[D] Zerg Detection - Page 14

On June 09 2011 03:30 DuneBug wrote:
overseers cost too much gas but its important for terran and zerg to have detection in any fight vs protoss. DT's are one issue but also the viability of hallucinations in large battles.

Terran can just scan, which is annoying... if zerg wants to be safe they need to morph 3-4 overseers. That kind of bothers me just because of the gas cost.

On June 09 2011 03:36 brutality wrote:


DTs 125 gas each
Dark Shrine 250 gas
Twilight council 100 gas
Hallucination 100 gas
sentry 100 gas each (hallucination costs 100/200 energy)

lair 100 gas
overseer 100 gas

On June 09 2011 03:37 Mailing wrote:


As protoss get better, zerg will need to make a lot of overseers or 5 DT will wreck their army if the overseer gets sniped/

On June 09 2011 03:37 Mailing wrote:


As protoss get better, zerg will need to make a lot of overseers or 5 DT will wreck their army if the overseer gets sniped/

On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote:
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units
and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep

The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable.
The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).

Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.

The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad.
At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors.
Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild:
Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)

The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.

Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.

Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.

I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.

What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed?
That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.

edit:
Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more:
Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units.
This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked.
Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.

Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed).
Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.

On June 09 2011 03:16 karpo wrote:


You write essay long posts yet i see no worth in them at all. I very, very rarely see cloaked units winning games for any race in this game. When they do it's mostly cause people are not used to it and skimp on detection. You exaggerate and make a big deal out of something that's not.

Also blink into a zerg army just to snipe a overseer sounds like it's simple to do and isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to snipe the overseer at the start of a fight you need to blink at least 12 (+3 weapons) stalkers straight into a zerg ball to oneshot a overseer. You do this and every roach/hydra has range on these 12 stalkers and the stalkers die in seconds.

Why change something that works and needs no change. Idra lost cause he played horrible and the DT's in his base didn't do much damage and the DT harassing the army didn't turn the fight either.

On June 09 2011 03:59 DuneBug wrote:


doing the cost analysis is an interesting observation that everyone already knew. Thanks for that.

Guess what sentries and DT's do in battle, yes they actually help your army. Overseers have no combat ability besides detection. Furthermore I am not saying there's any imbalance between P/Z so I don't know why you're bringing up a cost discussion.

And finally, one overseer against blink stalkers is obviously going to get sniped. Most zergs that have gone up against that build know that you need to have 3-4 overseers to counter it, because you simply Can't let your army get hit by DT's without hitting them back. Nor can you waste valuable damage on hallucinated colossus/immortals/voids.

Bottom line is if you're going to do a cost analysis you need to do it for at least 4 overseers. From both sides of the coin that seems like the magic number where protoss says "i cant snipe that many detectors" and zerg says "if he tries to snipe these i'm sure i'll be able to save at least one of them."

Edit: and yes, it's great if they blink into you, but it's worth sacrificing 10 stalkers to have dt's do uncontested damage for the next 30 seconds while an OS morphs. If you disagree I feel like you haven't played against DT/blink as zerg.

On June 09 2011 04:33 blubbdavid wrote:


Cloaked units take the game? Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_AkKp1dSWA

Yes, all the overlords provide detection.

AND FUCK YEAH, THE SOUND OF THIS VIDEO IS FINALLY BACK!

On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote:
Hello!

I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ.
This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.

First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got:
Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone)
Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable
Infestor Fungal Growth

In comparision the Protoss detectors:
Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150
Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable

What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units
and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep

The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable.
The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).

Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.

The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad.
At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors.
Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild:
Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)

The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.

Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.

Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.

I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.

What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed?
That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.

edit:
Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more:
Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units.
This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked.
Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.

Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed).
Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.

On June 09 2011 04:42 Mr. Enchilada wrote:

Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow.
BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least)
This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.

On June 09 2011 04:42 Mr. Enchilada wrote:

Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow.
BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least)
This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.

On June 09 2011 04:42 Mr. Enchilada wrote:

Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow.
BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least)
This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.

On June 09 2011 04:42 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow.
BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least)
This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.

On June 09 2011 03:24 Arkan wrote:
I think they should reduce overseer cost and morph time, this is a trivial buff that would actually help zergs a lot but wouldnt be a game changing buff.

DT's as it stands, especially with the bigger maps are an extreme pain to deal with. Im particularily refering to their mid-late game use of denying expansions. Having to pull parts of your army to deal with it and invest in a bunch of tech to repel further harass really exceeds the amount invested in 1-2 DT's.

Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow.