On April 22 2011 21:07 pandaminion wrote: e-Sports aren't meant to be "fun," they're meant to be played competitively.
God I really hate this game but I just have to play it because if I play this game (which I hate because it is not fun) enough then I might get good enough to make money off (doing something I hate)
Of course it's meant to be fun. Every competetive sport out there has elements in it that a person participating in enjoys. If they didn't they wouldn't do it.
L O L .... sry of my ENG... first SC1 BW is fun bacous is hard to play and there is plenty off things to use and to do in game.... ( in my opinion sc1 have plenty of minygames in side of one game)
if you insert rucket puks intu basket ball basket ball will be become whery boring after few games..man lol.... first thing basket ball will lose strategy positioning timing everything game will be joke...and that is what Dustin do with this game...insted river drops (skill positioning timing) he insert colloss who do all that in A MOVE.....(nitro packs in basketball)
sc2 is only interesting now bacous off old glory from bw....(and old unites)....
baskett ball with nitro packs= circus (with no brain in it)
sport is one thing (skill timing,strategy,positioning , hard to pull out,mass brain usage)
and circus is other thing (baskett ball with nitro packs (hahah) its fun to whatch 1 or 2 times but lol)
On April 22 2011 23:28 Gfire wrote: A lot of these "fun" things in other games involve pushing units around, something I'm glad Blizzard said they were going to avoid with Starcraft II. It's a shame they went back on that and added force fields. I might complain about mothership vortex, but I think with the resent patch it's okay.
At any rate, I can certainly relate to Dustin Browder. I have a fair amount of experience with the BFME series (which apparently he worked on, don't know for sure,) and I modded it for a long time. I would constantly rework my ideas of what makes a good game and start my mod over from scratch. I started as a kid who wanted a "fun" game, and to add things into the original. The rest of the modding community for that game was pretty much the same way, whether it's adding dozens of new units and heroes, or making the game "realistic" (as in, buildings are nearly invulnerable to all but siege weapons and everything takes multiple minutes to produce.) Over time I got more into esports and starcraft, and my modding reflected that. In the end the engine just wasn't good enough for me. It probably took me about a year and a half to figure it out.
IMO, BFME was a pretty fun game with quite a few neat ideas that made it a very unique RTS. I had a blast playing that game, and I also enjoyed quite a few mods that were floating around for it (Deezire had a good mod; Elven Alliance was pretty awesome; the no pop-cap mods were also a blast). Although people do complain about its fundamental design (limited base-building and resource-collecting), I still found it to be a very fun, cinematic experience.
Although Dustin is great at making games, the fact that SC2 is trying to become more than a game to become an e-sport hinders the creativity of any game designer. I think a lot of the more broken elements in SC2 came from earlier in development when he and his team didn't have a clear vision of a proper e-sport. Now that the game is out in the wild, at least they can keep their fingers on the community's pulse to get a better idea of how to improve the game in the expansions.
I actually think this is quite a good thing he's said. The more "fun" units which are rather gimmicky were just used in Campaign, which I really do love. I love some of the WoL campaign units like the Diamondback, Hercules, Odin and a few others. They're not fit to be part of the actual multiplayer side as they're horribly imbalanced, but they're fun units and getting to use them in the campaign is really cool. :D
On April 23 2011 00:05 thebole1 wrote: L O L .... sry of my ENG... first SC1 BW is fun bacous is hard to play and there is plenty off things to use and to do in game.... ( in my opinion sc1 have plenty of minygames in side of one game)
if you insert rucket puks intu basket ball basket ball will be become whery boring after few games..man lol.... first thing basket ball will lose strategy positioning timing everything game will be joke...and that is what Dustin do with this game...insted river drops (skill positioning timing) he insert colloss who do all that in A MOVE.....(nitro packs in basketball)
sc2 is only interesting now bacous off old glory from bw....(and old unites)....
baskett ball with nitro packs= circus (with no brain in it)
sport is one thing (skill timing,strategy,positioning , hard to pull out,mass brain usage)
and circus is other thing (baskett ball with nitro packs (hahah) its fun to whatch 1 or 2 times but lol)
Wow, this is a terrific post. I could understand the gist perfectly and agree 100%.
fun unites are for campaing...(i also think reper should be replaced with some other unites(or abylitis like spider mins or something..)
to make this game beather they should insert copetativ abylitis and unites that will work in battle...(no fun unites) also unites that require skill to play not only A muve unites....
so blizzard dustin.... listen to ppl like idra or something... made game sport (and that meens also fun) and dont made joke of this epic game...
On April 22 2011 21:07 pandaminion wrote: e-Sports aren't meant to be "fun," they're meant to be played competitively.
God I really hate this game but I just have to play it because if I play this game (which I hate because it is not fun) enough then I might get good enough to make money off (doing something I hate)
Of course it's meant to be fun. Every competetive sport out there has elements in it that a person participating in enjoys. If they didn't they wouldn't do it.
The root of fun in most games is in competition, its fun to win, its fun to improve. Other kinds of fun are usually short lived in my experience.
On April 22 2011 20:22 surraymb wrote: So Dustin Browder finally admits he has a problem figuring out what the starcraft community wants? Big surprise there...
Thank god for those other people telling him 'no'. Should be more of those around him telling him 'no' to everything he proposes.
the issue is actually that the starcraft community doesnt know what it wants.
is this why every new unit in SC2 was a CNC3 or RA3 unit....
