Which translates to (credits to Arumi for this on the LR thread) + Show Spoiler +
MC just tweeted: I wish somebody to translate what I'm tweeting now for the foreign fans who are BM'ing me. White-Ra kept using the same starting build 5 consecutive times, and I just couldn't help countering it. What's wrong with this? I did the proxy 'cause I knew White-ra wouldn't produce the first zealot at all. Do you really think I just gambled in the $15000 game? I was so confident about the proxy at that moment.
I only did the best to win the game since I'm a pro. BTW the airplane has been delayed and I've been waiting here Turkey with Jinro and Huk. TT I can't wait to return to my home country.
A funny thing is, Jinro and I came here without a Visa while Huk made one, which had Huk waste $200. lol. Jinro also was scammed in Sweden. What a bad day for them.
I think he has a point since he is a progamer and this is his life, he has to do what he has to do to win. Unfortunately white ra is like an idol to us 'foreigners' so we're a little rough when he loses to what we perceive as a very cheap win. I don't think he should feel sorry or mad at all, 15k was on the line :o
A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
the people criticizing mc for using a winning strategy are just idiots and its really sad to me that there are enough of them that he even notices. it shouldn't even be a topic of discussion, and it wouldn't be if white-ra did it to mc instead of the reverse.
Im surprised people would be upset over what seemed to be a really strong mental game on MC's part. The way he explained it in the tweet just shows how he can read the game very well and adjust his playstyle to accommodate for BoX similarities. (white ra not making an early zealot)
Love to hear that he was confident. He may be taking the troll bait, but he's just making a simple statement, nothing more.
More curious about the "Jinro was cheated in Sweden" thing. Sounds like a crappy trip with all the logistical problems they've been mentioning. At least he got a hero's welcome though.
On April 15 2011 10:14 UberThing wrote: Jinro was cheated?
He just means he thinks Jinro deserved to go further and getting knocked out first round in a big tournament in your home country kind of sucks. At least... that's what I would assume.
People fail to realize that it wasn't a gamble 50/50 cheese. It was a very analyzed and calculated cheese. A great player won, as he should have. And stupid people criticize and cry out and flame.
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
How was his win dirty?
Read my post, don't assume anything, it makes an ass of u and me
I really don't like cocky people and I certainly don't find it interesting to watch MC play but he shouldn't be receiving all of this bs - MC won and was the better player. Get over it.
Personally, I love when a player is punished for playing greedily. For the same reasons, I don't have a problem with cheeses every once in a while. I mean, if you rely on that to win I won't respect you as a progamer, but MC has proved he is one of the best, if not the best, players in the world. Keeping people honest is no crime in my book.
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
How was his win dirty?
Read my post, don't assume anything, it makes an ass of u and me
I just hope that the ridiculous hate spewing doesn't turn off pros from entering foreign tournaments. It is great being passionate but this kind of thing can actually hurt the game. Great to see MC giving just as much as he gets. People need to realise their place.
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
How was his win dirty?
He cheesed the final game of the series when it was 2-2 bo5
I think first and foremost , cheesing is all fair and square in a competition because you do what you to do win. Thus there are people who supports MC saying it's ok that he cheesed in the last game and there are people flaming him for cheesing.
But MC's point here is that he was not cheesing at all. Cheesing implied something that is luck based. MC's proxy gate was something that was based on knowledge of previous games and white-ra's build. That he scouts after gate and he skips the first zealot. He used the first 4 games to reconfirm it and thus punished him in the 5th game.
So calling it cheese underestimates the amount of thought MC put into that decision. It wasn't like he decided to proxy gate and pray white-ra doesnt make the first zealot and scout early.. He KNEW white-ra wasn't going to scout and make the zealot
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
How was his win dirty?
He cheesed the final game of the series when it was 2-2 bo5
It was a calculated build. It's the same as people cheesing Sjow when he didn't SCV scout.
MC exploited WhiteRa's greedy play perfectly. I noticed that Russian and Ukraine fans have really strong feelings when it comes to players like bratok and Whitea, and they get really angry over anything that doesn't go in their favor. MC played better and smarter, don't try to play down MC's achievement. Cheese in a tournament of this caliber is something that is done intelligently, he got outplayed.
Not sure who was flaming MC but it was a great call to proxy in that game, and MC got to where he is (the best in SC2...for now) by taking those calculated risks and being decisive.
I love WhiteRa as much as the next person and wanted to see him win...but he threw the series away. MC had an epic comeback and deserved to win.
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
How was his win dirty?
Read my post, don't assume anything, it makes an ass of u and me
So how was his win dirty?
He did not say it was dirty, he said "how dirty it seems to be", there is a difference.
He read white-ra's game and saw a weakness against early aggression. He adapted perfectly to counter it and white-ra wasn't able to handle MC's shift in play. Being able to pull that build out in a final of a bo5 for $10,000 would have taken balls of steel, especially considering he was the strong favourite going in. It was made even more impressive since I don't think I have ever seen MC do a "cheese" build like that before.
I didn't see the finals yet, but who is BM'ing him, and how? Were the swedes throwing Nerdballs at him at the airport? If he concludes that the way he concluded that Jinro was cheated by being knocked out in the first round, he should sniff in his korean patriot flag and get over it. MC is without a doubt probably the best player in the world right now, but isn't the arrogant "thumb down" thing his pose?
Altho I can imagine at some point people's flames start getting to you, I'm surprised he's reacting to it all the same. People are always going to bitch and whine when someone they like lose, virtually in whatever fashion it happens.
white-ra didn't even consider that there could be proxy gates, mc exploited that weakness. You'd think people would be able to wrap their heads around that
I think what people are bitching about is that a very great finals got a very anticlimactic last game. If he was cheesing in game 3 noone would've cared. Still, a win is a win and it's pretty silly to complain at all :/ As MC said, it was a very thought out strategy.
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
How was his win dirty?
He cheesed the final game of the series when it was 2-2 bo5
Buuu to all the trolls/haters, I'm tired of reading all the crap on the chat streams how X player is bad when you yourself have no skills, MC won $15000 after that game, what have you accomplished?
Can some of the haters come out please? MC's "cheese" was carefully thought out through analyzing ra's playstyle. Regardless of if it's set 1 or 5, he showed through his plays that he was the better player by skill and not by luck
On April 15 2011 10:14 UberThing wrote: Jinro was cheated?
He just means he thinks Jinro deserved to go further and getting knocked out first round in a big tournament in your home country kind of sucks. At least... that's what I would assume.
I'll clear this so ppl dun come up with weird idea.
He said he got frauded/ripped off. Simple as that nothing more.
I definitely cheered for White-ra, but in this case it was so obvious it will work I did not even slightly get annoyed with MC, I got slightly annoyed(not really in the angry way, more like sad) with White-ra that he did not scout his base. And harassing MC because of that is even worse.
I linked MC to this thread and said that a user from TL translated his tweet. Hopefully he'll see the comments here and get the gist of it and understand that we are backing him up ^^
What I'm most concerned about is that the shortsighted haters MC is speaking to (who seem to be curiously absent from this thread thus far) are being represented as the attitude of the entire Western community.
I hope he realizes that any true Starcraft fan understands what went down. It's rather sad that sheer ignorance of the strategic mindset resulted in MC having to defend his playstyle.
Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
Don't like MC anymore because of this tweet, not because of him explaining himself but because of his comments about can't wait to get back to his home country and Jinro getting cheated. Really just comes off douchey.
On April 15 2011 10:25 Datum wrote: Personally, I love when a player is punished for playing greedily. For the same reasons, I don't have a problem with cheeses every once in a while. I mean, if you rely on that to win I won't respect you as a progamer, but MC has proved he is one of the best, if not the best, players in the world. Keeping people honest is no crime in my book.
This is the truth. White-Ra had 28 probes vs MC's 20. Playing greedy is great if you can live, but if you can't, then you need to back off the probe production. White-Ra was greedy and got punished. He got what he deserved.
On April 15 2011 10:49 RmoteCntrld wrote: Don't like MC anymore because of this tweet, not because of him explaining himself but because of his comments about can't wait to get back to his home country and Jinro getting cheated. Really just comes off douchey.
uh what.. getting stuck on a delayed flight sucks. He can't wait for his flight so he can get back home. That was not him saying other countries suck at all. He has said multiple times how he loved sweden. How is that douchy.
And Jinro getting cheated was not him getting cheated out of the tourney by white-ra. Someone translated earlier that Jinro got ripped off. Probably a separate real life incident.
On April 15 2011 10:48 Jarmam wrote: Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
It's more than a bit of fanboyism, don't downplay it and honestly, if you're being discredited of all your career achievements purely because there are a lot of short-sighted people (should have read the LR DH topic), you'd have reacted like him.
Until you are in his shoes, you can't be antagonizing towards his words that are only meant to remedy and explain a situation that doesn't need any explanation.
On April 15 2011 10:48 Jarmam wrote: Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
Wow, he just explained his reasoning.
On April 15 2011 10:49 RmoteCntrld wrote: Don't like MC anymore because of this tweet, not because of him explaining himself but because of his comments about can't wait to get back to his home country and Jinro getting cheated. Really just comes off douchey.
People on TL are so extreme. He mentioned that Jinro got scammed by somebody and that he's excited to go back to Korea and you don't like him anymore? Relax a little.
Sometimes I can imagine some crazy TL poster reading a twitter of a progamer, like Nada's, and seeing a tweet like the "hi haypro" tweet from a few weeks ago and suddenly turning blue in the face and running around their room tearing down the nada posters in a fit of tears. It's just insanity here sometimes.
I don't know if it was a european or north american thing, but the fact ogsmc got enough crap to have to tweet about winning the way he did is embarassing for the foreigner community.
Not only is it embarassing it's such a scrubby mindset.
regardless of the gap of actual mechanical or strategic skill, the fact people complained shows koreans are just better mentally at the game as well.
I feel kind of embarassed for the whole non-Korean community that MC even had to hear about any shit like this. I love both White-Ra and MC and I'm sure White-ra would tell all the haters that stuff like that happens. MC took a risk and it worked out, if white-ra had scouted his main he would have won.
Idk if anyone realized, I'm sure whitera would have been able to fight it off given his good decision making or at least drag the game on longer, but
WhiteRa apparently didn't know the version he was playing on was cross position only. Therefore, he scouted at 13 instead of 9, and in the wrong direction too If he scouted at 9 he would have had much more time to react .
On April 15 2011 11:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Idk if anyone realized, I'm sure whitera would have been able to fight it off given his good decision making or at least drag the game on longer, but
WhiteRa apparently didn't know the version he was playing on was cross position only. Therefore, he scouted at 13 instead of 9, and in the wrong direction too If he scouted at 9 he would have had much more time to react .
That's his fault though, he's played on both versions and it says numerous time what map is being played ;x
I don't think pros should acknowledge all the ranting from the trolls/fan boys. Its like throwing gasoline on a bonfire. It actually makes them look bad from a professional standpoint. Just keep playing, and keep winning.
On April 15 2011 10:49 RmoteCntrld wrote: Don't like MC anymore because of this tweet, not because of him explaining himself but because of his comments about can't wait to get back to his home country and Jinro getting cheated. Really just comes off douchey.
People on TL are so extreme. He mentioned that Jinro got scammed by somebody and that he's excited to go back to Korea and you don't like him anymore? Relax a little.
Sometimes I can imagine some crazy TL poster reading a twitter of a progamer, like Nada's, and seeing a tweet like the "hi haypro" tweet from a few weeks ago and suddenly turning blue in the face and running around their room tearing down the nada posters in a fit of tears. It's just insanity here sometimes.
No kidding. Even the fact that tweet had to be made in MC's mind speaks volumes. Lets do a rational survey of the events. MC cheeses in a final game of a final match and wins. For some reason this is considered worse than killing small babies by some fans. Why do they feel this way? Because it's white ra? Some other reason?? Who even knows anymore
Yeah there was a lot of discussion about that. I think even if he had scouted cross first, the fact that he scouted on 12 and doesn't make that first zealot against MC(pretty greedy, but you have to cut corners to beat players who are better at standard play than you) meant that he was going to be hurt pretty badly even if he realized what was going on a bit sooner. IMO MC could've been up to 5 zealots before the first cannon came out and I'm not sure white-ra could've covered his probes sufficiently. MC's micro is amazing and he knows exactly how to make decisions in these situations, so even if you know what's going on and can make the forge in time it's a scary situation.
who are the idiots who actually would complain about MC's win at Dreamhack? I don't see anything wrong with the way he played and if white ra was the one who did the cheese and won those very same people would be ECSTATIC. sometimes i just dont understand people...
On April 15 2011 10:14 UberThing wrote: Jinro was cheated?
He just means he thinks Jinro deserved to go further and getting knocked out first round in a big tournament in your home country kind of sucks. At least... that's what I would assume.
Pretty sure that's not what he meant. A more literal translation of that phrase is "Jinro was swindled in Sweden". Maybe Jinro can come in here and clear it up for us.
On April 15 2011 10:49 RmoteCntrld wrote: Don't like MC anymore because of this tweet, not because of him explaining himself but because of his comments about can't wait to get back to his home country and Jinro getting cheated. Really just comes off douchey.
Don't post something like this when you don't even understand the context behind it. As for "Jinro getting cheated", refer to the first part of my post. I don't believe that he was talking about Dreamhack results reading what he originally wrote in Korean.
MC actually gave a big compliment to the Swedish fans a couple of days ago saying how happy he was to receive such grand welcome and he almost wishes GSL was held in Sweden instead. However, he also made posts about how he misses Korean food and eating bread every meal didn't suit him very well. Is it a crime for this guy to want to be back home? Is it "douchery" in your opinion?
On April 15 2011 10:48 Jarmam wrote: Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
lmao you sound like the one "butthurt". MC just setting facts straight and stacking his $15k.
Well, in Boxer era I suppose he got flamed as well for being a bunker cheesy player but he doesn't mind.. Since, these are the years of the net I suppose tweeting some pay back to the haters ain't a big deal
Would have done the same thing if I feel like it's BS already to the point of troll dom
On April 15 2011 10:18 PITN wrote: He should just ignore the white-ra fanboys
Agreed. MC did a good job winning from 2-0 down. Even though I felt for July more than Whitera where MC did the same thing but i understand that he used the best "special tactic" to win and the onus/blame should be on the opponent for not knowing how to stop it.
On the same note, Incontrol should also learn to ignore the haters and address the "likers" instead in the SOTG thread. By doing so he encourages "likers" participation instead of feeding the trolls.
I like MC as a person and has no problem about his tactics to win, as long as he doesn't cheat. He shouldn't listen to antifans, there will always be people who are not happy.
On April 15 2011 11:09 Sanguinarius wrote: I hate when people give pro gammers shit for using builds.
Their job is to win, not to make it look pretty.
Pretty much this, and MC's explanation. he was playing mindgames, he made a read. If White-Ra is that predictable, then I'm sorry but he deserved to lose...if MC can make the read and the correct (even if "cheesy" and "not entertaining") then he deserved the win, even if he did knock out your favorite player.
