photon cannon and less than a spore crawler. can only attack air. Protoss 150 mins and 45 seconds for a forge +150 mins and 40 seconds for a cannon. Cannon has less HP than a spore but slightly more than a Turret. Special case: Scanner sweep. Which is readily available as long as you have energy on your any of your OCs, lasts 12.3 seconds and you give up mules and supply drop for that.Still I think Terran got the better end of the detection. After seeing all that I just don't get why Zergs have problem with detection, their detection can come faster(as in emergency detection), is sturdier and is of comparable cost than the detection of the other 2 races. Sorry if I sound confrontational, but to me it seems that on terms of detection all 3 races are even. Hell I'd even say that Zerg post Lair are Race with the Best Emergency detection capabilities as they will always have Overlords to morph, while a P and a Terran will need to invest additional money or at least give up on economy to get detection. Edit: Forgot to add. About T and P not needing to invest in detection that is because Zergs are not threatening enough with burrowed units. One thing that is terribly underused are offensive tunneling claws and baneling mines for Map control, of course that is up to the players to use. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:44 Mr. Enchilada wrote: It was on scrap station where the base is so fucking huge and he hid them in the corner. Of course I had to suicide units to deny an expansion you fucktard. You expect me to turtle on my 3 base whileterran can literally go take EVERY expansion!? NO. I had to suicide to deny the expansion. And while agree you need infestors and that that was my own fault. BUT let's say you didn't have an infestation pit and low and behold it gets sniped by all the banshees and I need all y gas to survive, until my lair is up and I have enough to support infestors I'm fucked. That's what happened in this game. I also counter attacked his base repeatedly. Buy without enough time to get infestor support banshee Viking kills Zerg. I saw something in a tournament a bit after the game launched where the Terran did the SAME build. Know what Tastosis said the respOnse was? Infestors. Why? Because they reveal the unit for 8 fucking seconds. 75 energy for 4 seconds of detection? Not worth it because each infestor is 2 more hydras which you need to shoot the fucking banshees out of the sky in the first place. And I know TL is 90% full of jackasses who will say "make mutas rather than hydras... And macro." there were 12-15 Vikings flying around. Does anyone remember the mass air for Terran funday Monday? Does anyone remember what happened with the TvP? Hm , let menthink, the Terran went one raven and like 4 Vikings to snipe the observer then the banshees undetected just straight up killed the toss. So before you talk about being so uncommon and unheard of, think back to day 9. And I'm mid-high diamond so this isn't a bronze league occurrence or anything. Again you describe games where a terran went some stupid build that's not popular and probably terrible if you actually learn to deal with it properly. Stop using these gimmicky game as some kind of huge example of how hard zergs have it. No pros i've seen have used this tactic which shows it's not that good. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:17 DuneBug wrote: I haven't suggesting any changes, not to the game at least... Just that zergs should morph a few more overseers and keep them with their army when they're playing against a protoss. It's arguably not the best usage of gas but at at least it doesn't take supply... And they can always be used to contaminate later... Unlike corruptors. Also not sure where you got the 12 stalker number. Overseers have 200 health stalkers do 14 -1 damage to armored? Yeah i was wrong, it's actually 16 stalkers to oneshot a 1 armor overseer. I was using the example of +3 weapons stalkers, that's where the number came from. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Overseers seem to detect just as well as ravens... also, you can build them whenever you want without using up supply or prod fac time, and they DO do something besides detect, and that's be a supply depot. Well but this is how zerg works. Getting basic units from basic structures. It simply comes with the larva mechanism, that some basic things have to be easily accessible, to be there in time, while tech with a "my enemy has to react" concept has to be later accessible, else zerg would just roflstomp everyone with a 5min mutarush or something like that. (Imagine overseers requiring a spire... You would simply die in every PvZ to 6gate. Or imagine it requiring a hydra den. It had simply no use in ZvT) And about the supply depot ability: as most people in this thread said an overseer costs 50/100 I decided to judge him on this costs. With supply depot ability you have to count him has 150/100 and you really don't need the overseer part for that... And I really want to add that the overseer has one ability, we never see used in high level play, as changelings can be fought by APM, so I just think it is a bad ability, if you can beat ingame resources with outofgame resources. (and contaminate has proven to be not worth risking