|
On April 15 2011 23:23 Celadan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 23:14 Trentelshark wrote:On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote:
When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled".
Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney. So basically you're saying MC should NOT have gone with a sure thing and instead gambled for the sake of entertaining the crowd and potentially lose $15,000? That makes absolutely 0 sense if you really think about it from MC's perspective. If you were in MC's shoes and had the decision to proxy and KNOW you're going to win, or, go for say a 4 gate and POTENTIALLY lose, which would you go with? The answer from almost anyone's perspective should be the sure thing and proxy. Their number one goal is to win (ie. make a living), the secondary goal is to entertain, not the other way around. First of all, that was a high risk build, I don't care if MC saw the opportunity or not but if Whitera had scouted that he would have won, aka MC relied on luck that last game. Wathever you or MC says that was not safe, its a cheese; that's why its not safe, an allin that will make you loose if your opponent scouts it and react properly And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLNOSKILLRUSHGEAM-craft" which is the metagame many of the mathcups are slowly moving towards.
First of all, White-ra had a high risk build. I don't care if White-ra was trying to take it to a macro game or not but it was so greedy and late-scouting that if MC realized he was doing it over and over again, he could counter it with proxy 2-gate and win, aka, white-ra relied on luck that series. Whatever you or white-ra says that was not safe, it's an incredibly greedy PvP opening with a very late scout. It's an eco opening that will make you lose if your opponent gets wise to it and reacts properly.
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLHIGHRISKECOOPENINGSGOINGUNPUNISHED-craft" which is the metagame many of the retards bashing MC want the game to move towards.
|
On April 16 2011 02:14 Ownos wrote:LOL I hate that article. Read it years ago. Marred by a sense of elitism and contradictions. First half: "Lol don't make arbitrary rules scrub" Second part: "Don't use Akuma, or certain exploits... we can make these rules because we are pro and therefore JUSTIFIED" What? He admits to grey area stuff like this though. Haha
How is that a contradiction? Some things are unbeatable, like Akuma as a boss character. There is a difference between unbeatable under any circumstance and extremely hard to counter.
|
MC won fair and square, I don't know why people are hating on him. A win is a win.
Wonder how Jinro got scammed? That sucks.
|
I dont get why people are not able to get over this finals thing...
yeah MC cheesed white-ra, white-ra lost to it, he knew it was a possibility going in, MC won, its over, whining wont change a thing.
Can we as a community PLEASE get over this, it really starts to get annoying
|
On April 16 2011 00:50 Longshank wrote:
So 30 people tops out of 50 000 viewers BMed him and he feels the need to tweet about it. More were disappointed by an anticlimactic final game but that's not BM.
The kid needs to grow thinker skin. Fast.
People like you make me laugh
|
The final was amazing, the crowd was so pumped every game, and that it went to a 5th game just made everything better(yes I was there seeing it live). Bit of a shame the last game was quite anticlimatic, but I fully understand -why- MC did it, he saw the opportunity and took it, anyone would with 15k on the line.
I, myself, would have preferred a long macro game to settle it all, but regardless, we got to see sick cool games, both White-Ra and MC played great through the tourney and they both deserved the win, and MC got out on top, so grats to him!
|
Anywhere where we can watch these games?
|
|
|
Not gonna lie, I can't wait till some better BW pros switch over and MC is left in the dust
|
On April 15 2011 22:50 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 22:41 Scrubington wrote:
Why does MC feel the need to explain himself? He's literally the best starcraft 2 player in the world. (I guess tied with MVP ? since they both won GSL twice) dreamhack > code A
Mvp > dreamhack. Oh dang I just told you
|
On April 16 2011 02:19 jcarlson08 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 23:23 Celadan wrote:On April 15 2011 23:14 Trentelshark wrote:On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote:
When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled".
Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney. So basically you're saying MC should NOT have gone with a sure thing and instead gambled for the sake of entertaining the crowd and potentially lose $15,000? That makes absolutely 0 sense if you really think about it from MC's perspective. If you were in MC's shoes and had the decision to proxy and KNOW you're going to win, or, go for say a 4 gate and POTENTIALLY lose, which would you go with? The answer from almost anyone's perspective should be the sure thing and proxy. Their number one goal is to win (ie. make a living), the secondary goal is to entertain, not the other way around. First of all, that was a high risk build, I don't care if MC saw the opportunity or not but if Whitera had scouted that he would have won, aka MC relied on luck that last game. Wathever you or MC says that was not safe, its a cheese; that's why its not safe, an allin that will make you loose if your opponent scouts it and react properly And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLNOSKILLRUSHGEAM-craft" which is the metagame many of the mathcups are slowly moving towards. First of all, White-ra had a high risk build. I don't care if White-ra was trying to take it to a macro game or not but it was so greedy and late-scouting that if MC realized he was doing it over and over again, he could counter it with proxy 2-gate and win, aka, white-ra relied on luck that series. Whatever you or white-ra says that was not safe, it's an incredibly greedy PvP opening with a very late scout. It's an eco opening that will make you lose if your opponent gets wise to it and reacts properly. And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLHIGHRISKECOOPENINGSGOINGUNPUNISHED-craft" which is the metagame many of the retards bashing MC want the game to move towards.
I've heard this opinion - that the 3 stalker opening is unsafe - throughout that LR thread, I see it repeated here, and yet I still don't agree. The opening isn't greedy with a reasonable rush distance, and tons of players use it as a springboard to a defensive 4gate (that's what kiwikaki did in every single pvp of his at MLG Dallas). Using 3 early Chronoboosts on probes makes holding off proxies more difficult, but not altogether impossible.
The reason WhiteRa lost that game, was because he clearly didn't know the map would force cross-positions and that therefore cheese would be a lot more likely. If he had scouted the proxy with his probe after building a gateway, he would've been able to defend with some good control.
The real greed in WhiteRa's play was his excessive probe production. He was in a good position to hold the all-in in games 3 and 4, but made too many probes, and not enough units. This is all the more bewildering, because in game 3, he knew 100% that MC had cut probe production and was going all-in with 4 gateways, and yet he kept making probes, and lost.
|
On April 16 2011 02:17 Albrithe wrote:Thank you for that in-depth explanation of what "scrub" means Flare23, I've never understood what that term meant. But I don't really see how it ties into this discussion. Are you calling the people who trashed on MC scrubs?  I didn't see the game, but I doubt many people would have acted differently if they had the same understanding of the game as MC.
I believe that most people who are trashing MC are trying to justify the feeling of "injustice" that the player they were rooting for lost. In order to legitimize and rationalize their feelings, they create fictitious standards of "don't cheese" and "play an long drawn-out macro game". They try to create a reality in which the player they were rooting for "wins" or at least takes a moral victory despite the fact they lost the match. Hence you see comments like "the better player lost!" or "he can only win by cheesing!" or "even though he wins, his games are boring!"
|
On April 16 2011 02:27 Fayfay wrote:
The final was amazing, the crowd was so pumped every game, and that it went to a 5th game just made everything better(yes I was there seeing it live). Bit of a shame the last game was quite anticlimatic, but I fully understand -why- MC did it, he saw the opportunity and took it, anyone would with 15k on the line.
I, myself, would have preferred a long macro game to settle it all, but regardless, we got to see sick cool games, both White-Ra and MC played great through the tourney and they both deserved the win, and MC got out on top, so grats to him!
Funny, I thought the last game was quite climatic.
|
It was a damn good bo 5 for white ra and mc fans. It was really thrilling and the last match was just disappointing. The disappointment changed to anger. Whitera made the mistake not to scout a map where proxy gateways are really nothing new. Yes this was a mistake and yes mc abused it. And no he couldn't know that whitera wouldn't scout it. You can't know that even if you study your oponents play style for weeks. In such a game is everything possible and mc won because statistical whitera do not scout after pylon. There was also luck involved.
Many people don't undestand that such a forward planning is a skill too. Not only micro and macro define a game but also the preparation. I wouldn't call him a strategic genius... sry but it really wasn't a complicated plan... .
