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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
BLASPHEMY Properly placed spore crawlers and a properly microd overseer with your army is all that Zerg needs for detection. 75 minerals for a baller anti-air detector structure that you can now reposition very quickly? Sign me up please. If DTs are getting proxied at your expansions or into your main repeatedly or are running scot-free across the map, you don't have the map control you should have playing Zerg. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
Personally I throw down 1 spine + 1 spore at every base at the 15:00 mark (that's 275min per base so about 1k-1.4k on 4-5 bases), completely blindly since there's no way of telling when dts will be researched in the late game. The observer is just so much better in every single way. There's a reason ovys had detection in bw. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
How does that make me hate my race? I'd also love to know why its assumed I will bank a ridiculous amount of money just because I'm a zerg player. Not all zergs play the same. And finally, 25 minutes plus late game its understandable to have 2 spores and 3 spines et cetera but at 15 minutes it is not optimal to have the required amount of defense to deter or defeat a large enough DT attack. When I play toss and I see a third with a spore and a spine you know what I do? I make more DTs and rush the spore. Then I kill the drones and get out. Edit: Spores are 125 not 75. Drones aren't free. | ||
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Fleebenworth
463 Posts
I have no clue why a small percentage of zerg players need to incessantly whine about things that aren't broken. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Swig
United States54 Posts
It would be great if the overseers' detection radius was increased. That way they stay further behind the zerg army, and the protoss would have to think twice before blinking into a bunch of roaches. | ||
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deadjawa
United States179 Posts
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
Be that as it may, I just want to say that detection is is something that's worthwhile to skimp on when possible, but can save many, many times its resource cost when you really do need it. In this way overseers are kind of great. You can pre-deploy overlords all over the map for no real cost and then fire up the nearest one in just 17 blizzard seconds when required. I find DT harass against good players only really works if you can distract them with a larger confrontation, which is the same way zergs should be using ling run-bys and terrans should be using drops. The fact that there is now a separate audio warning when you are taking drone damage means that a truly capable player should be able to notice the difference in all three. Of the three: DTs are the highest tech, most expensive and when they get shut down; they get shut down hard. (And for the love of fuck, there's no second 'c' in "cloaked". I swear that one is the second most common spelling mistake among ostensibly English-speaking starcraft players after "turrents") | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
On June 07 2011 09:24 Probe1 wrote: Okay, I'm confused. I don't hate my race. If I did I'd play a different one. I just thought it was appropriate to voice my complaints about its detection capabilities compared to other races and admittedly I used the reasons for detection in my argument and complaint. How does that make me hate my race? I'd also love to know why its assumed I will bank a ridiculous amount of money just because I'm a zerg player. Not all zergs play the same. And finally, 25 minutes plus late game its understandable to have 2 spores and 3 spines et cetera but at 15 minutes it is not optimal to have the required amount of defense to deter or defeat a large enough DT attack. When I play toss and I see a third with a spore and a spine you know what I do? I make more DTs and rush the spore. Then I kill the drones and get out. Edit: Spores are 125 not 75. Drones aren't free. LET ME HELP YOU.... this is what you said earlier... "Early/Mid Zergs detection holds up. Its not the best but it holds up. Late game... ......... Ugh. Now if you could upgrade overlords to regain their detection prowess from the first game [wrings hands menacingly]" Incoming zerg QQ "At what point do we collectively admit how unusual it is that Terran has the best scouting and the best scout prevention, Protoss has the best detector unit and excellent cloaked units and Zerg is left holding the bag in the rain? Its how I and others feel and I'm sorry (genuinely) if this comes across as a balance whine but I find it to be sincerely true. My race is hard." Yeh you certainly don't have a problem with your own race. This is just another zerg QQ thread, the game isn't suppose to be spoon fed to you. You have overlords everywhere, at 15 minutes you have lair tech/should have lair tech. Stop whining about the cost of things... Thats like saying oh you know how much mining time I lose by building stuff with scvs and 270 minerals to kill creep tumors with scans, its just silly to be so nit picky. People need to stop it with the Idra band wagon and just make due with what they got because obviously Nestea doesn't have a problem with dts hence GSL finals.. | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
The thing that MC did against Idra in g6? Only way you could deal with it is with DT support. HT's do far too little damage in the battle field especially against roaches =/ Edit: Also, infestors ... don't complain. In the battlefield, Infestor's ability to reveal DT's is INSANE. Protoss detection requires that you bring a unit with you all the time, but if you think about it, both Terran and Zerg have abilities to backup detection when you need it (scan/emp and fungal), and Toss doesn't. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
Remember when you thought HTs with the KA were totally fine and raged when the amulet was removed? You think it's fine just because it is that way, but it certainly isn't. I'm pretty sure if we got a test realm with overlords having detection with the speed upgrade you would figure that it's just fine. How often do you see an overlord at far out expansions? How is losing overlords in battles not quite a loss? The fact that an overlord with detection would still be easy to kill would be not as important because you got many of them to still be fine (well, you might be supply blocked, but you don't lose the freaking game instantly). I'm pretty sure we will see detection for overlords coming back. Sure, in sc2 we got injections to pump drones, but you're also able to warp in, which is really good. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
