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On April 26 2011 21:09 norterrible wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 21:06 Goliathsorrow wrote:On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote:
While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better? And I don't like this mindset of thinking that every discussion must be dismissed with a "learn to play". Seriously if you are not interested in the discussion or just flat out refuse it... don't read it, don't post in it... noone is forcing you to come here and spread hate. No one is forcing you to respond to my post either, yet you decide to let me know how much you don't like it. He asked what we thought, I told him. Not a very useful discussion if only the people that like the idea respond. And what if we had a thread like this for every single aspect of the game? At what point is it time to just learn to get better?
u didnt even put a real reason other than dont change the game. u even said overseers sucked. so why dont we not change the game when roaches were 1 food and 2 armor and everyone who complains jus needs to learn to play better? why dont we give overlords detection and anyone who complains jus needs to learn to play better
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I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
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Yeah, overseers are boring. No, they aren't too weak to deal with detection vs protoss.
Burrow (especially with roaches) is much more common and dangerous than DTs, and so protoss generally needs to get detection more than zerg.
The reason detection takes so long to come up in response to cloaked units is to give the cloaked units a chance to do damage, if they manage to get into a base without being scouted, either by seeing tech or by seeing the blur. DTs are a huge investment, in time and resources, and that investment can generally be exploited by good zerg players.
I don't think anybody thinks DTs are overpowered. Annoying, sure. But any increase to zerg detection will by necessity decrease DT capability.
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I don't really see any problem with the detection, but I feel like for what it does the overseer should cost less. It costs more than an observer and yet it's visible, has bad acceleration, and is very vulnerable to snipes. I've had games where i've spent 500 gas on making overseers just because of phoenixes and void rays. Sure observers take up robo time, but that's not really an issue (I feel) because once you have an observer it hardly ever gets sniped because you have to have detection to snipe it and overseers always get picked off before observers. It's not really that much of an issue though because the only time dt harasses every do extreme amounts of damage to me are when the toss rushes dts. Otherwise at any other point in the game he may get 4 -6 drones, but in about a minute i'm DT proof due to spore and 2 spines at each expo. Then for dts mixed in the army I agree that it's a problem, but it's the least of all problems in zvp at this point.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Make overseer available from overlords before lair and after Evolution Chamber for 50/75 cost, or 25/100, or other cost.
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Pretty sure DTs don't have blink (even late game) and Overseers do not have a speed upgrade (only overlords do - it does not affect overseers).
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On June 08 2011 07:16 willoc wrote:
Pretty sure DTs don't have blink (even late game) and Overseers do not have a speed upgrade (only overlords do - it does not affect overseers).
wrong, pneumatized carapace raises overseer speed from 1.88 to 2.75
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On June 08 2011 05:19 brutality wrote:
I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
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I kind of share your frustration here. I see quite a few zergs (myself included) lose otherwise won games because they get caught a little off guard by dts at some point on 3/4 bases.
Actually the most annoying issue I have is that I feel like I have to get lair to take a 3rd against dt openings on many maps (not all) because it's hard to get creep to my 3rd in time to get a spore up without an overseer.
Overall I don't think dts are as good as you're giving them credit for. It's not like in a huge battle them having 4 undetected DTs for a 20 seconds is going to end the game. You should keep OVERLORDS with your army lategame in addition to an overseer or two. If they try to blink to snipe the overseer, you just quickly make a new one and if you're controlling your units right they will take quite a bit of damage.
I do think overseers are kind of ridiculously expensive, but templar tech is a pretty big investment on its own. I think overall I'm so happy to see templar tech vs more robo units that I don't care. Robo units really are better in every way, but I just dislike the fact that dts don't require any preparation in SC2 like they do in BW to do damage.
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I didn't follow that much BW, can someone explain how DTs and detection in general used to be see in ZvP with overlord still having baseline detector ? Did DTs even work in this match-up ?
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I agree. Late game the toss can warp in 5 dt's one to each base, and there is literally NO WAY of scouting that, because late game the building can be anywhere on the map. The zerg would have to respond by AT LEAST throwing down 1 spore and 1 spine, and if the toss chooses to attack with more than one dt per base, then you need upwards of 2 spores and spines. Sure, zerg gets extra minerals, but sacrificing let's say 4 drones and 400 minerals per expansion is an incredibly high cost when the toss just needs to make 1 building and 1 warp-in round. If you don't realize what is going on until it's too late, you will lose the game, because all your drones, or all your important tech can be sniped in a matter of seconds. I think that overseer should be removed, and instead there should be an upgrade that turns all ovies into detectors, like in BW. This way, the strength of early game cloaked unit cheese is still effective against zerg, and a lack of overseer is already compensated by the relatively quick build and rooting time of spore. The effectiveness of cloaked units should decease as the game goes on, like how burrowed units are useless against protoss. A maxed zerg will have I believe 24 overlords, and even that many won't be able to cover every inch of the map, since zerg needs overlords to scout along air routes, and around the edges of bases. Thus, cloaked units could still work, but wouldn't cause the zerg to scramble around looking for scattered overlords around the map to morph into expensive overseers and pray that their base isn't decimated.