The point is there are player who think in that situation: "I know that he wouldn't scout my proxy but i don't want to win the tournament by luck and statistical possibility. I want to show a good game and win by beeing a better player on the field." These players are more likeable because they seem to be "fair".
|
Not going to lie, I laughed ridiculously hard at some of the posts in this topic. Mostly the ones with the red text at the end.
Did I particularly enjoy that last game? Not really.
Would I have done the same? Hell yeah.
Did I learn a lot? YES. That is a beautiful demonstration of playing BOx and reading your opponent. I hate cheese when I see it on the ladder because I think it's dumb to cheese on the ladder, but in tournaments it's completely justified and useful in series situations, and a read and execution in that situation is just masterful, and I really feel like I learned a lot to incorporate in that series.
So, thanks MC. Fighting!
|
If you guys are confused where all the Bm came from, check the Dreamhack tournament thread... it was crazy and you can see how many fans of whitera there were apparently since posts blew up as white-ra was up 2-0 and then died down and blew up at 2-3 saying stuff like MC doesn't deserve that win, or im no longer a fan of MC anymore or how if he played a normal game MC would have lost. It was pretty sad.
Anyways in the end, MC won, White-Ra lost. No excuses. Both are great players.
|
Honestly I respect MC for having what it takes to risk 15.000$ (Fifteen thousand dollars) with a proxy which, if scouted early, can be held off.
By the way, to all people saying Idra is the man (I have nothing against him be clear), you forget Idra did more cheeses than MC did. Aka 6 pools
|
Why are people saying, "pure luck, had Ra scouted MC would instalose" etc? Unless White-Ra scouted the proxy VERY early, defending it still would be extremely difficult; like if he did a standard 10-ish supply scout straight into MCs base, he would be in a very tough spot, nevermind not scouting it at all. Even scouting the Gateways before they are up doesn't really guarantee you the win in such a situation, so yea...
aLso, the suspense of that game was amazing :p
|
Wasn't really any suspense at all in that game, everyone knew it was over like 40 sec into the game, it was a dissapointing final. Awesome games before it, but a terribly boring last game, in my oppinion, ofcourse.
|
On April 15 2011 23:59 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 21:48 HolyArrow wrote:On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote:
I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh Nice job accusing MC of being outplayed and going for cheese when there's a very credible post right above yours that pretty much refutes the idea completely. You couldn't have posted at a more perfect time if you wanted to look ignorant. Yeah he has been outplayed, and oh god I looked ignorant on TL! Man my life is over. WhiteRa did the huge mistake of not expecting a cheese on g4 & 5, he over probed, didnt scout enough, and played quite bad, it was like he thought this was already won. But yeah, MC didnt impress me at all during this tournament. And yeah very credible post from an ex team mate of his who insults everyone that disagree with him, way to go tard thats how you debate. And seriously, WhiteRa isnt really solid, there is huge mistakes in his play, I remember seing him supply block himself at the worse moment ever (4 gate at his ramp), mis microed some units at early stages, and yeah MC didnt win him in a convincing way. Therefor, yeah, MC isnt a sc2 god like everyone tends to say, he's a top player worldwide, for sure, but so far from being unbeatable, we'll talk about it in 2 month anyway, dear genius, I'm so sorry for exposing my ignorance to you, you made me laugh tho Edit: and about IdrA, I like his style, I dont over estimate him like a lot of people do, he just makes me laugh as a cocky player in his interview and reactions, MC is just cocky and there is nothing funny there, but yeah you could compare the two, IdrA is just entertaining
Wait, so first you mention many mistakes that WhiteRa made (and that MC didn't make, I might add), and you claim that MC got outplayed? Do you even know what the word "outplayed" means? I don't mean that in a condescending way; I'm legitimately curious, because I can't fathom how someone could say that Player A got outplayed by Player B, then elaborate on that statement by mentioning all the mistakes that Player B made that helped Player A win. Avoiding mistakes that your opponent makes and capitalizing on them for a win is pretty much the definition of "outplayed", so it seems that you have things backwards. So yes, you did expose your ignorance, and you continue to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