State of the Game covered this in their most recent podcast. iNcontroL said, in agreement with everyone else, that they would play any style to win when there is money on the line. You have to be a fucking idiot not to.
To the fans, this is obviously going to make them feel cheated. However, so few fans take the time to put themselves in the shoes of the player. They also don't consider the gravity of the situation. As echoed so many times in this thread already, $15000 was on the line - you're a moron if you're not playing to win. oGsMC did what it took to win the tournament.
Fans are always going to be jilted when they see their favorite players get cheesed. It's not very fun to watch and they gain nothing out of it. But the players aren't cheating, so people really need to shut the hell up.
If MC had won that game because was better player, then he wouldn't feel the need for the rebuttle. White-Ra is clearly the best protoss in the world right now.
It was still a great series, I think people just wanted to see WhiteRa dethrone the God-Protoss which is understandable. But at the highest level (which both WhiteRa and MC are) all strategies should be considered at all times. I feel bad that he is getting hard BM.....
On April 15 2011 11:16 travis wrote: Noobs should feel honored that MC addressed their dumbass complaints.
Pretty much this, it sucks that the very minority voicing complains on how he won the tournament made him actually respond to it. I hope he knows now, or eventually that it's just the idiots.
On April 15 2011 10:29 Mortality wrote: Don't see what fans are bitching about. What did MC do wrong other than win? :/
He won against White-Ra.
Big deal? White-Ra deserved to lose. He played greedily every game, going up to near 30 probes against Mc's 20.
But some people don't want to see White-Ra lose. So fanboys start bashing MC and blindly ignore the fact that White-Ra was playing greedily every game.
On April 15 2011 10:48 Jarmam wrote: Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
except when Jaedong 4 pools,
we don't see a swarm of foreigners spouting out that Jaedong has no skill and cheese is the only way Jaedong can win.
are you implying MC is not supposed to get hurt? we've known that he's been trying to connect to his foreign fans more and many progamers (JD incl.) derive a lot of social support and confidence from their fans. perhaps not twittering about this would have been more professional but don't write as if you know what it feels like to have a sizeable foreign community de-legitimizing your talent and skills to cheese.
if you actually had something you cared about (not that i'm saying you do) and actually spent so much effort and time to finally achieve something worth being proud about, but the public ascribes your achievement to random chance and no talent/skill whatsoever, yeah i'm sure you won't feel too bad.....right
on another note, MC should use this as motivation to get even better. the only way to shut up foreign trolls is to continue beating foreigners for an extended period of time so that eventually, even the foreign trolls will have no choice but to shut the fuck up.
What do people expect MC to do? Make an apology for playing to win $15,000?
Understandably, people like White-Ra and want him to win, or see a repeat of the GSL World Champion, but this is a tournament, these are PRO-GAMERS playing to WIN, not to entertain.
It would have been nice to see Jinro go much further though, seeing at it was his home turf.
When are people going to stop giving pro players flak for cheesing. There is money on the line folks. Just because your favorite player lost doesn't mean you have the right to call the guy that won a bad person.
On April 15 2011 11:23 Lore-Fighting wrote: If MC had won that game because was better player, then he wouldn't feel the need for the rebuttle. White-Ra is clearly the best protoss in the world right now.
NIce reasoning there hater.
white ra is clearly the best in your own little world.
I think everyone in this thread is saying a lot of the same thing:
MC, we love watching you play, and you never have to make excuses to us. We'll always be fans.
So how about this. How about we tweet this to him, or post it on his facebook page, or make Cheerfuls for him. Let's show him that foreigners like us support him, and that this flak he's getting is the minority.
Most people that day wanted White-Ra to win, I mean come on, he is one of the nicest guys and a great player, being up 2-0 against MC especially, so we were upset win he lost, albeit by cheese but it was clearly a well thought out strategy. I have to admit, even I was upset that he lost in that way, but that is only because of White-Ra losing, not because of MC's strategies. He clearly deserved the win at the end of the day. Looking forward to DH summer now and MC showing the foreign trolls whats what!!
Most of the BM comes from the incessant, cesspool that is the live report threads. The people who BM about "cheese" and "cheap wins" live their lives on LR threads, pro player stream chats, and bnet forums; they are ignorant about what is on the line in these tournaments, whether a strategy is really a coin flip guess, or an educated decision.
On April 15 2011 11:23 Lore-Fighting wrote: If MC had won that game because was better player, then he wouldn't feel the need for the rebuttle. White-Ra is clearly the best protoss in the world right now.
NIce reasoning there hater.
white ra is clearly the best in your own little world.
No matter what MC does, he can't win.
You're pathetic.
Indeed, it seems people have forgotten that MC 3-0'd White-Ra in the TSL3. Thank you come again.
why is there so much of this silly hate either way? mc played to win, but used builds that are hardly skill showcasing or entertaining to watch to get there and so he got flamed for it. add in the idiots who will/have come to baseless conclusions on mc and you get your standard predictable community reaction.
On April 15 2011 10:48 Jarmam wrote: Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
except when Jaedong 4 pools,
we don't see a swarm of foreigners spouting out that Jaedong has no skill and cheese is the only way Jaedong can win.
are you implying MC is not supposed to get hurt? we've known that he's been trying to connect to his foreign fans more and many progamers (JD incl.) derive a lot of social support and confidence from their fans. perhaps not twittering about this would have been more professional but don't write as if you know what it feels like to have a sizeable foreign community de-legitimizing your talent and skills to cheese.
if you actually had something you cared about (not that i'm saying you do) and actually spent so much effort and time to finally achieve something worth being proud about, but the public ascribes your achievement to random chance and no talent/skill whatsoever, yeah i'm sure you won't feel too bad.....right
on another note, MC should use this as motivation to get even better. the only way to shut up foreign trolls is to continue beating foreigners for an extended period of time so that eventually, even the foreign trolls will have no choice but to shut the fuck up.
I feel the exact same way. Previously (I'm thinking BW but I could be wrong), if foreign fans raged as much as what happened this time, most Korean progamer would not have responded because 1) they don't know about the foreign community or 2) their focus is on the Korean fans. MC is reaching out to the foreign community by giving a response to these people. Other than interviews, how often did we get to interact with a progamer like this? This issue is probably important for him as well since he's good friends with a lot of foreign progames like Jinro and the rest of TL. Even if you don't like his style, you at least have to respect his answer and his effort to communicate with the fans.
No need to apologize MC, You're the best and ppl keep forgetting that you are not only good at early agression, but also amazing at macro, so who cares if theres a proxy gate. who the hell here wouldnt do the same when noticing weaknesses like the skipping zealot or the gateway scout to win this tournament.
On April 15 2011 11:54 Ridiculisk wrote: Personally I could care less about the proxy...He did what he needed to to win. We can't blame him for that.
I will say though, maybe the reason so many people are hating on MC has less to do with his play and more to do with his attitude?
Where I come from someone who talks like that is practically asking to get their ass kicked.
No, these haters are cowards of the worst kind.
They should just come out and say it, and stop making elaborate bs reasons to hate on MC.
They don't like MC because he's Korean and he beat their beloved "foreigner"
That's all it is. Reverse the roles, if White ra won while being down 0-2, these haters would be jumping for joy and praising white ra for his amazing ballsy play.
he won fair and square in a series game. Its white-ra´s loss he played the same way and that is a big disadvantage in series games. Cheese or no cheese its strategy guys. Im sad about white-ra but MC is right.
On April 15 2011 11:23 Lore-Fighting wrote: If MC had won that game because was better player, then he wouldn't feel the need for the rebuttle. White-Ra is clearly the best protoss in the world right now.
JD actually quit twitter, because of fans heckling him for his poor (relative) performances a few months ago. Koreans are just sensitive to their public image, MC included. Not surprised that he would tweet about this bullshit.
Ra getting 3-0'd in the TSL (when both played in Korea) doesn't count, right?
I like both MC and White-Ra. What MC did was very smart, in a series of more than 1 game, reading your opponent and adapting your play to his weaknesses. I mean, anyone can cheese 1 game vs someone and win, but MC had a clear reason for what he did and it was strategically sound. One of the things that makes a good player is being unpredictable, so kudos to him.
There has never been anything wrong with cheesing a game in a series. Even since Broodwar top progamers would still sometimes cheese in a set and nobody ever complained. MC saw a glaring opening in White-Ra's play and knew a proxy gate would win. There is seriously nothing shameful in his decision. Haters... calm down, geez.
Hopefully someone can show this topic to MC so he knows that the haters are just an ignorant, vocal minority, and so he can rest assured that his real fans and plenty of the foreign community support him 100%. IMO few SC2 progamers have made as much effort as MC has to reach out to his foreign fans, and I really respect that.
On April 15 2011 10:48 Jarmam wrote: Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
The only butthurt I detect is from you. He probably heard of the whines and had to lay down the truth, simple as that. Judging by your angry tear-filled response, you got bitch slapped a bit too hard, but MC probably doesn't care.
On April 15 2011 11:45 tzenes wrote: I think everyone in this thread is saying a lot of the same thing:
MC, we love watching you play, and you never have to make excuses to us. We'll always be fans.
So how about this. How about we tweet this to him, or post it on his facebook page, or make Cheerfuls for him. Let's show him that foreigners like us support him, and that this flak he's getting is the minority.
I support MC's Choice. He was in a situation where he needed a come back and noticed a flaw, not once, but several times, in White-ra's play. He exploited it to win a large amount of money. This is what e-sports is about: playing to win. As spectators it wasn't necessarily the greatest game to watch, but we must always respect the players 100%.
Both White-ra and MC gave us a great series. Well done!
In high level sport, if you figure out an opponents go to play, you let them do it every time until the very end of the game, so they become complacent with it and when it matters, its easy to counter. How is this different?
MC shouldn't have to explain himself. Anyone who was watching would know White-Ra was delaying his gate in the best of five. Many have pointed it out. He did the appropriate build to counter it and White-Ra never saw it coming.
Always play to win, not to entertain the masses. If you can win a big tournament only by cannon rushing or 6 pooling, you will see everybody cannon rushing and 6 pooling. A month from now who's going to care or even remember?
On April 15 2011 12:27 CravenRaven wrote: In high level sport, if you figure out an opponents go to play, you let them do it every time until the very end of the game, so they become complacent with it and when it matters, its easy to counter. How is this different?
It's not. The haters would counter white-ra's build Xinfinity also for $15k. The one's that say they wouldn't are lying not only to us but themselves also.
If anyone or anything needs criticizing it would be White-Ra's lack of creativity.
On April 15 2011 10:48 Jarmam wrote: Is he seriously butthurt about a little fanboyism, getting some dirt thrown in his direction after a series like that? Really? MC? Someone give the guy a hug.
Ill be sure to send a napkin and a damp towel for Jaedong next time he 4pools and wins with it. Poor guy might need therapy after all the internet whining? I had no idea being a progamer was such a chore at times.
MC cares about the community and the fans, of course he gives a little shit. Honestly though he should just ignore the trolls/haters.
On April 15 2011 10:49 RmoteCntrld wrote: Don't like MC anymore because of this tweet, not because of him explaining himself but because of his comments about can't wait to get back to his home country and Jinro getting cheated. Really just comes off douchey.
Guy loves his home, anything wrong with that? >>>
On April 15 2011 11:16 travis wrote: Noobs should feel honored that MC addressed their dumbass complaints.
QFT.
And it's not like he consistently cheeses like toilet zerg or the man inside bunkie...
Why do people think that game #5 was anti-climatic? I was praying to Allah, Buddha, and many other deities that White Ra would not scout that proxy so oGs.MC would take that game. My heart beat faster, my palm sweated profusely, my eye focused on the screen until that moment. When White-Ra typed out GG, I know MC did it. God answers my prayers.
The LR thread was pretty disgusting after MC won, whether it was blind fanboyism or just simply they were pissed off by cheese is irrelevant. People need to realise that these top players play to win, and MC made a very smart move as he had analysed White-Ra's strategy so much so that he was willing to bet $15,000 on it because he felt that safe.
Grats to MC, let your dominance continue (I want a zerg to dethrone him when the time comes though! A man can dream:p)
he really should not have had to respond to the haters
it's really evident that a significant percentage of viewers have no idea what the strategy portion in RTS means
all MC had to do was quickly review replays and see WhiteRa's opening and whether he scouts around his base for proxies or not. he identified a whole in WhiteRa's PvP game and exposed it.
I am sure there are many americans on this site that follow football (nfl) and this exact issue comes up all the time. The strictly defensive/non exciting teams get all the flack. It is even the same in hockey (I am canadian I couldn't resist) every spectator would rather see a 9-1 game than a 1-0 game. But the key here is that if you are a fan of one of these teams you commend them for their superior effort and timely defense. There is a reason why in sports that the less exciting way to play wins, and it might be the opposite in esports. In real sports no one wants to see defense, in esports everyone is offended by offense.
On April 15 2011 12:54 JBrown08 wrote: I am sure there are many americans on this site that follow football (nfl) and this exact issue comes up all the time. The strictly defensive/non exciting teams get all the flack. It is even the same in hockey (I am canadian I couldn't resist) every spectator would rather see a 9-1 game than a 1-0 game. But the key here is that if you are a fan of one of these teams you commend them for their superior effort and timely defense. There is a reason why in sports that the less exciting way to play wins, and it might be the opposite in esports. In real sports no one wants to see defense, in esports everyone is offended by offense.
I'm american and I absolutely hate how the NFL is changing with the dissecting of the defense.
Hate to tell the trolls and haters "I told you so, it was a strategic move and not a lame cheese", but.... I told you so lol
I guess the better you become, the more haters you will get. Natural way of life.
EDIT: Oh, and as someone who doesn't live in their home country anymore, I'm laughing at the comments hating on him saying he wants to go back to korea. There's truly no feeling like touching down on the place you were born in and love.
And by cheated I think they meant robbed (loss of translation?), I remember reading about a player(s) getting robbed there or something.
On April 15 2011 12:27 CravenRaven wrote: In high level sport, if you figure out an opponents go to play, you let them do it every time until the very end of the game, so they become complacent with it and when it matters, its easy to counter. How is this different?
It's not. The haters would counter white-ra's build Xinfinity also for $15k. The one's that say they wouldn't are lying not only to us but themselves also.
If anyone or anything needs criticizing it would be White-Ra's lack of creativity.
Ya, exactly. People should be criticizing Whitera for using a bad build and losing because of it.
More like, the less you know about the situation the more absurd your comments will come off.
It was blatantly obvious what MC was doing and why he was doing it.
You have to mix up your builds in a Bo5. Then there are guys like BoxeR who can knock out players like YellOw doing bunker rushes. He's BoxeR for a reason.
On April 15 2011 10:24 luftrofl wrote: I really don't like cocky people and I certainly don't find it interesting to watch MC play but he shouldn't be receiving all of this bs - MC won and was the better player. Get over it.