On June 07 2011 14:31 decaf wrote: DTs are just too strong. Remember when you thought HTs with the KA were totally fine and raged when the amulet was removed? You think it's fine just because it is that way, but it certainly isn't. I'm pretty sure if we got a test realm with overlords having detection with the speed upgrade you would figure that it's just fine. How often do you see an overlord at far out expansions? How is losing overlords in battles not quite a loss? The fact that an overlord with detection would still be easy to kill would be not as important because you got many of them to still be fine (well, you might be supply blocked, but you don't lose the freaking game instantly). I'm pretty sure we will see detection for overlords coming back. Sure, in sc2 we got injections to pump drones, but you're also able to warp in, which is really good. When your going to give a buff for a unit you got to look at the big picture and how this will effect other matchups. Giving overlords complete detection will mess up late game TvZ where ghost intentionally cloak to walk under broodlords to snipe them.. Ghost are becoming more and more popular in TvZ and plz don't botch it before it even begins becoming standard. It happens so much. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44271 Posts
Just learn to make two overseers if you're going to move out against dts. Or don't leave them in the front of your army so they don't get sniped. Terran has the same problem with slow ravens, and Protoss has slow observers (as soon as they get seen they get sniped- they're the weakest of the three detectors). | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
firstly you have to remember that Zerg unlike other races can make all drones or all units or a mix of the two depending on the build orders chosen so if your not bare minimum 16 drones ahead by the 4th hatch your larvae decisions are wrong. That's just bullshit... If Im 16drones ahead in a PvZ and not seriously behind on something (tech, army) my opponent just sucks. (meaning he didn't put pressure on me, neither expanded fast enough himself, nor chronoboosted enough probes) And even if I could be 16drones ahead at this point, building the required defenses vs DTs would cost me at least 8drones+something like 700-1000minerals (16crawler is too many...) which leads me to the question: Why on earth should I even prepare for dts, as I would do more damage to myself as the dts would do! Seriously, if you lose like 20drones lategame to dts, you were either outplayed or you simply suck; And if a protoss doesn't just turn around with his dt's and turns them into archons, which are pretty costefficient now, or builds enough dt's to kill the spores, he sucks. On June 07 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: I agree. Most of the time when you get overseers, especially mid-late game, it's for detection. The high cost is due to the 2 spells it gets when all you really want is detection. Even blizzard said they were gonna change overseer in HotS but that's a long way out. It's pretty much this what bugs me. Overseer or Overlorddetection, I don't care! But getting hit by dt's and thereby forced to invest tons of gas (which is usually the limiting ressource in ZvP) in a unit that is pretty much useless, besides its detection ability, is just annoying. (not imbalanced, but I don't think that overlord detection would be imbalanced either) | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44271 Posts
On June 07 2011 14:31 decaf wrote: DTs are just too strong. Remember when you thought HTs with the KA were totally fine and raged when the amulet was removed? You think it's fine just because it is that way, but it certainly isn't. I'm pretty sure if we got a test realm with overlords having detection with the speed upgrade you would figure that it's just fine. How often do you see an overlord at far out expansions? How is losing overlords in battles not quite a loss? The fact that an overlord with detection would still be easy to kill would be not as important because you got many of them to still be fine (well, you might be supply blocked, but you don't lose the freaking game instantly). I'm pretty sure we will see detection for overlords coming back. Sure, in sc2 we got injections to pump drones, but you're also able to warp in, which is really good. ...Whaaaaat? 1. Dark templars are certainly not *too strong*. You can stop them quite easily. And once you get detection up at your bases (which costs only a few minerals), they're absolutely useless. They have no other functionality once the element of surprise is gone. Sure, they're decent melee units, but they can't cast spells, have no range, and it's very rare to make archons out of them unless you're floating resources. 2. High templars are used a lot less, now that KA is gone. A lot less. Removing KA was a huge mistake if Blizzard wanted Protoss to use fewer colossi. 3. If Protoss players are going to commit to dark templar tech and dark templar (which is a heck of a lot more resources than your defense is, so stop QQing), than be prepared to make an overseer or two. Learn to react to your opponent's builds, like everyone else does. And learn to not get your key units sniped. Protoss does it with colossi. Terran does it with tanks. Zergs can learn to do it with overseers. | ||
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JaqMs
United States73 Posts
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On June 07 2011 06:40 Voltaire wrote: Scans cost 300 minerals, more than a spine and a spore. Do people still make this stupid comparison? I guess each creep tumor cost 1200mins and 800gas because those 4 larvaes that would have spawned could each have been Ultralisks. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
First, if you are going to say overseers cost 150/100 (overlord 100, overseer upgrade 50/100) then you have to say cannons cost 250 (100 for pylon, 150 for cannon). Second, overseers are great because you can build them anywhere on the map instantly with existing overlords. So if you have an overlord or two at each base, you will never lose your base to dark templars unless he brings 4+ dark templars at once. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
Like why take out something that worked perfectly fine, and throw in a shitty unit, this reminds me of the colo, reaver arguments. Just something to change it, but it went for the worse imo, just my opinion. | ||
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