a 150/100 unit, which you have to rebuild) A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect. Im not saying that scaning is for free. But they are meant to scan once or twice for scouting purposes and they are meant to have scans for mobile detection, so I refuse to acknowledge every scan as a "should be"-mule and I also refuse to acknowledge every mule as 275minerals, as they still have to mine it (which takes some time) and have a backfire too, as you bases will run out pretty quickly. (which means heavy muling leads to more investment into faster expanding) And anti-banshee spore crawlers also kill medivacs if you try to marine drop, and anti-phoenix spore crawlers also work against DTs. Photon cannons are more flexible in that they hit ground. Well, at least in my eyes there is a certain theme how races are supposed to work, and for zerg this would be techswitching, while Protoss and Terran are both meant to pick techpaths (especially terran). I guess in this context you can see, how I think of turrets having a great use against lots of zerg's techs is somewhat of more annoying as for Protoss and Terran in the midgame, who might just not be supposed to have a robo/stargate/high warptech army opposed to zerg, which is supposed to have a spire, a roach warren and an infestation pit with burrow. Not saying that spores on various bases don't suck for the other races too, though I think it has more impact on Zerg play. your words, not mine-- there's a variety of zerg builds that take early gas, and either mine from it all game, or mine from it for early zerglings or roaches, then stop, or take late gasses (as late as spanishiwa's build, even). In the same sense, the good macro-heavy TvZ opening, a 2 rax pressure FE, doesnt' take gasses until the command center for the expo is started, and even then it feels like tanks come out slow, relative to terran fast gas builds that get hellions or banshees-- builds that, mind you, set you back economically since you expo late and have less minerals, and make you vulnerable to early attacks since you don't have marauders, tanks or stim. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have NEVER seen a high level zerg taking 2gases early. One gas yes, and this is usually for speed, very rarely we see a fast lair coming from it so a comparison "robo 100gas, observer 75gas" ~= "lair 100gas, overseer 100gas", which I have seen in this thread is just bullshit. This is just bad argumentation, you cannot compare the costs of races in such a linear way, as they are different from each other and require different things. (f.e. at some point you need zerglingspeed as zerg, or you need at least 1sentry early as protoss; while you don't need to invest into an expansion as protoss or terran if zerg does not expand) oh nvm it seems we largely agree. I actually think protoss has the most restrictive detection, for a number of reasons: 1) outside of the static defense (photon cannon), protoss has only one detector, the observer, unlike zerg's 2 (infestor and overseer) and terran's 3 (scan, ghost, and raven). 2) The protoss detector comes out of its high tech, slow producing robo facility, competing for time with immortals, colossi, and warp prisms 3) the protoss detector, while it benefits from being cloaked, is laughably easy to destroy-- 1-shotted by thors, among other things. 4) if protoss doesn't specifically go robo, and techs to HTs or stargate first, he has to make cannons to detect, whereas terran will always have orbital commands, and every zerg tech gets lair on the way-- he can easily be trapped in his base, and unlike terran who can scan or zerg who can turn any supply depot into a detector, he has to go down a NEW TECH PATH to get his detection. well, if you want to know my opinion: yes I think protoss has the worst detection in some kind of way, but as blizzard knew from BW, in PvZ Protoss needs canon also I think every other race would love to trade the observer for the raven or the overseer yeah fungal and EMP detect, but storm (and on purpose exploded banelings) does terrible damage to cloaked units too, so protoss are not completly without alternate ways of dealing with cloaked units (also colossus splashes cloaked units, when they hit a nearby unit) On June 09 2011 06:26 karpo wrote: Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help. Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help. Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them. I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect! | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On June 09 2011 16:46 Big J wrote: Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help. Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them. I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect! I wrote that cause your post didn't provide anything worthwhile. There's really nothing to understand about this, it's zerg whine in a sea of zerg whine about a million different things. It's tiresome to read zergs posts about everything being worse for them and how they need 10 different changes to be viable. There's no reason to remove any race as the recent win statistics show that zergs are doing fine in high level play and tournaments. | ||
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