Haters gonna hate
I feel the same way. I'm not a big fan of MC because he is really cocky/over-confident and some of the things he says comes of as rude and bm. But he is an extremely good player and doesn't deserve all the hate towards him. I'm sure if a lot of people were put in his position, they would do the same.
On April 15 2011 13:04 LynxSeba wrote: I think at the end is like this, mc won the tournament but if you ask me who was the better player overall the tournament White Ra takes that price.
I'd love to hear your explanation on how MC won and white ra didn't but somehow white ra is better?
On April 15 2011 13:04 LynxSeba wrote: I think at the end is like this, mc won the tournament but if you ask me who was the better player overall the tournament White Ra takes that price.
MC won more games and lost less game, combined AND in direct series with white-ra.
The question of who was the better player needs no argument. It's a sport. The better team is the one that wins.
Was it cheese? Yes Was it fun to watch? No Was it the sign of a very good player? Yes
MC gathered data from all 4 games and knew WR would be weak in the early game due to previous builds, thus he executed a strategy that would blow him out the water, and it did.
For that it is fun to watch someone pick another player apart by playstyle.
Jaedong 4 pools, Flash bunker rushes, Bisu 2 gates. Cheese is not the absence of skill (though sometimes it is). Cheese if properly timed is a good choice.
For people saying that MC is being overly sensitive about this, the guy apparently cares about his image and he's actively listening to what foreign fans say about him. I don't see how that is a negative to be honest.
If he overreacted with needless insults like "YOU NOOBS HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M DOING. I'M 1000 TIME BETTERS THAN YOU SO STFU ABOUT CHEESE OR WHATEVER", then yea I would be calling him an immature kid who can't take criticism, but that is not MC has done here. He merely gave rational reasons behind his strategies for people who didn't understand or refused to understand his proxy gate.
I was not aware that foreign fans were bashing MC about this until he twitted about it. I did go through the forum on battle.net and found some irrational scrubs repeating "that cheese is for newbs and that cheese abuses the trust between pro gamers and thus MC is a newb", those who criticize or hating on MC atm really have no good reason to, and if they do, they are as narrow-minded as the most extreme conservative creationists that you can't convince them even if Whitera or Socrates himself went up to them and told them otherwise.
In fact, to me, MC has simply shown me how strategically adaptive he is, truly a man of virtu (Machiavellian term for effective power/manliness,etc), and in starcraft, a man's game of manliness, strategic dominance and executions of those strategies is the only thing that matters, morals and respect do exist, they exist between the hearts of the top players, but there is no 'moral' way of playing starcraft, if exploitation is the key to victory, then it in the game-sense, it's the right thing to do and the heroic and truly manly thing to do.
For that, MC deserves his title "God Protoss/ Krato Protoss"
On April 15 2011 13:04 LynxSeba wrote: I think at the end is like this, mc won the tournament but if you ask me who was the better player overall the tournament White Ra takes that price.
I saw the match, I didn't feel that whitera was the better player, mechanically, i think both players were about even, strategically MC won over and thus MC to me was the better player.
On April 15 2011 13:03 Bear4188 wrote: I hope it gets back to MC that most of us don't think ill of him for using valid strategies, if anything we hate the game, no the player.
Maybe if Jinro or HuK reads this they'll pass it on.
Seriously. I kind of respect him for proxy 2gating. It takes some enormous balls to do that when 15K is on the line.
Plus, white ra scouted an area on the map which players could not spawn in, as that map was fixed to cross positions only. Imagine if his probe had gotten there 1 minute sooner, wouldn't have been quite the walkover, maybe enough time to get a forge up?
I loved white ra's play in that series, but MC did take advantage of his lack of an early zealot. Anyone flaming MC is uneducated. Does anyone really think MC was like 'oh yeah i cant handle another game with this guy, i better go all in on a cheese.'
I'd like to see some of the PvP games of these critics of MCs -near godlike- play and decision making, because if they can prove they're making snap judgments at the same level as MC, I think then you could criticize the win. But hey you're the progamer right? Not just 54 master, Right?
On April 15 2011 10:24 luftrofl wrote: I really don't like cocky people and I certainly don't find it interesting to watch MC play but he shouldn't be receiving all of this bs - MC won and was the better player. Get over it.
Haters gonna hate
I feel the same way. I'm not a big fan of MC because he is really cocky/over-confident and some of the things he says comes of as rude and bm. But he is an extremely good player and doesn't deserve all the hate towards him. I'm sure if a lot of people were put in his position, they would do the same.
I think you have take his cockiness/over-confidence for what he is trying to extrude them for, objectively they reflect his skills and dominance, and secondly it is part of this showmanship that is aimed at entertaining fans as well as an external and internal conditioning to give himself self-belief as well as a strategic move to perhaps dominate his opponents mentally before the match even starts, just as Artosis always says "the fear of the banshee", in SC2, MC is perpectually trying to impose the "fear of the MC".
The type of people that were talking about how much less they respected MC for proxy 2 gating White-Ra are probably not going to be watching Starcraft one year from now. They do not appreciate the strategy or the competition, they just want to see a lot of shiny units blowing each other up in high graphics settings. They will move on to the next big thing when it comes.
There is a reason you don't see this in BW LR threads (except from fanboys when it happens to Bisu or Flash) and it is also the reason that game is watched much less. Only the people who are truly interested in the game are left. I think this will be the case with SC2 in the long run too.
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
A win might be a win, it does not always speak of skill. However, MC is a professional player. We know he is highly skilled. The uproar at this circumstance of cheesing is absolutely ridiculous.
On April 15 2011 10:14 UberThing wrote: Jinro was cheated?
no, person who translated did not do a great job. poor choice to use in translation. jinro got 'scammed' is more of correct word of choice in that translation.
on separate note, i do respect MC's choice and it was a right choice. But am I his fan? No. I am fan of players who bring out most entertaining games.
Such as, San, Sen, July, Kyrix, Leenock, MMA, Bomber
I think to cheese in the ace game of a best of 5 is incredibly gutsy and as MC had said, WhiteRa skipped making an initial zealot which would have been crucial for him to stand any chance against MC in the final game.
I know a lot of people wanted a big, long macro game in Set 5 and while that would've been really cool I was on the edge of my seat because of how all-in MC was going. He was definitely going for broke and I think it made for a really spectacular end to a great series. Hope to see more MC v WhiteRa, they definitely show some of the best protoss games overall.
Should we not respect MC more for 2gate proxying in that match? As we've plainly established, this was no random strat pulled out of thin air to snag a quick win. This was a calculated decision to punish White-Ra for using the same opening build for the entire match up. How many of us would have actually even catch him doing that for 4 games straight and actively decide to use this information to blow him out of the water in the 5th match? Amazing game sense was at play here. Skill tipped the balance in MC's favor, not luck.
On April 15 2011 13:04 LynxSeba wrote: I think at the end is like this, mc won the tournament but if you ask me who was the better player overall the tournament White Ra takes that price.
Strongly disagree. The first two games it felt like MC was just playing some odd styles for showmanship sake when he could've easily 4-gated and won every set.
MC even said himself in an interview that 4-gate is mandatory on a map like Tal'Darim Altar with wide entrance, yet he tried to make a sentry play work just because he felt like it. Second game, same idea he could've easily pressured a lot harder on White-Ra's base since he saw the expo go up, but he wanted to show off some fancy blink play and very nearly pulled it off.
Okay the translation in the OP is really sloppy so I'll just redo it.
"I hope someone translates this and show it to foreigners who are talking shit about me. white-ra did the same build 5 times in a row and I just counted the build. You can't call that a cheese. He never made a zealot so that's why I proxy gated him. It was a $15000 game and that's how confident I was.
I'm a pro so I just played the winning game. Right now the flight was delayed so Huk Jinro and I are stuck in Turkey ㅠㅠ. I wanna go home
Fun fact. We came in without a visa but Huk decided to make one and wasted 200 bucks lol. Jinro even got scammed in sweden and today was just a shitty day."
Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
On April 15 2011 13:37 Washow wrote: Okay the translation in the OP is really sloppy so I'll just redo it.
"I hope someone translates this and show it to foreigners who are talking shit about me. white-ra did the same build 5 times in a row and I just counted the build. You can't call that a cheese. He never made a zealot so that's why I proxy gated him. It was a $15000 game and that's how confident I was.
I'm a pro so I just played the winning game. Right now the flight was delayed so Huk Jinro and I are stuck in Turkey ㅠㅠ. I wanna go home
Fun fact. We came in without a visa but Huk decided to make one and wasted 200 bucks lol. Jinro even got scammed in sweden and today was just a shitty day."
This translation was much better, not that great at korean but hey I can tell by reading it
And how excactly was Jinro Scammed? Did he buy shares in a dodgy company?
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
this isn't the 1960's. twitter/facebook/social media completely changes the interaction between professionals and their fans. you DO see tons of NFL pros clarifying situations that the media decides to make a story. you didn't see this 50 years ago, no, but its a different era. welcome to the internet.
edit: and what the hell is the point in making an analogy between a SC2 progamer and a football coach? why not make a more relevant comparison, say a BW progamer? and BW progamers often apologize and explain their plays to their cafes and blogs when netizens QQ.
I just can't help but find everything mc says and write sound egocentric. Maybe its the translations but he just seem so full of himself. No I don't think it was wrong of him to proxy, nor do I think that so many people were "talking shit about him". There will always be people who criticize and usually they are far fewer than the ones who don't. It takes someone like mc to get upset about a few insignificant people who did not like a proxy gate though.
On April 15 2011 13:46 VanGarde wrote: I just can't help but find everything mc says and write sound egocentric. Maybe its the translations but he just seem so full of himself. No I don't think it was wrong of him to proxy, nor do I think that so many people were "talking shit about him". There will always be people who criticize and usually they are far fewer than the ones who don't. It takes someone like mc to get upset about a few insignificant people who did not like a proxy gate though.
It's called confidence. If he was all unsure of himself, he'll receive more criticism.
On April 15 2011 13:46 VanGarde wrote: I just can't help but find everything mc says and write sound egocentric. Maybe its the translations but he just seem so full of himself. No I don't think it was wrong of him to proxy, nor do I think that so many people were "talking shit about him". There will always be people who criticize and usually they are far fewer than the ones who don't. It takes someone like mc to get upset about a few insignificant people who did not like a proxy gate though.
the entire reason boxer and mc wanted to do dreamhack was to spread esports to foreign fans. of course he's going to care about what americans and europeans think of him after he beats white-ra in the finals.
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
That absolutely makes no sense, your argument can only be valid if his moves were considered "hail-mary", and you push that brand onto his moves, which they aren't. By the own virtue of your argument, if 4gating a game deserves loss of respect, whitera went 4gate in first game while MC went 3-gate robo, oh no, should whitera's level of respect suddenly dwindle? And the 4th game, MC actually won it with blink stalkers, it wasn't exactly 4-gate all-in, not that it matters
It's interesting because the very people that criticize MC's games during the series are the very people who are consciously ignoring the strategic rationale and MC's explanations for them. If the games were to be re-observed, whitera did in fact go for same opening over and over again, it was a well calculated risk, but you totally ignore that consciously and insist as other haters/scrubs like yoruself, call it 'no skill' or 'hail mary' (in your case).
Branding things by yourself doesn't make it an factual statement.
It's like me branding you as a "fudge-packing faggot", doesn't mean it's true, but the connotations sure gives misleading implications.
There is NO CHEESE. If there is a definition of cheesy play....it would not come from a 2x GSL champion who held his status/reputation for dominating his opponents. From what starcraft 2 has shown since its release, players mechanics has less value. Which is evident from the number of upsets you see from foreigners over korean programers. Dare I say, that good strategic play cannot overcome the fact that a single miss click can cost you the game. SOOOO, before i continue to ramble on, this game looks more like poker than chess. Where you see many new faces at the final table every tournament in the WSOP. Which i think is bad direction for starcraft to take in general. You need a bonafide superstar to remind us that this is more a game of skill than luck. At this moment, the closest thing esports has is MC!
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
You know, it's really telling when you can't even name the builds MC used correctly and yet you still flame him to death (Hint: one of those "4-gates" was 3-gate blink stalkers). Your either have astounding ignorance of the game and of the PvP matchup or you are just completely blinded by your White-ra fanboyism. MC has every right to respond to his critics and his response only confirms what was obvious to the rest of the unbiased world: White-ra was opening greedily (for PvP) in EVERY game and once he realized it, MC made the best decisions possible to counter that style of play. Do you really expect white-ra to not be punished for doing so? There is nothing pathetic about playing to win the game.
I think I've seen all of MC's games on the GSL and when he is in a zone, he plays as if he was inside his opponent's head (MVP gives that impression when he's on, too). He knew White-Ra's build and scouting pattern and he punished him. And to do it with $15,000 on the line is incredible and I'm sure it was completely unexpected.
I just have one follow-up question for MC? Does it clink when you walk? Cause that's what balls of steel usually do.
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
You're a god damn idiot. Not only did White-Ra do the exact same # of 4-gates as MC, you don't even realize how 4-gating is the standard in PvP. If anything, I gained respect for MC for not using 4-gate more when the entire Korean ladder 4-gate's in 95%+ of the time in PvP.
It's not MC's fault that White-Ra went the same opening, not just in every one of the Dreamhack sets, but pretty much every TSL set. Doing a quick check of the TSL vods, White-Ra scouted after pylon only on set 1 of the TSL match. So in all of their official games (I think in the Dreamhack he always was scouting after gateway, but that's from memory and not checking so it could be wrong), that would be eight games in a row with pretty much the same opening and late scouting. Ra did build a zealot in set 2 of the TSL games, but I think that was the only one in the seven from a quick check and memory.
MC's build looks a lot like less of a gamble with all of that in mind. I remember thinking that MC's idea was pretty awesome as he completely outplayed Ra in terms of mindgames and series-play.
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
Anyone with half a brain and any sense of strategic planning in a BO5 can see that 2 gate proxy was the perfect strategy for MC to win the game. Given the previous 4 games and MC analyzing White-Ra's play throughout the series, doing anything else would have had a smaller chance of succeeding. In a PvP with everything down to the wire and 15k on the line what would you do? Would you go for the super volatile "standard" PvP that always seems to walk a razor thin line between winning and losing? Or would you go for the nearly guaranteed winning strategy that will crush your opponent?
I think this showcases MC's mindset as a true competitor and that isn't something that is deserving of less respect, it's something that makes him deserving of MORE respect. Seriously what the hell is this? There wasn't any controversy when Flash proxy rax'd Jaedong in their final OSL match that won Flash his golden mouse. Or when July canceled his second hatch and zergling/drone rushed Best in the game 2 of his golden mouse victory. Why is calculated, intelligent cheese suddenly something that is deserving of such resentment?
MC made a great read and had the balls to go through with it in a $15000 game. It was mind boggling and just plain embarrassing to read some of the comments in the LR thread following that.
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
You're a god damn idiot. Not only did White-Ra do the exact same # of 4-gates as MC, you don't even realize how 4-gating is the standard in PvP. If anything, I gained respect for MC for not using 4-gate more when the entire Korean ladder 4-gate's in 95%+ of the time in PvP.
Why do you feel the need to call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot? The man has a right to be disappointed by the games. I was disappointed as well, be it Blizzard's fault for the game, or MC's fault for refusing to attempt to play a game longer than 10 minutes.
Starcraft will stagnate as an E-spot if the "top" play produces games of this caliber.
MC made the right choice. White-Ra did the same opening every time, and MC knew it was forced cross spawns. It was a good strategic decision. White-Ra didn't know it was forced cross spawns, and scouted MC's base really late. If he had scouted MC's empty main earlier, things might have been different. Can't fault MC for that. He's a progamer. Gotta do what ya gotta do
MC won as the better player. I'd actually have more respect for him if he didn't realize white-ra's opening and did the cheese and won because that takes the most massive amount of courage with 15k on the line, still he did risky builds with massive confidence that he was certain would work and they did. Nobody has a perfect style/build. The way to beat your opponents is to take advantage of their weaknesses, especially at their level of competition.
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
You're a god damn idiot. Not only did White-Ra do the exact same # of 4-gates as MC, you don't even realize how 4-gating is the standard in PvP. If anything, I gained respect for MC for not using 4-gate more when the entire Korean ladder 4-gate's in 95%+ of the time in PvP.
Why do you feel the need to call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot? The man has a right to be disappointed by the games. I was disappointed as well, be it Blizzard's fault for the game, or MC's fault for refusing to attempt to play a game longer than 10 minutes.
Starcraft will stagnate as an E-spot if the "top" play produces games of this caliber.
He's probably more calling him an idiot for going as far as to "lose respect" for MC for doing stuff that WhiteRa did as well, and also for "losing respect" for someone when they do something that the entire friggin' PvP metagame revolves around right now. WhiteRa 4gated MC who wasn't 4gating in game 1. Why doesn't he lose respect for WhiteRa? MC also beat WhiteRa 3-0 in the TSL, and in two of those games MC didn't 4gate. Why doesn't he factor that into his opinion of MC? Uninformed opinions + double standards = asking to be called an idiot.
You also must realize that it's the design team's fault that PvP is a 4gate-fest. It's simply the most optimal build for both winning and preventing yourself from dying in PvP, and it's not the players's faults that they've figured that out.
Cheesing once in a while is fine, it's not like he's combatex and cannon rushes 100% of the time, all the time. Find me someone who wouldn't cheese for 15 grand.
I think I just basically repeated the whole thread, but it's true. We still love you MC, keep slaughtering nerds!
Play to win, I don't know why he responded like this though. Anyone who isn't stupid and has been competitive at anything in there life know this fundamental rule. No idea why everyone is even hating so much, MC played a complete blinder and gambled everything like that on such a fragile build. The reason MC is so good compared to alot of other players is because he is just so unpredictable, he will cannon rush you and proxy gate you. He will also play a straight up macro game. How can you even begin to prepare for someone so volatile?
MC's win was 100% legitimate, those who pmed me are just coward noobs who wont give their face because MC can kick their ass ON AND OFF the game.
tbh i feel the proxy was 100% expected on MC, side im kinda amzed white-ra dindt touhgt about the posibility of a proxy in a life or death (so to speak) game, but the winner deserved the win because of good insight in ur oponent, GJ MC gogo
You see a hole in your opponent game you take advantage, that's a strategic move, that's how RTS games are supposed to be played.... he saw White-Ra didnt got his zealot in any of those 4 games so he went for a proxy gate, perfect move ...It's how you play RTS games by looking and thinking what's wrong in your opponent play, what's he's weak spot.Let's all bm MC because White-Ra didnt scout he's base, didnt made a zealot first, didnt scout after pylon, didnt realized that they can only spawn crossed position.Last game White-Ra did everything bad it's not MC fault for that.
For all the MC haters questioning his professionalism, quick to defend their hero WhiteRa. Know this. MC, will compete in Korea, Sweden, NorthAmerica (NASL...ok I know he wont be there in person), or where ever else he is invited to. He is still in his teens and he already shown excellence in his play and his ability to overcome pressure (once suicide-toss). His response in twitter shows his true self that he does care what people think of him and that his "I will crush you" persona is all an act to hype the fans and antagonists alike. Maybe not responding at all in twitter might be acceptable to some, but he showed me that he does care about his fans and viewers of starcraft 2 in general. Not being available to scheduled games (NASL) and keeping your oppenent waiting for 4 hours after the event is quite un-professional.
I must be missing something...is there some other measurement of skill in a RTS game other than mechanics and strategy?
MC's mechanics > Ra's (MC's only an above average mechanical player, but Ra is pretty average (below average in Korean standards), and I'm sure that Ra would be the first person to tell you that).
MC's tactical/strategic skill vs. Ra - the last game shows that MC out-smarted Ra, or at the very least, read Ra better.
So tell me, what other measurement of skill are people using, when they point out that Ra is a superior player? The ability to do mindgames? The ability to perform better under pressure? Or the ability to perform better randomly because this game is so volatile? Last question is a joke, but I think the point is clear.
He won countering White-Ra's play just as he said. I can see why he did it, but as other people pointed out he certainly didn't need to respond. He has every right to play how he wants and employ the best strategy to win any tournament for any sum of money.
Fans of sc2 should respect his skill as he is a proven champion. It's not like it was unlikely that he was going to win...
I was there and i wanted White-Ra to win. But the rush was perfectly planned and there's nothing to say but congratulations MC. People who dislike rushes so much that they prefer that gamers avoid using the best strategies available can go watch the harlem globetrotters. Playing to win is what i consider really pro, not avoiding stuff cause of the whiny parts of the community.
As MC said in an interview, MC will try to NOT 4gate in maps where you can forcefield your ramp with 1 forcefield. He also claimed that in a map where you cant forcefield your ramp, 4gate is a NECESSITY. This is why he 4gates EVERY TIME on maps like Crevasse.
2 gate proxy has been a standard Protoss opening for a decade. White-ra didn't scout that section of his base at all. Being a creative Protoss player himself, I'm sure he has seen this play before (pylon below cliff).
Early all in play (called cheese by some) has always been a part of starcraft and professional tournament play.
In case you havn't seen it. marine/scv all in by Boxer in the finals
On April 15 2011 14:55 Xirroh wrote: 2 gate proxy has been a standard Protoss opening for a decade. White-ra didn't scout that section of his base at all. Being a creative Protoss player himself, I'm sure he has seen this play before (pylon below cliff).
Early all in play (called cheese by some) has always been a part of starcraft and professional tournament play.
The hate is rediculous. How can u blame a man for taking advantage of an obvious situation? This is for money!!!! You don't play for a good showing, or to do some crazy shit. Or play every game a 45 macro game, you play to win no matter how!
There will always be trolls in this case especially because white-ra is involved and he has so many fanboys. But objectively I want to say to any of the MC haters that they should really learn to love the cheese. In this situation I thought it was awesome actually. 4 reasonably long (atleast for pvp) games, 4gates, coutners to 4gates, some amazing play. and in the last game, for 15,000$, MC has the balls and metagame sense to pull of that proxy. I mean did you see how close white-ra's scout probe was to seeing the pylon? perfect placement, perfect timing, perfect execution, and in the final game of the final match. I was watching, and while I sort of understand the sentiment of wanting a long epic game for the finals, it was a suspenseful albeit short game, and I actually found it very entertaining. Would you have been happier to see another 4gate for the final game? It was a perfect time to mix in a proxy to his otherwise outstanding standard pvp, and we should appreciate it for what it is. I guess what im saying, is that when the cheese is that good, EMBRACE THE CHEESE.
When Jaedong 4pooled Flash twice in their finals, I remember him saying in an interview that he got a lot of hate from his (Korean)fans.
It's a bit of a different situation here though, considering that it's PvP, and MC only cheesed 1 out of 5 games. There's absolutely nothing here worth criticizing.
Do these people not play this game at all? I mean seriouslly sometimes I hear this stuff and it is just so incredibly silly. I was down on MC for his play style, but now that I hear people constantly qq at him, screw that I'm totally behind him. Dude deserves his wins really. He may not always win with his style, but now he is so people need to get off his back about it.
Word. You don't have to like MC. You don't have to like his playstyle. You don't have to like his personality. You don't have to think he's the best player in the world. You can think he's overrated. You can call him boring. But if you think he's just a lucky, skill-less cheeser then you simply don't understand the game. Rooting for white-ra and other foreigners is fine, but you can cheer for them without being bm.
Good tweet. He seems like a programmer genuinely concerned about his image with the foreign fan base. I also think he summarized it very well in just a few lines: "Do the same thing 5 times in a row, you're going to get countered".
I like his (sometimes comical) self-confidence. It shows he is always playing what he thinks is his best chance to win. If the (arguably) best player in the world says that BO has the biggest chance of taking it down, who are we to say he's wrong?
I don't think MC should bother answering to all the trolls and haters out there, he really has nothing to explain. A win is a win and it is your job as a progamer to win.
On April 15 2011 15:10 gostunv wrote: Especially when they have blind racial bias. and by race i dont mean toss.
That is true I didn't even watch the games, let alone know of scores Reading all the info given, I think that what MC did was right, and all the haters haven't invested in their brains Everything that needs to be said has been said in the thread, read it. Enough QQ
People are actually arguing that white-ra should have won that? Even white-ra surely knows that he deserved to lose if MC 4gated. He didnt take the steps necessary to prevent it.
I'm sad that MC felt the need to respond to people being idiots. MC played that last game very intelligently, WhiteRa's opening is so fragile to any sort of cheese why wouldn't he abuse that? Watching that series made me really enjoy MC as a player. He came back and played very intelligently from a deficit and that takes a lot of mental fortitude to keep yourself together and bring it all back from being on the break point of losing. Congrats to him, I wish people would stop raging so much, it brings us all down when we should be picking others up and supporting them.
Why arent people flaming White-ra for making his scheduled opponent, who woke up at 4am, wait 4 hours and not a single word from him. Now I can understand if his opponent was someone like Idra, but this was July fuckin god who deserves the utmost respect from a garbage player like ra who hasnt accomplished anything meaningful ever in his entire career. Must be nice to have ignorant fanboys defend him like hes Jesus. Ra got owned fair and square by MC so get over it. When someone face rolls for 5 straight games doing the same thing over and over again you take advantage.
You got to do whatever it takes to win if I could cannon rush every single game and crush tournaments for thousands and thousands of dollars I'd do that shit every time. That being said MC is one of the best players in the world right now and it was a great tournament with great games so I don't feel robbed at all because he won a game with a proxy gate.It was still super exciting to watch any way though i know it was a tough loss for White-ra and I was rooting for him. But at the end of the day I wanna see the best play there best and play to win and thats what it came down to and if that turns out to be an epic 50 minute slug fest all the better.
On April 15 2011 16:04 jyLee wrote: Why arent people flaming White-ra for making his scheduled opponent, who woke up at 4am, wait 4 hours and not a single word from him. Now I can understand if his opponent was someone like Idra, but this was July fuckin god who deserves the utmost respect from a garbage player like ra who hasnt accomplished anything meaningful ever in his entire career. Must be nice to have ignorant fanboys defend him like hes Jesus. Ra got owned fair and square by MC so get over it. When someone face rolls for 5 straight games doing the same thing over and over again you take advantage.
Nice to hear he doesn't pull a Rain. (Rain did a ton of 1 basing in GSL 3 and apologized for making it to the finals that way). He just stands his ground and says it straight up. Really strong of him.
On one hand for everyone that's fine with it, I can assume that it's annoying to have this topic come up so often but there will always be a hot debate. If it can help a lot of people change their perspective on the matter atleast to the point where we all understand eachother and there's not a lot to argue about that would be well worth the time.
So to that end, with a hand on my heart I urge or even challenge every single person who feels like it wasn't fun to watch, or it was cheesy or any other negative way towards either of the competitors involved in the Dreamhack finals to take 5 minutes, yes only 5 minutes and read this:
I'm also gonna take the liberty of qouting the perfect passage out of it. I'm aware many people already know this but it has only recently come to my attention and I'm gonna order the paperback because I feel attached and it's written in a good and funny manner.
"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)
Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.
Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter."
What's really sad about white-ra's loss the 5th map is that he didn't seem to know that it was the fixed shakuras with only cross positions .. he went to scout close positions, had he know it was only spawning cross he would probably scout inside his base and the game would've gone completely differently t_t
You guys forget something, White-Ra wouldn't like people flaming MC for this either. If White-Ra knew that MC was going 13 gate and cheesed, then MC fans might've been mad. This is just a simple thing, White-Ra did some risky builds and lost to them. He didn't scout properly and BARELY missed the pylon.
I'm platinum and I scan for Proxy Pylons before this mark myself, I have time before I build my Barracks of about 7-9 seconds I'd have seen it, as a Toss, I spread my pylons around, I'd have seen it.
I pride myself at being good vs Cheese because I do scout it. MC, and White-Ra are pretty awesome about this and remember MC even said to all the people in Sweden that he wishes Korean fans would be more like them.
Also, it's PvP expect short games, just like ZvZ. These two have the shortest mirrors often. Don't hate don't complain.
On April 15 2011 17:11 chokke wrote: White-ra shoud take som self critisim aswell for not scouting. It cost so little to make sure no funky buisniss is going on.
This, if White-Ra had scouted after the pylon he would have seen MC's early probe go up his ramp, countering the cheese. I really felt bad for him in that moment, and I didn't understand why he wouldn't scout at that time, as far as I remember he had mixed it up throughout all the games no?
Also, what's up with the players not knowing that you can only scout on cross positions? Everyone failed at this, except MC in the last game. Did no one announce this to them or what the hell happened?
Really sad for the outcome, the final game was really anti-climactic for some of the viewers.
I'm sure Whitera was pissed after that match but I don't think even he would want an "apology" from MC. You play to win and it was so close that whitera didnt scout them and instantly won right. It was bad luck for Whitera and good play from MC.
It's sad that MC even has to make these stupid comments. He won.
I'm saddened that people were upset enough to force this response from MC. Honestly, MC picked a strategy that's good in a certain situation. Was it cheese? I'd say no, ironically. Cheese implies a build that relies on luck and the under preparedness of your opponent.
MC quite obviously looked at a weakness in WhiteRa's build, and picked something that, although relying on WhiteRa not preparing, was quite clearly well-thought out with very little luck involved.
I swear, I hope that after another year most of this cheese and imbalance talk has worked its way out of the community. It's incredibly frustrating for top players to be told that they're winning only due to unfair strategies or races (or so I assume).
