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Russian Federation4295 Posts
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
Wrong - for 125 at base we can kill DT at any base with super fast lings (creep)
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On June 08 2011 22:56 Samuel Neptune wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:19 brutality wrote:
I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying. so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right? so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae and then there's the actual damage done by the dts the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
So now we need turrets at every single base, 2-4 ravens, bunkers filled with marines at every base, etc. ?
So now we need cannons at every base, 2-4 observers, less robo time for colossi, etc?
To detect one unit? No... wait... It's to shut down the threat of all burrowed and cloaked units. And don't ignore how much money dark templar tech actually costs. The Protoss isn't going to get a quick twilight council and dark shrine to get a single dark templar to make YOU waste money lol. He'd be much further behind than you.
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I love how a Zerg is complaining about detection when they arguable have the best detection in the game.....
1) Spore crawlers can be moved when needed, Cannons and Turrets can't.
2) Overseers have great scouting ultility and a shit tonne of HP's for a detection unit compared with a Raven (which costs 100/200 and takes away starport time) and a observer (that takes up robo time)
3) Overseers can be built from any of the 20 or so overlords Zerg will have late game
You can't have the ability to basically build detection from another unit, that doesn't cost you unit production time and is fairly cheap in reality, has far more HP than the T/P options and is Armored and have static detection THAT CAN MOVE and then complain about your detection being bad.... you can't have everything.
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I couldn't disagree more.
Zerg detection is the BEST. Since all races have static D, its really a comparison of raven+scan / observer / overseer. Zerg doesn't need any special building to get the unit other than lair; whereas P need robo and Terran need starport+tech lab.
Spine+spore can handle lategame dt harass in PvZ. Terran doesnt even have a static D that attacks ground.
You basically argue that Blink makes overseers too vulnerable. Well, if protoss blinks his stalkers into your army and doesn't die (sniping overseer or not) then you probably lost anyways. You can build more than overseer. Overlords are often everywhere, and so a few seconds later so can an Overseer.
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On June 09 2011 01:29 Mr_Kyo wrote:
Spine+spore can handle lategame dt harass in PvZ. Terran doesnt even have a static D that attacks ground.
Planetary fortress.
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I literally hate this thread. i can honestly say if your opponent made the DT nest on some dark corner and you get sucker punched with it as you clearly didnt scout it...you lose, unless you play for that timing and happen to have detection up just in case which means you lose a lot of games that dont involve dts at all.
either way this is ridiculous...when you are fighting an army with dts mixed in you need to be able to HEAR them inside the noise of the fight and gtfo if you cant manage an overseer (which you should have a couple anyway they arent that expensive and even in master i dont run such a low mineral count in the mid game that i cant afford them)
as for the ones that get to be sneaky little bastards invisibly killing all my shits while i fight an army...one spore one spine each base and a control group of couple infestors and some upgraded(you should have been getting upgrades anyway) lings to slow down like max 5 dts and micro your overseer (see: get a couple overseers)...cheap to save the game when you know dts are out imho
oh if he got more than 5 deal with it and burrow infestors at his shit unless he spent the money to make cannons then you just throw ITs at the cannons and watch his money plummet on the replay for lulz.
there is no problem with zerg detection. dts need to be handled with preparation and scouting not noobing up my damn game
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On June 08 2011 22:56 Samuel Neptune wrote:
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
Ya. DTs are so overpowered vs. Zerg right now. That's why you always see them being used in that match up. /sarcasm.
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Gee what an imbalance, zergs have to build a spore and two spines to defend expansions against late-game DT harass while Protoss can defend their expansions with a single cannon each!
Except that stopping late-game zerg harass actually requires more like 8 cannons per expansion, and that's only to stall for the time needed to warp in defensive units or lumber an army back to defend, not to shut the harass down cold like a queen, two spines, and a spore do versus DT harass.
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I think people with low post counts/serious brain damage should stay away from threads that try to discuss things in a calm and mannered way.
People should also do some research before posting stuff that is flat wrong like saying terran ain't got static defense that attacks ground.
I think we all can agree on the fact that the overseer is overproced for what it actually does or can do (if not, give reasons why). Many of you think that giving overlords detection is overkill, because it would render DTs absolutely useless. Is that even true?
Imo it's not. In BW they were still a very viable option, but you can't really compare corsair/dt to pheonix/dt. I agree that overlord detection right from the get-to would render DTs useless in the early game, that's why I suggested the detection coming along with lair tech or overlord speed.