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Zerg's have a high economy late game (which is when DT harass is most viable), I don't see the problem with setting up static defense for a little bit more money as Zerg.
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i agree with the topic.
but the solution would need a nerf to zergs as well.
i think it would break DTs if overlords get detection at any point of the game.
it broke DT vs zerg in BW as well (imo)
so would i would like to see is: trading overseer ability to block buildings for a better acceleration and lower cost. you could remove changeling as well and instead give the overseer phoenix speed.
so it is hard to hunt down. its costs are explained by its fast detection movement. it cant shoot and would still cost more than observers.
maybe this is not the best solution, but i would disagree to just give overseers high acceleration.
if it comes down to detection i think protoss is favored a little bit over terrans, because terrans often scan after something already happened. also scan costs minerals all the time. and cannons are way more usefull than turrets, although they need pylons
zergs are way behind terran detection. ravens are the counterpart to overseers (energy based flying unit awesome for harrassment) but they are way stronger.
another thing is, that it is tough to kill observers, since your t1 units use ground attacks. so would probably need hydra+overseer combinations. while toss can kill your detection with t1 stalkers alone.
i would trade sporecrawlers over turrets everytime. sporecrawlers are just to weak vs air and cost drones.
this issue already is pretty good balanced in a way where every race shows totally different advantages and disadvantages. i find it also hard to discuss due to the complexity of detection distribution through races.
but yes, imo its hard to deal with dts+blinkstalker combinations for zergs, or dt harrassment as well. (makes your expansions so much more expensive if you throw down static defenses
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On April 26 2011 21:03 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote:
While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better? I dont want the DT to be nerfed in any way. I just think that the overall concept of the Overseer is bad and that there's a better solution.
Stop finding solutions to hypothetical problems that aren't common in the first place. If you have problem with overseers getting sniped, then make more of them. and ensure that they are positioned well in your army.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote:As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF.
I can almost certainly assure you that in the early game, terran will not be using planetary fortresses to stop DT harass, due to the reduced mule count and the fact that planetary fortresses have pretty poor range-- they will not adequately defend vespene geysers, production facilities, addons and supply depots in the base.
Also, although spore crawlers can't detect while uprooted, it's worth noting that missile turrets can't uproot at all.
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On June 08 2011 23:21 Noocta wrote:
I didn't follow that much BW, can someone explain how DTs and detection in general used to be see in ZvP with overlord still having baseline detector ? Did DTs even work in this match-up ?
They didn't really work until Bisu debuted the corsair/DT build which relied on overlord harass into a dt switch. The thing is that you unlocked the tech for DTs as an instant bonus from building a templar archives, and you were always going to get HT PvZ. It would probably have been a little different if you were spending 250 gas and waiting 100 seconds just for DTs.
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you missed one way of dealing with cloak
you looked at all zerg units, saw only "detector" attribute, and went on from there
another attribute u should have looked at is "splash damage"
you can cast FG on the DT when u see the blur to reveal him.
1 burrowed infestor per eaach base is a reasonable defense, since they defend vs phoenix, void rays, etc.
also having burrowed baneling explode near a blur will dmg the DT
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On June 09 2011 00:12 MindRush wrote:
you missed one way of dealing with cloak
you looked at all zerg units, saw only "detector" attribute, and went on from there
another attribute u should have looked at is "splash damage"
you can cast FG on the DT when u see the blur to reveal him.
1 burrowed infestor per eaach base is a reasonable defense, since they defend vs phoenix, void rays, etc.
also having burrowed baneling explode near a blur will dmg the DT
you cant trade baneling explode to detect and kill dts.
therefor you need baneling tech, burrow tech, banelings on each mineralline
and you need to make sure that no observer ever scouts your expansions, because otherwise your opponent would never send dts within the mineral line, but harras otherwise with them and your investment would be wasted
the other point you mentioned:
1 infestor per base cant stop a dt or phoenix harrass.
infact you could delay the harrass for 4-5 seconds depending on your actions.
vs phoenix you get 4 sec funghal and lose the infestor afterwards
vs dt you could throw fungal and infested marines before.
but still you would need 4-5 infested marines to kill the dt within those 4 sec fungal.
meaning you need to throw them out first.
and if your opponent sees you throw out infested,he just runs away, because he/she expects you to have the opportunity to kill the dt with this act.
also you would need nearly full energy on each infestor.
imo you need 3 infestors to defend any kind of harrass effectivly without only delaying it.
but this would make it awefull expensive as well.
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edit:
you may could work with baneling explode, but you would need the speedupgrade on them as well. so you can attack them if they wont walk into a baneling-mine
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Blink+DT's will likely be a more often used strat in the Protoss-Arsenal, because it's incredibly strong and other Protoss-Lategame-Builds get figured out better.
Also, I think the Overseer is too weak anyways. It should be faster and cost less gas OR be available on T1, which would make scouting for Zerg easier and make DT/Banshee-rushes less of a threat.
If Protoss start using more Blink+DT's, I think pretty much every Zerg will play Baneling+Infestor, cuz both of them can kill DT's without Overseers, which is pretty much the thing you'll have to do cuz you'd need way too many Overseers for them not to get sniped immediately.
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EPT