The reason WhiteRa didn't scout is because the build is specifically tailored to be optimal in probe production. His build allows him to continuously chronoboost AND put the gateway down on 13, without breaking probe production. You can't do this if you send a probe to scout after the pylon, as you miss out by 15 or so minerals, causing your probe production to halt for a few seconds (while the nexus is being chronoboosted as well). It's not a huge difference but in WhiteRa's mind, it was a 4 player map and MC hadn't cheesed before, it was perfectly acceptable for him to go for this slightly greedy build order.
Either way MC won, WhiteRa lost. Even though he didn't know it was altered to a 2 player map, life goes on.
That is why I just really want tournaments and blizzard to just agree on something have a unified mappool for most big tournaments and maybe ladder.
I mean we have the old shakuras, is there a version of it that enforces cross-spawns? Then we have the new version with normal spawns, one with cross-spawns only, the MLG version, but then ESL has their own version of it, if I'm right tsl also has their own version of it (or they use the mlg one).
And that is only one map, it's the same thing with metal/etc and now in NASL a very old version of Tal'darim.
Ofcourse, in this case there isn't anyone to blaim except for White-ra, and he is a really smart guy so he most likely realizes that himself.
But if I were a pro I would be getting pretty annoyed at these 4-5 different version of every map, and constantly having to check what the version is for that tournament instead of just saying, oké we play on shakuras, and that 's it.
even in the weekly online cups it's getting a bit messy with all these different versions.
You can't blame the fans and MC. Mc doing it for money and fans was mad for having a horrible ending (it was 2-2 and ended up with a cheese). Money is on the line, what do you expect? Well i also think the fans just didn't expect him to do that because of his overbearing arrogance but its the way he plays.
Nothing wrong with cheesing, ever. The cheesee just needs to react better, not play so greedy or scout earlier. That being said, what annoyed me mostly about that game was that White-ra, like many other pro players, didn't know which map they were playing on and scouted a position that wasn't possible to spawn at.
Map makers/tournaments really need to fix this, make it quite clear in which positions players can actually spawn, since it's such a shit advantage, especially like in this case where MC knew it but Whitera didn't. Fx. it might be possible that White-ra believed it was a "3 position map"(norm Shakuras, where your opponent can spawn on either cross or same side) and making him not expect cheese, like one doesn't really on 4player maps.
I respect MCs decision to play mind-games with Whitera in the final game. Whitera uses the same build in PvP all the time and MC decided to punish him for it. MC played to win. As a spectator and a fan I am obviously disappointed that the finals weren't as epic as I had wanted but you cant really blame either MC or Whitera for playing to win. 15000$ is a lot of money and if you know you can end the game with something like proxy gates when you know your opponent is preparing to be 4gated then why not take the chance.
White-Ra played one dimensional and MC countered it, theres nothing wrong in it and people flaming MC are just butthurt. Glad that MC is taking it so lightly and even making a tweet about it
Rofl nice foreign bronze leaguers hating on the pros as usual. Good MC has confidence enough to show that many foreign fans whine is ruining alot of otherwise good attitude.
If I look at this thread I cannot help to think who the hell these people were that were BMing MC ?
He's probably more pissed off to be stuck on an airport in Turkey. As soon as he's back in Korea he'll realize he's got another win, more cash in his pocket and a totally hot gf. Twitter is such a tool for drama.
Finding flaws in your opponent's build and adapting your play in an efficient way to gain an advantage should not even be considered cheese. It shows how smart of a player MC is, and this is coming from someone who admires WhiteRa.
Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
On April 15 2011 17:23 Piski wrote: I'm sure Whitera was pissed after that match but I don't think even he would want an "apology" from MC. You play to win and it was so close that whitera didnt scout them and instantly won right. It was bad luck for Whitera and good play from MC.
It's sad that MC even has to make these stupid comments. He won.
If WhiteRa is as pro as I think he is he was only pissed at himself, for failing such an easy rush. Late scouting, wrong scouting, no zealot, risky build repeated over and over, it was all on his play. If anything he should have expected this in games 4-5. You should ask him if you ever get the chance, I'm pretty sure that's what he'd answer you. He's been playing pro games for too long to actually react like a scrub when he's getting countered so well.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
If you want to see fake competitions, go watch wrestling or something. I am tired of these comments, sc would really lose its appeal to me if players would prefer to please the crowd over winning.
Most extraordinary feats are so amazing because they are done in a competitive environment and not in show games.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
Yeah cause winning isn't the main goal for a professional. Any professional sports player knows it's all about appeasing to the whiny fans... I really don't understand how this is even a argument.
They are pro players, they play to win! Everyone who bmed would have cheesed their ass off if they could earn 15k. I'd cheese so hard and ask if you would like some wine with it. It wasn't a total risky cheese either he just countered how whitera played each game.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
But.. He knew that White-Ra did the same thing in the first four games.. If he had done it in the first or second set, he wouldn't have known if White-Ra was doing it every game, and thus it would have been much more risky.
Reminds me of Boxers 3x Bunkerrush finals against Yellow. That was 3 games in a row Bunkerrush. I think the Dreamhackfinals were amazing compared to that.
On April 15 2011 17:32 DarkRise wrote: You can't blame the fans and MC. Mc doing it for money and fans was mad for having a horrible ending (it was 2-2 and ended up with a cheese). Money is on the line, what do you expect? Well i also think the fans just didn't expect him to do that because of his overbearing arrogance but its the way he plays.
I actually found it was one of the more entertaining series. Tied and so masterfully won by MC. The pro games aren't all in how they click, I'm sure there's plenty more that can click as fast/as well as them, there's more entertainment in how the actually make decisions since that's the one thing amateurs don't really do or have to do. Remember this was the final game of 3 series, 1 in Team WC, 3 in TSL, 5 in DH, MC didn't just cheese, he outplayed, in the entire sense of the word play when it comes to pro SC2 not just master league play.
As sad as I am that White-ra lost, MC has a point and he won fair and square. I attribute using the same strategy over and over again to the fact that White-Ra had no time to prepare an alternative one against MC, hence he did what he was most confident in doing. Whatever it is, White-ra showed us some amazing games and I hope that next time he will win.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
It's not like if he didn't proxy gate we'd see amazing creative play. It is a PvP, almost everytime only thing you can see is 4gate and Colossus. He saw the opportunity, and went for it. It's legit. If WhiteRa wasn't making a zealot as he said, he should take advantage of it. This is his job, and money is on the line.
The most amazing PvP I've watched was I think in Assembly game, Adelscott vs I think Naniwa(or HuK? can't remember) It was a game on Shakuras and Adelscott player brilliant, flanking the opposition Protoss in his own base and ending the game with double prong attacks.
It's not that we say that it was a 50% gamble from MC.Ofc it wasn't,he scouted this weakness in white ra's play from the 4 previous games. But it's just like for a kick boxer who is about to start a championship match,he studies his opponent and see that he has a bad,broken 2 times knee,so he aims for that knee in the match. Is it calculated?Yes.Will he get the title and the money if he do that?Probably yes.Is it fair to exploy it?Imo no. There's the difference.Imo players of MC's caliber shouldn't have to resort to such strategies,even if their life depends on it.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
I'm not mad at MC, but I'm mad at a game that favor this kind of play style (not talking about the proxy gate, but the overall warp gate all in that made MC what he is), sorry for all the fanboyz out there who just can't bear that someone critisize their MC "Bosstoss" cocky playstyle.
What in the everloving FUCK? Those assholes were BMing him over it directly?
It was bad enough when you all complained about the proxy in the heat of the moment in the LR thread. The fact that you mouthbreathers didn't understand why MC did it and why it was awesome I can accept, but when you actually berate MC for playing risky and stupid when he did the exact opposite you should all be banned from this community for life. Even if he HAD won without earning it that's still no excuse for acting like a bunch of self-entitled assholes.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
On April 15 2011 19:19 Steveling wrote: It's not that we say that it was a 50% gamble from MC.Ofc it wasn't,he scouted this weakness in white ra's play from the 4 previous games. But it's just like for a kick boxer who is about to start a championship match,he studies his opponent and see that he has a bad,broken 2 times knee,so he aims for that knee in the match. Is it calculated?Yes.Will he get the title and the money if he do that?Probably yes.Is it fair to exploy it?Imo no. There's the difference.Imo players of MC's caliber shouldn't have to resort to such strategies,even if their life depends on it.
How is that in any way a fair comparison? It's more like MC notices that WR always lets his guard down when he goes for a kick so MC throws a punch when he sees it incoming, knocking WR out. WR chose his own build order and not to scout his own base. He only has himself to blame.
On April 15 2011 19:19 Steveling wrote: It's not that we say that it was a 50% gamble from MC.Ofc it wasn't,he scouted this weakness in white ra's play from the 4 previous games. But it's just like for a kick boxer who is about to start a championship match,he studies his opponent and see that he has a bad,broken 2 times knee,so he aims for that knee in the match. Is it calculated?Yes.Will he get the title and the money if he do that?Probably yes.Is it fair to exploy it?Imo no. There's the difference.Imo players of MC's caliber shouldn't have to resort to such strategies,even if their life depends on it.
Why "shouldn't he have to resort to such strategies, even if their life depends on it?'
WTF. This thread makes my brain hurt.
I have a feeling a lot of the people who are BMing him don't come from a BW background or have watched professional BW at all. It was the competitive and do-anything-to-win type of mentality that was why BW was and still is so successful in Korea (only true e-sports with a regular league + sponsorship, etc.).
What is less entertaining than two dudes putting everything on the line, to scratch and claw to, putting their blood and pride on the line to become victorious?
If you want a friendly match where they are lovely dovey with each other + be cute and have guaranteed macro games then you can pay these players to do a show match.
On April 15 2011 19:19 Steveling wrote: There's the difference.Imo players of MC's caliber shouldn't have to resort to such strategies,even if their life depends on it.
That's like saying the Lakers in the finals game 7 against Celtics and the score is in favor of the Lakers 80-60 with 2 mintues left in the game. And then Phil Jackson saying 'hey, let's make this a game to remember for the audience - who cares about our championship, ; we'll let the Celtics score 20 in a row on us without us playing defense; that way, we can give Kobe the ball for the last shot when it is 80-80 just to make it exciting'.
According to your logic, I mean, Kobe will make the last shot for sure 100%, so might as well make it exciting for everyone. 'A player of his caliber shouldn't have to resort to running out the clock (because they have a 20 point lead) and playing lame, even if their life depends on it.'
I bet it was his coach who made the observation and told MC to proxy gate. Everyone should get a coach like that who gives him advice between every game.
On April 15 2011 19:41 StarBrift wrote: Who are these ridiculous fanboys that BM MC for winning games? God people need to calm down and take a good look at themselves sometimes.
Should have seen the live report thread, it was not nice lol. Think about 10pages every 30sec of crap the moment the cheese started.
LOL MC is such a cool guy. Making fun of Huk for spending 200bucks while him and Jinro got away with it Play to win. Baffling how anyone can hold that against anyone, baffling.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
all i can say is that it's downright shameful for the entire community that a professional like mc was taking so much heat for a game that he had to tweet an apologetic phrase about it.
the players are growing in both skills and stage presence, organizers are sweating their asses off to bring professionalism to tournaments, sponsors are taking a gamble on the scene because they have faith in the public, so i think it's high time the community grows the fuck up already.
On April 15 2011 19:32 Aylear wrote: What in the everloving FUCK? Those assholes were BMing him over it directly?
It was bad enough when you all complained about the proxy in the heat of the moment in the LR thread. The fact that you mouthbreathers didn't understand why MC did it and why it was awesome I can accept, but when you actually berate MC for playing risky and stupid when he did the exact opposite you should all be banned from this community for life. Even if he HAD won without earning it that's still no excuse for acting like a bunch of self-entitled assholes.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
Fucking hell.
Look at yourself man. There were like 5-6 guys insulting MC at best, and they got what they deserved: they were banned. But the rest were just saying MC did not deserved it, if you just can't understand their point of view, then you are the one who should calm yourself.
I'm happy he doesn't adopt an apologetic stance imo.
It was more like Listen you noobs. It was not cheese. It was a calculated move and i'll tell your inferior brains why it was so and be happy that i did.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
honestly that spits in the face of competition itself. the viewers tune in to watch the competition, not watch a "show". this is starcraft not the WWE.
im personally a bit disgusted that MC is being BM''ed over this. he did nothing wrong. he actually did everything right.
On April 15 2011 19:19 Steveling wrote: It's not that we say that it was a 50% gamble from MC.Ofc it wasn't,he scouted this weakness in white ra's play from the 4 previous games. But it's just like for a kick boxer who is about to start a championship match,he studies his opponent and see that he has a bad,broken 2 times knee,so he aims for that knee in the match. Is it calculated?Yes.Will he get the title and the money if he do that?Probably yes.Is it fair to exploy it?Imo no. There's the difference.Imo players of MC's caliber shouldn't have to resort to such strategies,even if their life depends on it.
Look it is just common sense. If one player cuts back on early game defense for the price of more minerals and the other one plays a safe opening the first player will obviously get a huge advantage unless the second player decides to exploit it. People who claim MC was gambling with his early agression should realise that it was infact White-Ra who was gambling with his greedy style. Saying stuff like MC is so good he shouldn't need to to something is idiocy when he is fairly sure he can't beat White-Ra after midgame because of his mineral advantage unless White-Ra makes mistakes. Do you think MC says to himself, I know he cuts back on defense to get the advantage lategame, but I am good enough so I'm gonna play my safe style and try to take on one of the best european protosses despite his advantage with 15000$ on the line. No, he thinks either he himself cuts back on defense which is risky if White-Ra decides to be agressive so he does not want do that. Instead obviously he chooses to exploit White-Ra's week build.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
Certainly a huge number, and i'd go so far as to say the majority following sc2, can still appreciate the game when players do anything they can to win. If a football game ends in 1-0 do you boo the players off for not scoring more?
According to your logic, I mean, Kobe will make the last shot for sure 100%, so might as well make it exciting for everyone. 'A player of his caliber shouldn't have to resort to running out the clock (because they have a 20 point lead) and playing lame, even if their life depends on it.'
Yes,that's exactly what I'm saying. eg,Yeah Inter won the Champions League(most prestigious football cup in the world) last year,cause they played the most boring ass,defensively football I've ever seen against Barcelona, a freakingly good team,one of the best ever existed.Well woopdy doo for Inter and the lame show they presented.Same goes for MC.
On April 15 2011 19:19 Steveling wrote: It's not that we say that it was a 50% gamble from MC.Ofc it wasn't,he scouted this weakness in white ra's play from the 4 previous games. But it's just like for a kick boxer who is about to start a championship match,he studies his opponent and see that he has a bad,broken 2 times knee,so he aims for that knee in the match. Is it calculated?Yes.Will he get the title and the money if he do that?Probably yes.Is it fair to exploy it?Imo no. There's the difference.Imo players of MC's caliber shouldn't have to resort to such strategies,even if their life depends on it.
The analogy is just retarded. Not scouting and not making the first zealot is in no way comparable to abusing a opponents injury. It's like Shogun vs Machida in the UFC.
