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[D] Zerg Detection - Page 22

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 20 21 22 23 24 28 Next All
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
October 22 2011 13:52 GMT
#421
On October 22 2011 22:46 hns wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 20:07 decaf wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 22 2011 19:57 emc wrote:
I'd like to note the HotS changes, regarding scouting.

Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about.

However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part.

I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection.

about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base.

spot on
I think blizz has to split this unit up. It simply cannot be a powerful spellcaster and detector at the same time. It just doesn't work.


Ever heard of a thing called Science Vessel?


Science Vessel and Raven are fine because terrans have scan. The thing is, SV and Raven are somewhat late tech, so that justify their power. Problem is that the race need a detector soon than that. Scan does that, spore crawler not so much. If the protoss go DT -> expand, won't we be unable to attack and expand more because we will die in the middleway? We need an unit with detection, something that moves. Can Viper be this early and this powerfull?
CubY
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany93 Posts
October 22 2011 13:54 GMT
#422
they said it comes out of infestation pit
http://www.verticalsense.de/ //// I love e -Sports <3
Striding Strider
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom787 Posts
October 22 2011 14:00 GMT
#423
On October 22 2011 22:12 Sh1FTy_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 19:18 justinpal wrote:
Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection...


Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ.


Blizzard hire this man.
I have a beard. I'm unprofessional.
kef
Profile Joined September 2010
283 Posts
October 22 2011 14:01 GMT
#424
If a unit with ocular parasite burrows, does it still offer detection? I feel like that could be useful
There are two kinds of people in this world: people who say there are two kinds of people in the world and people who know the first group of people are full of shit.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
October 22 2011 14:01 GMT
#425
On October 22 2011 22:12 Sh1FTy_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 19:18 justinpal wrote:
Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection...


Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ.

overlord in bw came with detection
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
throttled
Profile Joined August 2010
United States382 Posts
October 22 2011 14:06 GMT
#426
On October 22 2011 22:54 CubY wrote:
they said it comes out of infestation pit


They said Swarm Host does, not Viper. They said Viper is lair tech. The cost could be the only problem, not being late tech. I doubt it will be much though, the pull ability costs 100 energy, and the new "dark swarm" isn't actually dark swarm, it's disruption web. The other abilities will not be overpowered, just useful in support. I guarantee you won't see some "mass viper" build. Just decent support units and a good idea for detection IMO, that's all.
"Look to the river rushing. Unparalleled in its power. It carves away at the land, eroding the banks, consuming the sands and washes away to her majesty."
KDot2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1213 Posts
October 22 2011 14:11 GMT
#427
Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....

no reason not to keep the overseer too
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
October 22 2011 14:16 GMT
#428
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote:
Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....

no reason not to keep the overseer too

it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Herr Wilhelm
Profile Joined July 2011
Chile170 Posts
October 22 2011 14:25 GMT
#429
I really think taking out the overseer is a good choice, it wasn't even used.
Almost every zerg got spores for detection/AA defense, so overseers where rarely seen.
Now if you want to have a mobile detector, get the viper, it's on lair tech too.
its basically the same, you just need to have an infestation pit (Im not sure) so by the time you had an overseer, you can get a little bit later the viper, which gives ANY unit your so much wanted detection.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Aetherial
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia917 Posts
October 22 2011 14:41 GMT
#430
The concern I have is in regards to early cloaked banshee and DT rushes. HotS has the same issue as WoL, no scout = lose if you don't have an evolution chamber as Zerg.
SoKHo
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)1081 Posts
October 22 2011 14:43 GMT
#431
Meh, every other race has to climb the tech tree to acquire mobile detection. I don't think it'll be a big deal at all
"If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words"|| Big Nal_rA fan boy!! Nal_rA, Bisu, Huk, MC, Hero fighting! SKT1---->
KDot2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1213 Posts
October 22 2011 14:44 GMT
#432
On October 22 2011 23:16 ETisME wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote:
Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....

no reason not to keep the overseer too

it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)