The longer the game goes the more spread out the Zerg will be meaning that he won't have an overlord everywhere, that also played a role in DT viability in bw late game.
Now in SC2 zerg is able to pump drones like crazy, which means losing drones in not that big of a deal meaning Zerg is a little better off against means of harassment. But injection is not the only new mechanic to look at when discussing DTs and its consequences, warpgates also play a huge role. Warp gates pretty much allow you to bypass huge areas, areas that could be chokes with detection for instance. DTs are a much more direct threat in SC2. But this is all more about defending bases against DTs, which can be awkward at times but is rather balanced.
My bigger concern is DTs in armies. As already stated overseers don't accelerate very quickly and they're armored, easy to see and take a long time to build (considering you're being attacked). Stalkers deal +dmg vs armored so they pretty much oneshot overseers everytime. Even if you got one close to his army chances are you might not even kill a single DT if he's fast to blink.
But we also gotta take a glimpse on another unit that allows for detection: the infestor. The infestor's detection abilities (FG duration) got tremendously nerfed in the last patch, it's only 4 instead of 8 seconds of detection now. Also, DTs are not really the target you wanna hit when your opponent got blink stalkers in masses. They still are good for emergency FGs though.
I think we can agree that detection was balanced in BW. Now my question is, did it change more in the favor of the Zerg or of the protoss that would affect the detection capabilites in SC2?
I think warp gate and injection pretty much equalize each other meaning overlords with detection still have a place in sc2.
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Speaking of Zerg detection, I just played a fucking crazy ZvZ where my opponent went fast pool and evo chamber, got a spore crawler to snipe my scouting overlord. The new patch means it burrows faster than an overlord can move.
Pretty crazy. I won though, but it's an interesting ZvZ cheese.
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On June 09 2011 01:22 emythrel wrote:
I love how a Zerg is complaining about detection when they arguable have the best detection in the game.....
1) Spore crawlers can be moved when needed, Cannons and Turrets can't.
2) Overseers have great scouting ultility and a shit tonne of HP's for a detection unit compared with a Raven (which costs 100/200 and takes away starport time) and a observer (that takes up robo time)
3) Overseers can be built from any of the 20 or so overlords Zerg will have late game
You can't have the ability to basically build detection from another unit, that doesn't cost you unit production time and is fairly cheap in reality, has far more HP than the T/P options and is Armored and have static detection THAT CAN MOVE and then complain about your detection being bad.... you can't have everything.
Hit the nail on the head right here.
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The hugest problem I face with detection is against Protoss and it involves hallucinations. It can be difficult to determine a suitable army composition when you need to have an Overseer close to the army to realise what is real and what isn't. But this comes down to proper handling of the overseer, not much else.
Maybe increase the detection range on Overseer, I dunno.
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On June 09 2011 01:31 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:29 Mr_Kyo wrote:
Spine+spore can handle lategame dt harass in PvZ. Terran doesnt even have a static D that attacks ground.
Planetary fortress.
Which as Idra famously pointed out is stronger than the zerg race :b
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On June 09 2011 01:31 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:29 Mr_Kyo wrote:
Spine+spore can handle lategame dt harass in PvZ. Terran doesnt even have a static D that attacks ground.
Planetary fortress.
Pretty obvious he means normal D like cannons/spines. Making a planetary is a gigantic loss. Making planetaries just for DTs means the P comes out WAY ahead.
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I have a couple questions.
First off, doesn't this thread belong in the b.net forums?
Secondly, spore crawlers got their root time reduced by half in the last patch, isn't that enough?
After all Z and T both get detection easier than Protoss, I don't really want to build a robo bay or rely on cannons for detection every game. I know you consider burrowed roaches "defensive" and don't think infestors are worth mentioning but c'mon, getting detection sucks, I'd rather just scout with DTs than observers after all.
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On June 09 2011 02:54 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:31 MoreFaSho wrote:On June 09 2011 01:29 Mr_Kyo wrote:
Spine+spore can handle lategame dt harass in PvZ. Terran doesnt even have a static D that attacks ground.
Planetary fortress. Which as Idra famously pointed out is stronger than the zerg race :b
come on, who hasn't faced a 200 kill planetary fortress before?
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Man, I hate having supply-free fast flying detectors with lots of hit points on a 17-second build time, particularly when they unlock for free and get bonus magic spells.
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On June 09 2011 02:29 decaf wrote:
I think people with low post counts/serious brain damage should stay away from threads that try to discuss things in a calm and mannered way.