Shogun reasearched and noticed that Machida didn't protect the sides of his head well while attacking, Shogun practiced for it and knocked Machida out using the knowledge gained from analyzing the previous match. Should Shogun keep from using vital information that could win him the match? NO.
Seems like people want long macro games EVERY match and if someone decides to rush based on statistics and a certain playing style it's always bad.
Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
According to your logic, I mean, Kobe will make the last shot for sure 100%, so might as well make it exciting for everyone. 'A player of his caliber shouldn't have to resort to running out the clock (because they have a 20 point lead) and playing lame, even if their life depends on it.'
Yes,that's exactly what I'm saying. eg,Yeah Inter won the Champions League(most prestigious football cup in the world) last year,cause they played the most boring ass,defensively football I've ever seen against Barcelona, a freakingly good team,one of the best ever existed.Well woopdy doo for Inter and the lame show they presented.Same goes for MC.
As someone else said, why don't people like you just keep to watching wrestling or the globetrotters? You seem to dislike smart play. Inter couldn't win unless they played a very defensive against the best team in the world, they followed their tactic through and won. Good for them.
Not all matches can be loads of goals and offensive play. Every game need some variation and change.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
the players are playing to win.
they aren't professional entertainers, they are here to win money and nothing else.
if terrible strategies are effective enough to win at the highest of levels, then the only one to blame is blizzard.
On April 15 2011 19:59 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
If this is true, then you were the one starting it anyway. So who cares?
Seems like the anti-MC group adopted a 4chan mentality: "I don't like ______ and neither should anyone else!" In this case, cheese (or you know, "strategy").
People who think sports should be played purely to entertain the fans show that they definitely don't watch speculator sports enough (or at all). But I suppose with the younger generation that grows up with a "Hollywood" mentality expect everything to be climatic and story-like.
On April 15 2011 19:59 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
Can the OP or moderator update the translation? A few words here and there make all the difference.
In my opinion, spectator in sports is the byproduct of genuine competitiveness among players. That means highest quality of play and impalpable decision making will naturally draw interests because we mortals cannot ever hope (unless you practice a lot! ) to understand and do the same. This is especially true in Brood War, because just the sheer mechanics these guys exhibit are simply ridiculous.
On April 15 2011 19:59 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
On April 15 2011 19:59 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
Since he doesn't speak english I wouldn't be surprised if huk, jinro etc. were in the background egging him on/telling him what to bm in his engrish. But that's besides the point. Chat bm has nothing to do with whether his strategy in g5 was "wrong" or whatever. I'm sure MC can handle chat bm, any pro should, but fan ignorance might rile him a tad more.
There was like five guys complaining about it in the live report thread when it happened, so ofcourse there's gotta be 40 pages of people being upset, defending MC, talking about the meaning or RTS games, and now MC himself has to defend himself on twitter. Christ just let it go. People are gonna be upset at the moment when their hero loses 2-3 to a proxy. BTW it seems like MC's changing his mind about Sweden ^^
Edit. There seem to be some of people who've never heard of such things as sports, tournaments and competition before. Seems like too many of you are expecting an American wrestling match, with long epic dialogues, insults, and tables smashed over peoples heads. Get over yourself. This is a cometetive game, and people play to win, not to do something fancy. If they didn't play to win, this would never ever be considered an E-sport or be televized. It's just bad. Name one popular sport with a generally educated audiance that is just for the show, and not about the competetion. There is none and guess why. Because it's boring to watch, because you know none of the parties are even trying to win. It's like pitting toddlers in an MMA game. If you don't like the competetive nature of starcraft, please don't complain and BM the players. Go play world of warcraft or some other game without exciting elements to it instead.
On April 15 2011 13:38 aurum510 wrote: Kind of unprofessional by MC honestly. Do you see a coach apologizing for calling a hail-mary play in football on the last play of the game? No.
Do I feel his last 3 games vs white-ra were pathetic allins? Yes. Do I think he should tweet about it to the world? No, because he's just feeding the trolls. Whatever happens happens. Did I lose tons of respect for MC for 4 gating 2 of the last 3 games when cutting probes at 20 and proxy 2-gating the last game? Sure, but seeing him respond to vocal people just makes me even lose more respect for him.
You're a god damn idiot. Not only did White-Ra do the exact same # of 4-gates as MC, you don't even realize how 4-gating is the standard in PvP. If anything, I gained respect for MC for not using 4-gate more when the entire Korean ladder 4-gate's in 95%+ of the time in PvP.
Why do you feel the need to call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot? The man has a right to be disappointed by the games. I was disappointed as well, be it Blizzard's fault for the game, or MC's fault for refusing to attempt to play a game longer than 10 minutes.
Starcraft will stagnate as an E-spot if the "top" play produces games of this caliber.
The same way pro-BW has stagnated? There's always gonna be proxy gates and 6 pools. They're used to throw people off their game or punish greedy play and they have their place in a long series of games between two players.
It's like telling Andy Roddick not to serve too fast because winning points of serves is "cheap" or some stupid shit like that.
On April 15 2011 19:59 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
So you're not going to post the replay or even a screenshot, thus leaving your story with 0 credibility? Cool story there!
More than likely it would probably be MC having giggles pretending to be HuK. You also have to understand that MC/Jinro/HuK are great friends and any one of them would definitely give you shit if you badmouth the other.
Actually this is definitely a game that WhiteRa lost not a win by MC. EDIT: i'm not saying MC played bad, i'm just saying that it was a good move by MC and it was a really bad play by Ra. Not making a first zealot and (most importantly) not expecting a proxy from the most proxied race ever is too thoughtless. Anytime i play vs protoss i do a job of searching for the hidden probe/pylon/gateway/nexus/expo at my natural up and running i blame blizzard for that though.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
Lol this is exactly the problem i mentioned in my last post. Come on now, Soccer players run out the clock all the time, and there are still tons of sponsors because people want to see the game played. It's just the same as any other real sport, the players play to win, not to please the crowd. What you want is scripted matches where players always play for the long macro games? That's simply absurd and that would kill of sponsors, money, and players much quicker than playing to win would.
Good Job MC! Congrats to your win. Don't listen to the nerd haters...they will never have a gf or good life, they are poor individuals. But you are a great with a great personality and skill in starcraft! stay as you are. you got a Fan!!
When I read some of these posts I think we should make a WWE equivalent of SC2. All very exiting macro games with lots of drama and turnarounds, but in the end totally rigged to maximize entertainment.
And of course all the contestants are required to wear spandex and wax their chest.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
Yes i want esports to be appreciated for what it is and not be molded by the perverse views of "fans" who want pros to make a show rather than to sport.
Executes a Strat Perfectly - Check Read Whitera like a book - Check Shows Immense Balls to execute a Now or Never Cheese with 15,000$ on the Line - Check Comes back from 2-0 Down - Check
But the game didn"t go past the 20 min game , so MC doesn"t deserve it.TL does my head in Somedays. The bias here is Ridiculous.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
the players are playing to win.
they aren't professional entertainers, they are here to win money and nothing else.
if terrible strategies are effective enough to win at the highest of levels, then the only one to blame is blizzard.
cheese sucks.
Yeah Blizzard needs to learn to scout the base better and not lose to cheap strategies. RAWR!
Anyone that is criticizing mc for winning the way he did is just an idiot, Sc2 is a competative e-sport and being 1st is really all that matters even more so in a winner takes all tourny. You really think mc would have 4 gated and mabey lost if he knew he had a very high chance of winning by doing a proxy? In the end white-ra lost the game by not scouting it.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
This train of thought is the most unreasonable, detrimental thing to esports. "PRO"s should play the game to WIN. NOT to please the crowd.
No crowd, no viewers, no viewers no money from sponsors, then no players. Still think they shouldn't appeal the crowd? Do you think that if the game becomes boring it will have as many viewers and followers? Don't think so.
Still, a big part of the fault is not the players' but blizzards' for making boring strategies effective.
Lol this is exactly the problem i mentioned in my last post. Come on now, Soccer players run out the clock all the time, and there are still tons of sponsors because people want to see the game played. It's just the same as any other real sport, the players play to win, not to please the crowd. What you want is scripted matches where players always play for the long macro games? That's simply absurd and that would kill of sponsors, money, and players much quicker than playing to win would.
Should just stick to wrestling for scripted matches
On April 15 2011 19:59 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
Everyone has a certain type of game they'd like to see. Some people love TvT, some hate it. "Cheese" is just one of the many terms that people use in an attempt to create logical reasons why all games should be played the way they like to see them played.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
Yeah cause winning isn't the main goal for a professional. Any professional sports player knows it's all about appeasing to the whiny fans... I really don't understand how this is even a argument.
it s an opion smarty, not an argument. I dislike MC, not because he wants to win, his behaviour annoys me, his choice of builds annoy me.
It is entertainmet, i have the right to hate on a football team which plays defense twice 90+5 minutes in the Champions league to pass with a combined score of 1-0 or 1-1 with scoring a goal on the hometeams field. They do it because they want money, it's understandable, but dont ask then all the viwers to support and like that team, because it managed to win. No, fans have the right to trash on play that they dislike, that's how it works.
Basketball teams hack a shaq. Aim for a player with 3 or more fouls so they will get foul-out. Harass the hell out of Dwight Howard so he get techical fouls.
Football(Soccer) team run out the clock. Do strategic foulings. "Park the bus to protect a 1-0 lead" Mourinho's Inter purposely did not want the ball against Barcelona because it is easier to defend that way and have like 20 percent possession the whole game
Note that these are element of the games allowed by the rules and structure of the game. Just like MC's proxy gate was. Not something illegal like performance enhancing drugs. It was not like MC was stream-cheating/maphacking/listening to the commentators. These guys do what it takes to win within the framework of the game regardless of how entertaining it is for the spectator and that is why they are appreciated. And i don't see football and basketball losing popularity any time soon.
On April 15 2011 19:59 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Lol, MC is very arrogant in my eyes. When he was in Sweden, I met him on ladder (he was playing on Jinros Account). He first told me he was HuK because he was playing Protoss. Then he asked me if I know MC. I answered 'yes' and told him that I dont like MC. Then he started flaming me with "fuck you" and other stuff. Then I flamed a bit back ofc and we had a little flame war. So, is this professional?? MC is bm himself so he shouldn't be surprised when other people bm him, too.
And before you ask, yes it was MC. Hotkeys perfectly match and when I asked the real HuK he confirmed me MC was playing on Jinros Account. I still have the rep but I think I get banned if I post it^^.
I for one found that last game highly suspensful and exciting.. but I can see how some people were unhappy about the game and/or result. That's fine. Or even people going on twitter to flame him, I mean it's childish but I'm sure he's able to take it, and in a way it's great that fans got so fired up about starcraft 2.
What's really stupid is people saying it was bad for starcraft as an e-sport that MC successfully cheesed in ONE game.
I was cheering for WhiteRa but that ending for the series was delicious drama. The proxy was a bullshit tactic and it was awesome because of that. It just makes the whole series more memorable.
On April 15 2011 20:52 myasQo wrote: Another proof that koreans can't beat europe with macro style.
No, another proof MC is really good. Go play some tournaments for your own league level, where you do more than BO1s and you'll see where cheese fits.
And MC did Idra pretty good on one of the most fun PvZs. And it was ... gasp ... macro.
On the other hand someone should ask WhiteRa who he was pissed at after he lost, you'd see you're making the wrong assumptions, you're being upset while the players themselves think otherwise.
The day an idiot adds some 10 min early game macro rule to their tournament is the day I'll view that tournament as child's play, not worthy of attention or not showing any skill. a-moving a 200 army is not skill. Mind fucking your opponent is.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
Yeah cause winning isn't the main goal for a professional. Any professional sports player knows it's all about appeasing to the whiny fans... I really don't understand how this is even a argument.
it s an opion smarty, not an argument. I dislike MC, not because he wants to win, his behaviour annoys me, his choice of builds annoy me.
It is entertainmet, i have the right to hate on a football team which plays defense twice 90+5 minutes in the Champions league to pass with a combined score of 1-0 or 1-1 with scoring a goal on the hometeams field. They do it because they want money, it's understandable, but dont ask then all the viwers to support and like that team, because it managed to win. No, fans have the right to trash on play that they dislike, that's how it works.
Except you don't hate your favorite football team when they do the same. You praise their great play. It's basic sports fan behaviour. And trust me, the fans of the team you dislike do the same. It's nothing objective here, pure blind adoration, no intelligence involved :D The heart doesn't care about logic.
On April 15 2011 20:52 myasQo wrote: Another proof that koreans can't beat europe with macro style.
I have to ask... How did you conclude that this is "another proof" Koreans can't beat Europeans with macro style? Care to enlighten us? Are you implying that zero Koreans know how to play macro at the highest level?
On April 15 2011 20:30 pyro19 wrote: Executes a Strat Perfectly - Check Read Whitera like a book - Check Shows Immense Balls to execute a Now or Never Cheese with 15,000$ on the Line - Check Comes back from 2-0 Down - Check
But the game didn"t go past the 20 min game , so MC doesn"t deserve it.TL does my head in Somedays. The bias here is Ridiculous.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
Yeah cause winning isn't the main goal for a professional. Any professional sports player knows it's all about appeasing to the whiny fans... I really don't understand how this is even a argument.
it s an opion smarty, not an argument. I dislike MC, not because he wants to win, his behaviour annoys me, his choice of builds annoy me.
It is entertainmet, i have the right to hate on a football team which plays defense twice 90+5 minutes in the Champions league to pass with a combined score of 1-0 or 1-1 with scoring a goal on the hometeams field. They do it because they want money, it's understandable, but dont ask then all the viwers to support and like that team, because it managed to win. No, fans have the right to trash on play that they dislike, that's how it works.
Except you don't hate your favorite football team when they do the same. You praise their great play. It's basic sports fan behaviour. And trust me, the fans of the team you dislike do the same. It's nothing objective here, pure blind adoration, no intelligence involved :D The heart doesn't care about logic.
that s complete bullshit. I ve been watching football for a long time, and i never cheered for teams whose playstyle were killing the game, if due to a coach or players change one of my favorite clubs became a "let s bunker 190 minutes cuz it s effective" team i stopped watching their games.
The same goes for sc2, i love the players who bring me good games. Troughout MCs 2 GSL runs, word vs korea, dreamhack and all the other events MC entertained me like 5-6 times.
You're a fan of someone who 4 gates very effectively and is smart enough to abuse others's weaknesses with even bigger allins or other gimmick stuff? that's fine with me, but dont expect all the others to do the same, and definetly dont try to explain to them how dumb they are for not liking such a genious and effective player.
In fact it was Ra taking the risk, I'm sure 90% of you won't understand this, but if you do the same build over and over again that's by far more risky than the cheese (which was built on information of 4 previous games.) MC used. See a weakness and counter it. [Also this is a reason why most progamers will not do the same buildorder over and over in BoX - to be more unpredictable] That's why MC is great and you are not. Seriously, as a ex clanmate (and more or less friend) of minchul all I can say to everyone that BM'ed the guy on his twitter: You're fucking scumbags. Go fuck yourself and digg a hole so deep that you'll never ever get the fuck out of there again, we don't need people like you here.