I was never pro remove overseer .....and I doubt anyone with much sense wanted it removed
MageWarden
Profile Joined April 2011
United States95 Posts
October 22 2011 14:49 GMT
#433
i think the viper will be fine. u get one and u can infinite dectection. U can make overlords, a queen, another viper?!(OMG) a detector. I especially dont mind because it doesnt require another structure tech in order to produce the viper.
GG WP NO RE
Lonyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United Kingdom3884 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 14:55:51
October 22 2011 14:53 GMT
#434
On October 22 2011 23:25 Herr Wilhelm wrote:
I really think taking out the overseer is a good choice, it wasn't even used.
Almost every zerg got spores for detection/AA defense, so overseers where rarely seen.
Now if you want to have a mobile detector, get the viper, it's on lair tech too.
its basically the same, you just need to have an infestation pit (Im not sure) so by the time you had an overseer, you can get a little bit later the viper, which gives ANY unit your so much wanted detection.

It's on a completely different route of lair tech and FORCES an early infestation pit.
That's bad game design.

Now you need: overlord speed (100/100), infestation pit (100/100) and a Viper (???/???) AND then you also need to WAIT for both the infestation pit and viper to be made, and THEN you can make a detector, meaning your detection will be even slower than currently, AND more expensive, and it will take longer to get a scout on the enemy base as well with an overlord, since you need to wait for speed to research.

Removing the overseer and 'replacing' it with this joke unit completely screws up both zerg detection AND ALSO zerg scouting, making them spend more gas WITHOUT CHOICE vs just getting an overseer or two.


There are serious timing issues which arise from this change more than just zerg having a different detector. The overseer may not have been "interesting", but it was more than just a detector, and it had a completely different timing to anything which requires a structure.
The way the Viper could have worked would be if it was built from a hatchery (like a queen), required lair tech, the spellcaster upgrades required something else (e.g. infestation pit) AND it spawned with enough energy/whatever to make a detector unit right away.
Oh AND it only takes 1 or max 2 food.
HOLY CHECK!
MrSexington
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1768 Posts
October 22 2011 14:55 GMT
#435
They need to give spore crawlers a slightly faster movement speed and unburrowed detection.

>_<
Lonyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United Kingdom3884 Posts
October 22 2011 14:57 GMT
#436
On October 22 2011 23:55 MrSexington wrote:
They need to give spore crawlers a slightly faster movement speed and unburrowed detection.

>_<

2 port banshee, focus down spores, rape the zerg who can't make an overseer for detection by making sure the infestation pit can't complete.
HOLY CHECK!
IMABUNNEH
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1062 Posts
October 22 2011 14:57 GMT
#437
I'm confused. Before we had to get to lair, and then spend some money morphing our Overlords.

Now we have to get to lair tech, and then build a unit (possibly building a pre-req building first...), AND then cast the detection on a friendly unit.

Because unscouted cloaked stuff hitting before/at lair tech wasn't strong enough vs Zerg?

Looks like Evo Chamber + 1 Spore will have to work its way into (my) standard build.
"I think...now? No rival. Me world champion. Yeah. None rival." - oGsMC
MrSexington
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1768 Posts
October 22 2011 14:59 GMT
#438
On October 22 2011 23:57 Lonyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 23:55 MrSexington wrote:
They need to give spore crawlers a slightly faster movement speed and unburrowed detection.

>_<

2 port banshee, focus down spores, rape the zerg who can't make an overseer for detection by making sure the infestation pit can't complete.


Damnit.

They need to give queens detection.

>_<
MikeT
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada35 Posts
October 22 2011 15:04 GMT
#439
Nothing I've seen in the Blizzard presentations says that the Viper requires Infestation Pit. My understanding is that it requires only a Lair from going through Teamliquid's reports on BlizzConn and watching the panel discussion on YouTube. The Swarm Host requires Infestation pit as I understand it. The concern they were expressing was they didn't want to make the Viper too powerful as it had to be reasonably accessible for detection purposes.

I really like the Viper. It looks far more Zergish to me, like a giant hydralisk / wasp mixture. The Overseer I always thought was a bit of a joke.
Huntz
Profile Joined July 2011
164 Posts
October 22 2011 15:05 GMT
#440
It's on a completely different route of lair tech and FORCES an early infestation pit.
That's bad game design.


I agree... observer needs to be available at nexus after twilight/robo or stargate IMO.
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