People should also do some research before posting stuff that is flat wrong like saying terran ain't got static defense that attacks ground.
I think we all can agree on the fact that the overseer is overproced for what it actually does or can do (if not, give reasons why). Many of you think that giving overlords detection is overkill, because it would render DTs absolutely useless. Is that even true?
Imo it's not. In BW they were still a very viable option, but you can't really compare corsair/dt to pheonix/dt. I agree that overlord detection right from the get-to would render DTs useless in the early game, that's why I suggested the detection coming along with lair tech or overlord speed.
The longer the game goes the more spread out the Zerg will be meaning that he won't have an overlord everywhere, that also played a role in DT viability in bw late game.
Now in SC2 zerg is able to pump drones like crazy, which means losing drones in not that big of a deal meaning Zerg is a little better off against means of harassment. But injection is not the only new mechanic to look at when discussing DTs and its consequences, warpgates also play a huge role. Warp gates pretty much allow you to bypass huge areas, areas that could be chokes with detection for instance. DTs are a much more direct threat in SC2. But this is all more about defending bases against DTs, which can be awkward at times but is rather balanced.
My bigger concern is DTs in armies. As already stated overseers don't accelerate very quickly and they're armored, easy to see and take a long time to build (considering you're being attacked). Stalkers deal +dmg vs armored so they pretty much oneshot overseers everytime. Even if you got one close to his army chances are you might not even kill a single DT if he's fast to blink.
But we also gotta take a glimpse on another unit that allows for detection: the infestor. The infestor's detection abilities (FG duration) got tremendously nerfed in the last patch, it's only 4 instead of 8 seconds of detection now. Also, DTs are not really the target you wanna hit when your opponent got blink stalkers in masses. They still are good for emergency FGs though.
I think we can agree that detection was balanced in BW. Now my question is, did it change more in the favor of the Zerg or of the protoss that would affect the detection capabilites in SC2?
I think warp gate and injection pretty much equalize each other meaning overlords with detection still have a place in sc2.
You write essay long posts yet i see no worth in them at all. I very, very rarely see cloaked units winning games for any race in this game. When they do it's mostly cause people are not used to it and skimp on detection. You exaggerate and make a big deal out of something that's not.
Also blink into a zerg army just to snipe a overseer sounds like it's simple to do and isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to snipe the overseer at the start of a fight you need to blink at least 12 (+3 weapons) stalkers straight into a zerg ball to oneshot a overseer. You do this and every roach/hydra has range on these 12 stalkers and the stalkers die in seconds.
Why change something that works and needs no change. Idra lost cause he played horrible and the DT's in his base didn't do much damage and the DT harassing the army didn't turn the fight either.
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On June 08 2011 22:56 Samuel Neptune wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:19 brutality wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right? so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae and then there's the actual damage done by the dts the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
I'm speaking from actual experience, not making this up on the fly to sound right...Every time I use DTs late game and in my army comp the zerg will have spines and spores and each expansion and multiple overseers with his army. It's really not a big deal to make a few overseers to WIN THE GAME lol Still gonna use DTs though because they can win games against an unprepared zerg. You really want to talk about cost??? DT tech costs a buttload and DTs that just run up to an expansion and do no damage because of proper defense put the toss BEHIND O.o
Having zerglings separate from your army to deal with harass back at home is def not a big deal. Toss does it ALL THE TIME. we leave HT's/DTs at our expansions to deal with terran drops, and stalkers in our main...
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On June 09 2011 01:22 emythrel wrote:
I love how a Zerg is complaining about detection when they arguable have the best detection in the game.....
1) Spore crawlers can be moved when needed, Cannons and Turrets can't.
2) Overseers have great scouting ultility and a shit tonne of HP's for a detection unit compared with a Raven (which costs 100/200 and takes away starport time) and a observer (that takes up robo time)
3) Overseers can be built from any of the 20 or so overlords Zerg will have late game
You can't have the ability to basically build detection from another unit, that doesn't cost you unit production time and is fairly cheap in reality, has far more HP than the T/P options and is Armored and have static detection THAT CAN MOVE and then complain about your detection being bad.... you can't have everything.
Terrans have scans which are basically invulnerable detection for large area anywhere on the map, without costing any production time anywhere. It may cost a mule, but by midgame you should have multiple CCs and paying the extra ~270 minerals to kill DTs, roaches, observers, banshees, etc is a pretty good trade usually.
And overseers being armored is usually a bad thing, since it invites bonus damage from everybody
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EPT