E: Actually reading the last pages it seems like many people have understood, but the rant above was meant for those, who fucking don't. And now don't come off as there were none of those.
I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
He is pretty much on a roll in every tournament though.
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
Why do you think he will fall? what is his weakness that you've discovered, that no other pro gamer has seen so far?
I think you just want him to fall, because you don't like him and his attitude. Which is ironic when you at the same time mention that you're a fan of IdrA, who has pretty much the same attitude.
I'm a huge White-Ra fan, and I fist-pumped when he took the second game(!) even though I was only watching a VOD and I already knew Whitera was going to loose beforehand.
And still, I don't have anything hateful to say about MC. He just playing the game, not his fault PvP is what it is. Grats MC Too bad there wasn't $7,5k for 2nd place though
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
I'm not too big a fan of his attitude either. As a matter of fact it makes me chuckle when I see that chubby kid try to act badass. He's an incredible good player, better than most of us ever will be, but that's not a reason to act like he does.
And people wonder why progammers don't like to read forums, even on matches they win people are dicks.
On April 15 2011 20:52 myasQo wrote: Another proof that koreans can't beat europe with macro style.
Did you read the OP? He chose the style he thought would 100% beat White-ra based on the first four games and it did. Why would he choose a macro style opening that won't beat White-ra's build which is the same.
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
Nice job accusing MC of being outplayed and going for cheese when there's a very credible post right above yours that pretty much refutes the idea completely. You couldn't have posted at a more perfect time if you wanted to look ignorant.
LOL MC, you can dish out the BM but you can't take it?
Do what you can to win and don't feel sorry for it, but when you're a cocky SOB expect to get some hate from those who are rubbed the wrong way by your showboating.
It's never worth hating on any player for cheesing it's just part of the game and without it the game would be way less fun. Great players are great because of their willingness to take risks not just for trying to play safe every game- if you can't see that then you don't really understand the game well enough.
On April 15 2011 21:49 Hollis wrote: LOL MC, you can dish out the BM but you can't take it?
Do what you can to win and don't feel sorry for it, but when you're a cocky SOB expect to get some hate from those who are rubbed the wrong way by your showboating.
What do you mean he can't take it, he stated his reasons and didn't really dish out the bm this time
I really don't see how people can be upset with MC's play. I was watching the tournament live and I felt many people were seriously disappointed with White-ra's play. So many were cheering for him and making the same build 5 times in a row won't win you any finals against MC.
Lol are people actually BMing MC for the last game? That is so silly haha, he's a pro gamer and he wants to win and anything you can do to win is allowed (within the rules of course ).
Personally I think it was a bullshit ending to the finals, really anticlimactic. But do I hate MC for it? Of course not, he did what he had to. If anything I think the point he made about whitera doing the same opening build in every game and that he just exploited that fact was very valid.
MC really should just ignore the loud minority though. There will always be haters and he has to learn not to let it get to him.
On April 15 2011 20:54 dtz wrote: Basketball teams hack a shaq. Aim for a player with 3 or more fouls so they will get foul-out. Harass the hell out of Dwight Howard so he get techical fouls.
Football(Soccer) team run out the clock. Do strategic foulings. "Park the bus to protect a 1-0 lead" Mourinho's Inter purposely did not want the ball against Barcelona because it is easier to defend that way and have like 20 percent possession the whole game
Note that these are element of the games allowed by the rules and structure of the game. Just like MC's proxy gate was. Not something illegal like performance enhancing drugs. It was not like MC was stream-cheating/maphacking/listening to the commentators. These guys do what it takes to win within the framework of the game regardless of how entertaining it is for the spectator and that is why they are appreciated. And i don't see football and basketball losing popularity any time soon.
And those teams are hated by opponent's fans and more often than not by neutral fans who want to be entertained. Most normal thing in the world Those sports do not lose the popularity because there is enough of entertaining play to outweigh the boring/annoying stuff. Competitive sports have to balance entertainment with competition to remain alive, but it is not the job of players to make it so. Players should play to win, and if the game/sport is well designed it will produce entertaining results, otherwise it will die.
On April 15 2011 21:49 Hollis wrote: LOL MC, you can dish out the BM but you can't take it?
Do what you can to win and don't feel sorry for it, but when you're a cocky SOB expect to get some hate from those who are rubbed the wrong way by your showboating.
Can't take it? He took it quite well. He simply explained his thought process behind the decision to 2gate, to show that he wasn't just blindly gambling as people were accusing him of doing. What about that indicates that he "can't take it"?
On April 15 2011 20:30 pyro19 wrote: Executes a Strat Perfectly - Check Read Whitera like a book - Check Shows Immense Balls to execute a Now or Never Cheese with 15,000$ on the Line - Check Comes back from 2-0 Down - Check
But the game didn"t go past the 20 min game , so MC doesn"t deserve it.TL does my head in Somedays. The bias here is Ridiculous.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly.
I agree, and since he read him perfectly, he did know that Whitera skipped the zealot so the cheese would have a high chance of success,
The tweet only shows that he cares about the foreign community I guess
On April 15 2011 10:16 bibbaly wrote: A win is a win no matter how dirty it seems to be. With money on the line, especially that much money, you have to exploit every weakness your opponent has.
There's nothing dirty about taking advantage of the fact that your opponent is consistently doing exactly the same thing.
When you design a build there's a reason you test it against 9 pool, roach rush, two rax, 3 rax, proxy 2 gate, 4 gate. White-ra's build had a weakeness and MC killed him for it. In fact, if MC goes into a macro game with white-ra, since he skips the zealot, he is actually behind. So MC just noticed a weakness in the build and abused it. Abusing a build weakness with a proxy 2 gate is no different then abusing different builds with later timings
Yeah, I saw that last game, MC exactly countered what White-Ra was going to do. MC knew Ra wasn't going to get a zealot out. MC was able to just get a better read on his opponent over Ra over the course of the games. GG MC!
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
MC lost 1st game cause of a lucky probe (and that was WhiteRa 4g vs 3 gate robo, which by MCs words should have been a loss anyway and yet he only lost cause WhiteRa got extremely lucky). He lost 2nd game cause he wanted to wait for blink even though pushing into the FEing WhiteRa would have done a lot more damage - no idea why he waited, considering he had the info.
That's not outplayed. Then used what is currently considered best play for PvP, 4gate, owned ra in 2 games and then owned him again by taking advantage of the gaping flaw in WhiteRa's game, predictability.
You dislike MC who's actually proven he's good but like Idra who just thinks he's good and got no results in months? Even though Idra is one of the few players in the world I think could beat MC in a BO5 atm, if he gets his head straight, WhiteRa isn't one of them.
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
Yeah cause winning isn't the main goal for a professional. Any professional sports player knows it's all about appeasing to the whiny fans... I really don't understand how this is even a argument.
it s an opion smarty, not an argument. I dislike MC, not because he wants to win, his behaviour annoys me, his choice of builds annoy me.
It is entertainmet, i have the right to hate on a football team which plays defense twice 90+5 minutes in the Champions league to pass with a combined score of 1-0 or 1-1 with scoring a goal on the hometeams field. They do it because they want money, it's understandable, but dont ask then all the viwers to support and like that team, because it managed to win. No, fans have the right to trash on play that they dislike, that's how it works.
yeah, but MC is not playing 1-0 or 1-1, he's playing for 5+ goals win with a very very very very effective way to score goals (win games)
Why does MC feel the need to explain himself? He's literally the best starcraft 2 player in the world. (I guess tied with MVP ? since they both won GSL twice)
On April 15 2011 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Understandable? Sure, anti-climatic as shit? Absolutely yes, it's the 5th game, if you know your opponent does 1 thing and wanna take advantage of it with a boring allin, might as well do it the first or second set, it ruins the whole atmosphere of the deciding set, and as a PRO he should know that.
Yeah cause winning isn't the main goal for a professional. Any professional sports player knows it's all about appeasing to the whiny fans... I really don't understand how this is even a argument.
it s an opion smarty, not an argument. I dislike MC, not because he wants to win, his behaviour annoys me, his choice of builds annoy me.
It is entertainmet, i have the right to hate on a football team which plays defense twice 90+5 minutes in the Champions league to pass with a combined score of 1-0 or 1-1 with scoring a goal on the hometeams field. They do it because they want money, it's understandable, but dont ask then all the viwers to support and like that team, because it managed to win. No, fans have the right to trash on play that they dislike, that's how it works.
yeah, but MC is not playing 1-0 or 1-1, he's playing for 5+ goals win with a very very very very effective way to score goals (win games)
I think you did not understand what he was saying. By 1-0,1-1 play in football he means boring, not entertaining play. He finds MC's play boring and not entertaining ergo the comparison. The analogy was not based on defensiveness vs aggressiveness but on subjective boring vs entertaining. I personally also do not like MC's playstyle, although I found g5 actually well played and interesting compared to some other games he won (or even lost).
On April 15 2011 22:41 Scrubington wrote: Why does MC feel the need to explain himself? He's literally the best starcraft 2 player in the world. (I guess tied with MVP ? since they both won GSL twice)
On April 15 2011 22:41 Scrubington wrote: Why does MC feel the need to explain himself? He's literally the best starcraft 2 player in the world. (I guess tied with MVP ? since they both won GSL twice)
dreamhack > code A
what does this comment even mean? how much thought went into it? why do people post without even thinking about what theyre trying to say. boggles my mind.
On April 15 2011 22:41 Scrubington wrote: Why does MC feel the need to explain himself? He's literally the best starcraft 2 player in the world. (I guess tied with MVP ? since they both won GSL twice)
dreamhack > code A
People should get banned for this kind of stupidity. Really dude, really? 300 posts and you're still typing shit like this?
On April 15 2011 21:46 maartendq wrote: I'm not too big a fan of his attitude either. As a matter of fact it makes me chuckle when I see that chubby kid try to act badass. He's an incredible good player, better than most of us ever will be, but that's not a reason to act like he does.
I like him acting bad-ass. During Sc1 I got tired of the ever polite, every shy stuff and grew to like the players who were actually showing some entertainment (altho this is, obviously, very subjective) like FireBatHero, Zeus etc.
mc shouldn't worry about the foreigners bming him, because those are the big green sometimes grey thingies living in caves and bm everyone anyway. No one cares about their comments and since they feed of comments you can easily starve them ^.^ . Well not easily they have big bellys and survive for a long time, especially since alot of people can't resist to reply like me for example hehe.
When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
So basically you're saying MC should NOT have gone with a sure thing and instead gambled for the sake of entertaining the crowd and potentially lose $15,000? That makes absolutely 0 sense if you really think about it from MC's perspective. If you were in MC's shoes and had the decision to proxy and KNOW you're going to win, or, go for say a 4 gate and POTENTIALLY lose, which would you go with?
The answer from almost anyone's perspective should be the sure thing and proxy. Their number one goal is to win (ie. make a living), the secondary goal is to entertain, not the other way around.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
His job isn't really to entertain you. He knew that the proxy had a very high probability because of the first 4 games and that map was better suited for it. And wtf, PvP are usually build order wins anyway so that makes no sense at all. The last match shouldn't make or break your viewing experience, the entire set was very good and a back and forth battle, it was actually one of the better finals we have seen in quite a while. --
I am really tired of people complaining that matches aren't good unless they last thirty minutes and their favorite player wins. I personally thought the game was very good as it showed how MC can find a weakness in an opponent and exploit it, he doesn't just sit there and try to play a single style and he isn't afraid to take a massive risk. We need more of that in E-Sports. (I mean people taking calculated risks and not just all-ining every game)
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
To argue that a professional sc2 player should not do what he believes is best for the sake of the crowd is just like telling the worlds best soccer player to intentionally miss the goal to make the game longer and more exiting
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
lol ur talking like 6 pool against 20 hatchery is bad thing.
There are a lot of whiners here. The best players get away with the most stuff, and MC showed once again why he is the best player. He took full advantage of white-ra's opening, not building a zealot every day. People should be praising MC for his adaptive sense and for having the balls to do that. The only person who would even think of doing that in a game5 is Jaedong, and everyone knows his success.
Sorry you guys didn't get the game you feel "entitled" to, but you should enjoy it anyway. Staging a 3-2 comeback is one of the rarest things at the highest level. It wasn't until 2007 that it happened in a BW starleague final.
MC gets nothing but praise from me, for his skill and resilience.
Sometimes the shorter games are the really good ones because you see a strategy that is simply better than his opponent's. This is a strategy game, guys.
It's a Real Time Strategy game, not a Real Time Macro game Having excellent macro is obviously a requirement to play at a high level, and to execute longer games (where neither opening strategy can (or is designed) to win), but does not define the game on a competitive level. When it comes down to it, strategy is how you win, macro largely becomes a given, especially on their level.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
Of course the build doesn't require skill to start but it requires a lot of skill if the defender finds it, micro at least. And then it's pretty much the difference between a good and a great player, strategic thinking, which while not part of the clicking is still part of the game.
I agree doing this on ladder for points isn't something that shows any skill because your info about your opponent approaches 0 but doing this in a BOX in the 9th game in less than a month against the same guy shows a lot of skill. And if skill in SC2 would be being able to make 200 food worth of units and moving them around the map it would be a pretty boring game, where does the player's brain fit in, there's not much thinking going on while macro-ing, it's more reflex.
I didn't like the way the finals turned out as a spectator or as someone who was cheering for whitera but it's a shame there's so much bm towards MC. Despite whether or not the game was disappointing he should still get respect from the community as a great player. Doesn't matter if it's MC or someone else.
Probably would get less hate if he didn't boast so much though haha.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
So basically you're saying MC should NOT have gone with a sure thing and instead gambled for the sake of entertaining the crowd and potentially lose $15,000? That makes absolutely 0 sense if you really think about it from MC's perspective. If you were in MC's shoes and had the decision to proxy and KNOW you're going to win, or, go for say a 4 gate and POTENTIALLY lose, which would you go with?
The answer from almost anyone's perspective should be the sure thing and proxy. Their number one goal is to win (ie. make a living), the secondary goal is to entertain, not the other way around.
First of all, that was a high risk build, I don't care if MC saw the opportunity or not but if Whitera had scouted that he would have won, aka MC relied on luck that last game. Wathever you or MC says that was not safe, its a cheese; that's why its not safe, an allin that will make you loose if your opponent scouts it and react properly
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLNOSKILLRUSHGEAM-craft" which is the metagame many of the mathcups are slowly moving towards.
Most of the MC fanboyz just don't understand that most of us are not disappointed because of MC. We are disappointed in blizzard making a game demanding such a low skill, with no defense advantage, with no way to past 4gate with risky tech choices, a game where MC's playstyle, heavily using gateway timing attacks, is winning everyone.