Viking- ability to transform into air or ground mode, walking mech. mecha tengu- ability to transform into air or ground mode, walking mech.
stalker - strong against armor, shoots missles, can attack air and ground, ability blink on a cooldown. Shock trooper- strong against armor, shoots missles, can attack air and ground, ability blink on a cooldown.
hellion- strong anti light, fast. has upgrade to make anti light better. attack buggy -strong anti light, fast. has upgrade to make anti light better.
colossus- walking towering mech, weak against air, does aoe with pew pew lasers. tripod- walking towering mech, weak against air, does aoe with pew pew lasers.
the mothership used to be similar way back in SC2 alpha, ie same abilities similar effect. but was changed alot in SC2 from the cnc3 one atleast.
the list goes on, which is basically every new unit in SC2 that wasnt in SC1, and the units even look similar, ive been trying to photoshop them all together and make a post in the funny picture thread about it, but my photoshop skills are terrible.
now for those of you that dont understand the irony to my post in regards to the interview, Why didnt anyone tell him no to all his cnc unit clones? you know the A move colossus.... It just makes me wonder what they actually told him no to... alot of what im referring to is the final paragraph of that interview when hes talking about unit design and making "Cool" units.
Isn't fun what made BW successful? They should have gone the SC1 route and made fun, over the top abilities first before balancing them. Reavers and mines are the two that come to mind. Mines blowing up unsuspecting units or a well performed mine daebak are fun.
On April 22 2011 23:57 Rabiator wrote: Doesnt Browder admit that he is not qualified for his job by admitting this?
No.... He is just saying that designing a game as an e-sport is much more difficult as designing it as a game. That fun crazy elements that for a normal game might be Ok on a game designed as an e sport might not be good, thus it was hard for him.
I'll give you an example in another popular series. The Modern Warfare series have a lot of "fun"(and lets not pretend that the concept of fun its not something entirely subjective in many aspects) stuff like Killstreak rewards that might be incredibly fun for the player, but that stuff its not good when you think of it as a serious e sport.Hmmm, maybe I should have mentioned Super Smash Brothers and items, almost the same case.
I don't think many people appreciate the difficulties in what Blizzard is trying to do. Its something that its kinda new and kinda cool(IMO), instead of designing SC2 as a competitive game they are designing it as an e sport that is something that has not been done before.
Will this hurt the game? I honestly don't know, honestly I think only time will tell. But I think that SC2 is fun for me as both a player and a spectator. Can they do better? Yeah of course. I just don't think that all the armchair game design that many people are doing when judging this game is fair, nor taking into account what blizzard is trying to do.
tl;dr: The whole article is DB just telling about the challenges of designing the game as an e sport instead of just being a game.
On April 23 2011 00:47 KiF1rE wrote: is this why every new unit in SC2 was a CNC3 or RA3 unit....
Viking- ability to transform into air or ground mode, walking mech. mecha tengu- ability to transform into air or ground mode, walking mech.
stalker - strong against armor, shoots missles, can attack air and ground, ability blink on a cooldown. Shock trooper- strong against armor, shoots missles, can attack air and ground, ability blink on a cooldown.
hellion- strong anti light, fast. has upgrade to make anti light better. attack buggy -strong anti light, fast. has upgrade to make anti light better.
colossus- walking towering mech, weak against air, does aoe with pew pew lasers. tripod- walking towering mech, weak against air, does aoe with pew pew lasers.
the mothership used to be similar way back in SC2 alpha, ie same abilities similar effect. but was changed alot in SC2 from the cnc3 one atleast.
the list goes on, which is basically every new unit in SC2 that wasnt in SC1, and the units even look similar, ive been trying to photoshop them all together and make a post in the funny picture thread about it, but my photoshop skills are terrible.
now for those of you that dont understand the irony to my post in regards to the interview, Why didnt anyone tell him no to all his cnc unit clones? you know the A move colossus.... It just makes me wonder what they actually told him no to... alot of what im referring to is the final paragraph of that interview when hes talking about unit design and making "Cool" units.
Actually, Dustin Browder didn't work on C&C3 and RA3. Heck, RA3 was announced in 2008, which was after many of SC2's core designs had been previewed.
As far as your comparisons go, I do disagree with some of them.
The Viking was unveiled BEFORE the Mecha Tengu was unveiled for RA3. The Viking was introduced in 2007 in some of the first preview videos. The Mecha Tengu was announced in 2008 with the full unveil of the Empire of the Rising Sun faction that was revealed months after the original RA3 announcement. One could say that the Mecha Tengu copied the Viking.
The Stalker is literally a Dragoon with Blink that was made slightly weaker to compensate for the added mobility.
Although the Hellion is visually inspired by the Attack Buggies of C&C, the Vulture from BW also is very similar in functionality.
Also, I don't think the Annihilator Tripod did AOE damage. It could shoot in 3 different directions, but I think the lasers were concentrated on single targets which made it more of an anti-armor unit whereas the Colossi mainly counters low-HP units in small numbers and everything in larger numbers. Visually, there are obvious similarities.
In addition, I'm not surprised to see some cues in SC2's design from C&C3. C&C3 was fairly well-received when it was released, and similar to SC2, it was praised by critics as a good example of an old-school RTS design being modernized. Heck, C&C3 was even a modest e-sport for some time to a point where it appeared at WCG for a few years.
Did Dustin Browder also work on C&C: Generals? Because that game was awesome and pretty competitive without stupid units.
I wonder why didn't he use some of those units in SC2 instead of RA3 or CnC3 ones
Buses full of mob with Ak47s :D Armored vehicles that you could change the function depending on what you put inside. At least we know how they came up with the idea of cloaking the buildings in SC2 :D
And epic comments like "Thanks you for the new shoes" or "Ak47 for everyone!"
EPT