MC as a player, I'm sure, is good at maccroing, but he is not dominant, his dominance comes from his understanding of a game that is (sadly for the viewers) not finished properly.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
Of course the build doesn't require skill to start but it requires a lot of skill if the defender finds it, micro at least. And then it's pretty much the difference between a good and a great player, strategic thinking, which while not part of the clicking is still part of the game.
I agree doing this on ladder for points isn't something that shows any skill because your info about your opponent approaches 0 but doing this in a BOX in the 9th game in less than a month against the same guy shows a lot of skill. And if skill in SC2 would be being able to make 200 food worth of units and moving them around the map it would be a pretty boring game, where does the player's brain fit in, there's not much thinking going on while macro-ing, it's more reflex.
u know what? even if whitera saw mc's proxy, its not autolose for mc. watch the ace vs squirtle ST inhouse match.
On April 15 2011 23:23 Celadan wrote: First of all, that was a high risk build, I don't care if MC saw the opportunity or not but if Whitera had scouted that he would have won, aka MC relied on luck that last game. Wathever you or MC says that was not safe, its a cheese; that's why its not safe, an allin that will make you loose if your opponent scouts it and react properly
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLNOSKILLRUSHGEAM-craft" which is the metagame many of the mathcups are slowly moving towards.
I agree whole heartedly with this, but at the same time you simply can't expect someone in a tournament with money on the line to consciously call off doing build X because it's "cheese" and go with Y for the sake of entertaining the viewership .
On April 15 2011 22:41 Scrubington wrote: Why does MC feel the need to explain himself? He's literally the best starcraft 2 player in the world. (I guess tied with MVP ? since they both won GSL twice)
dreamhack > code A
People should get banned for this kind of stupidity. Really dude, really? 300 posts and you're still typing shit like this?
this post doesn't contribute to the thread. please read the 10 commandments before posting again.
on topic: this thread has definitely derailed multiple times to just straight up MC-bashing and protoss whining. PvP is generally going to be 4gate vs 4gate. that's not the players' fault, so don't whine about boring games when it's inevitable.
On one side, it's embarrassing that people whined so much that MC actually had to explain himself.
But on the other side I have to admit it's awesome to have the best Korean progamer talk to us via Twitter. Next step: get them to register TL accounts. =P
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
oh, the irony of you cheering for idra...
i'm guessing you were hiding under a rock for mlg dallas when idra claims huk can't beat him in a real game. come on, the guy does nothing but complain about imba which is miles worse.
On April 15 2011 23:23 Celadan wrote: First of all, that was a high risk build, I don't care if MC saw the opportunity or not but if Whitera had scouted that he would have won, aka MC relied on luck that last game. Wathever you or MC says that was not safe, its a cheese; that's why its not safe, an allin that will make you loose if your opponent scouts it and react properly
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLNOSKILLRUSHGEAM-craft" which is the metagame many of the mathcups are slowly moving towards.
I agree whole heartedly with this, but at the same time you simply can't expect someone in a tournament with money on the line to consciously call off doing build X because it's "cheese" and go with Y for the sake of entertaining the viewership .
4 pool, bunker rushes, SC1, 13 years and still going strong ...
Every build is high risk. The risk just comes in at a different time and takes longer to show but in the end it's always ~50-50.
How is it no skill studying your opponent using your brain? He certainly knew WhiteRa better than WhiteRa knew him. I am assuming WhiteRa had such a risky BO because he "knew" MC doesn't 2gate. That went well.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
His job isn't really to entertain you. He knew that the proxy had a very high probability because of the first 4 games and that map was better suited for it. And wtf, PvP are usually build order wins anyway so that makes no sense at all. The last match shouldn't make or break your viewing experience, the entire set was very good and a back and forth battle, it was actually one of the better finals we have seen in quite a while. --
I am really tired of people complaining that matches aren't good unless they last thirty minutes and their favorite player wins. I personally thought the game was very good as it showed how MC can find a weakness in an opponent and exploit it, he doesn't just sit there and try to play a single style and he isn't afraid to take a massive risk. We need more of that in E-Sports. (I mean people taking calculated risks and not just all-ining every game)
I see your point and im certainly NOT trying to imply that each game should last 30 min.
But i don't think personally that the finals was good at all. Had one or two good games but the series overall was not so entertaining for me(my opinion ofcourse)
And BTW his job is to entertain people (maybe not me in particular but still it is to entertain people) That is whats making E-Sports profitable and he works in E-Sports last time i checked atleast.
I just think that he could atleast done that in the game before and left the final game with atleast some suspense in it. And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something)
Cruncher has probably got 10x more hate than MC, mainly because MC is such an accomplished player. There are just a lot of idiotic SC2 fans who are very vocal/whiney.
Is that little bitch blaming SWEDEN for BMing him about the cheese win? that's some ol' bullshit nyuka. The whole crowd cheered for you, you ungrateful fuck.
WWE vs UFC. I'm happy for those that whine about the players playing the best they can that they can be satisfied with just WWE. I guess flashy is flashy for a reason, like flies to a light bulb.
On April 15 2011 23:41 frankepooz wrote: Is that little bitch blaming SWEDEN for BMing him about the cheese win? that's some ol' bullshit nyuka. The whole crowd cheered for you, you ungrateful fuck.
Did you actually read his message or did you just read every other word? ./facepalm
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
His job isn't really to entertain you. He knew that the proxy had a very high probability because of the first 4 games and that map was better suited for it. And wtf, PvP are usually build order wins anyway so that makes no sense at all. The last match shouldn't make or break your viewing experience, the entire set was very good and a back and forth battle, it was actually one of the better finals we have seen in quite a while. --
I am really tired of people complaining that matches aren't good unless they last thirty minutes and their favorite player wins. I personally thought the game was very good as it showed how MC can find a weakness in an opponent and exploit it, he doesn't just sit there and try to play a single style and he isn't afraid to take a massive risk. We need more of that in E-Sports. (I mean people taking calculated risks and not just all-ining every game)
I see your point and im certainly NOT trying to imply that each game should last 30 min.
But i don't think personally that the finals was good at all. Had one or two good games but the series overall was not so entertaining for me(my opinion ofcourse)
And BTW his job is to entertain people (maybe not me in particular but still it is to entertain people) That is whats making E-Sports profitable and he works in E-Sports last time i checked atleast.
I just think that he could atleast done that in the game before and left the final game with atleast some suspense in it. And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something)
I was at Dreamhack and there was huge suspense in the final match. It was quick and not a huge macro match but people were really into it. Just cause you don't like a few rushes here and there doesn't mean that everyone does.
SC2 survived the 2 rax bunker rushes of GSL S2 so i think we can survive MC doing ONE 2-gate.
i hope white-ra could instantly a better player after this series.. you think he will change up his build order or do thing differently in the future?
and by the way, if a toss needs to depend on that small mineral gain, being greedy and hope to win a pvp with that econ edge, then we all might as well just say no rush until 5:30 when pvp
and comes in mind... can we all stop using "cheese" i think the correct term is "rush"
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
His job isn't really to entertain you. He knew that the proxy had a very high probability because of the first 4 games and that map was better suited for it. And wtf, PvP are usually build order wins anyway so that makes no sense at all. The last match shouldn't make or break your viewing experience, the entire set was very good and a back and forth battle, it was actually one of the better finals we have seen in quite a while. --
I am really tired of people complaining that matches aren't good unless they last thirty minutes and their favorite player wins. I personally thought the game was very good as it showed how MC can find a weakness in an opponent and exploit it, he doesn't just sit there and try to play a single style and he isn't afraid to take a massive risk. We need more of that in E-Sports. (I mean people taking calculated risks and not just all-ining every game)
I see your point and im certainly NOT trying to imply that each game should last 30 min.
But i don't think personally that the finals was good at all. Had one or two good games but the series overall was not so entertaining for me(my opinion ofcourse)
And BTW his job is to entertain people (maybe not me in particular but still it is to entertain people) That is whats making E-Sports profitable and he works in E-Sports last time i checked atleast.
I just think that he could atleast done that in the game before and left the final game with atleast some suspense in it. And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something)
Well, as it seems, for most people here the last game was great and most certainly epic and memorable. I guess that's job well done then.
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
Idra went for a 6/7 pool against MC and Idra got owned. I laughed and i laughed badly! White ra did the same opening everytime and MC Punishd him for it. You my man are a hypocrite.
I think it's funny that some people were giving MC a hard time about the cheese. MC obviously had a reason for doing it which is cool but even if he didn't have any reason to think that cheese would be especially strong, if he thinks it can win him the game and money he should do it. This is their job and they are competing to be the best in every tournament and at the end of the day even though a game that ends in cheese may be less fun to watch for some people if he gets the win with it who cares? He walks away with the paycheck and I'm sure he doesn't care how he got it.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
His job isn't really to entertain you. He knew that the proxy had a very high probability because of the first 4 games and that map was better suited for it. And wtf, PvP are usually build order wins anyway so that makes no sense at all. The last match shouldn't make or break your viewing experience, the entire set was very good and a back and forth battle, it was actually one of the better finals we have seen in quite a while. --
I am really tired of people complaining that matches aren't good unless they last thirty minutes and their favorite player wins. I personally thought the game was very good as it showed how MC can find a weakness in an opponent and exploit it, he doesn't just sit there and try to play a single style and he isn't afraid to take a massive risk. We need more of that in E-Sports. (I mean people taking calculated risks and not just all-ining every game)
I see your point and im certainly NOT trying to imply that each game should last 30 min.
But i don't think personally that the finals was good at all. Had one or two good games but the series overall was not so entertaining for me(my opinion ofcourse)
And BTW his job is to entertain people (maybe not me in particular but still it is to entertain people) That is whats making E-Sports profitable and he works in E-Sports last time i checked atleast.
I just think that he could atleast done that in the game before and left the final game with atleast some suspense in it. And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something)
Well, as it seems, for most people here the last game was great and most certainly epic and memorable. I guess that's job well done then.
Did you notice the word "unless"?
And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something
On April 15 2011 23:20 TimeSpiral wrote: It was a perfect play.
Sometimes the shorter games are the really good ones because you see a strategy that is simply better than his opponent's. This is a strategy game, guys.
It's a Real Time Strategy game, not a Real Time Macro game Having excellent macro is obviously a requirement to play at a high level, and to execute longer games (where neither opening strategy can (or is designed) to win), but does not define the game on a competitive level. When it comes down to it, strategy is how you win, macro largely becomes a given, especially on their level.
everyone on TL.net should carve this in their mind imo. when laddering or competing, this is the absolute truth...
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
Nice job accusing MC of being outplayed and going for cheese when there's a very credible post right above yours that pretty much refutes the idea completely. You couldn't have posted at a more perfect time if you wanted to look ignorant.
Yeah he has been outplayed, and oh god I looked ignorant on TL! Man my life is over. WhiteRa did the huge mistake of not expecting a cheese on g4 & 5, he over probed, didnt scout enough, and played quite bad, it was like he thought this was already won. But yeah, MC didnt impress me at all during this tournament. And yeah very credible post from an ex team mate of his who insults everyone that disagree with him, way to go tard thats how you debate. And seriously, WhiteRa isnt really solid, there is huge mistakes in his play, I remember seing him supply block himself at the worse moment ever (4 gate at his ramp), mis microed some units at early stages, and yeah MC didnt win him in a convincing way. Therefor, yeah, MC isnt a sc2 god like everyone tends to say, he's a top player worldwide, for sure, but so far from being unbeatable, we'll talk about it in 2 month anyway, dear genius, I'm so sorry for exposing my ignorance to you, you made me laugh tho
Edit: and about IdrA, I like his style, I dont over estimate him like a lot of people do, he just makes me laugh as a cocky player in his interview and reactions, MC is just cocky and there is nothing funny there, but yeah you could compare the two, IdrA is just entertaining
On April 15 2011 23:41 frankepooz wrote: Is that little bitch blaming SWEDEN for BMing him about the cheese win? that's some ol' bullshit nyuka. The whole crowd cheered for you, you ungrateful fuck.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
His job isn't really to entertain you. He knew that the proxy had a very high probability because of the first 4 games and that map was better suited for it. And wtf, PvP are usually build order wins anyway so that makes no sense at all. The last match shouldn't make or break your viewing experience, the entire set was very good and a back and forth battle, it was actually one of the better finals we have seen in quite a while. --
I am really tired of people complaining that matches aren't good unless they last thirty minutes and their favorite player wins. I personally thought the game was very good as it showed how MC can find a weakness in an opponent and exploit it, he doesn't just sit there and try to play a single style and he isn't afraid to take a massive risk. We need more of that in E-Sports. (I mean people taking calculated risks and not just all-ining every game)
I see your point and im certainly NOT trying to imply that each game should last 30 min.
But i don't think personally that the finals was good at all. Had one or two good games but the series overall was not so entertaining for me(my opinion ofcourse)
And BTW his job is to entertain people (maybe not me in particular but still it is to entertain people) That is whats making E-Sports profitable and he works in E-Sports last time i checked atleast.
I just think that he could atleast done that in the game before and left the final game with atleast some suspense in it. And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something)
Well, as it seems, for most people here the last game was great and most certainly epic and memorable. I guess that's job well done then.
And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something
I think you missed my point by the way.
I think many of us can read between the lines and know that you and many other people are just disappointed that the foreigner lost.
Almost everytime a shitstorm like this happens, the foreigner used the same build every single time on in BoX series. They just need to vary their build.
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
oh, the irony of you cheering for idra...
i'm guessing you were hiding under a rock for mlg dallas when idra claims huk can't beat him in a real game. come on, the guy does nothing but complain about imba which is miles worse.
Yeah, and it is funny, regardless of his play, IdrA creates fun all around, even people who hate him enjoy seing what was this nerd last scandal, and what bullshit will he say next. I mean, seing some of his posts on this forum, this kid has some really bad manner, and said some things that should get him a good old slap ("WE saved France from nazis" I really dont care about the last part, but I always hated when a 20 years old nerd takes credit for something that was 70 years ago), but at least it makes the pro scene a little bit less "calm" and, I dont know how to say it in english but colorless lets say. So i'm a "fan" in that way, he's the only one you can follow and never be bored
Of course the finals isn't entertaining. It's PvP, what do you expect? I've yet to see a build that is not gateway heavy into robo. I can probably predict how a standard game plays out with a good chance of nailing it.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
His job isn't really to entertain you. He knew that the proxy had a very high probability because of the first 4 games and that map was better suited for it. And wtf, PvP are usually build order wins anyway so that makes no sense at all. The last match shouldn't make or break your viewing experience, the entire set was very good and a back and forth battle, it was actually one of the better finals we have seen in quite a while. --
I am really tired of people complaining that matches aren't good unless they last thirty minutes and their favorite player wins. I personally thought the game was very good as it showed how MC can find a weakness in an opponent and exploit it, he doesn't just sit there and try to play a single style and he isn't afraid to take a massive risk. We need more of that in E-Sports. (I mean people taking calculated risks and not just all-ining every game)
I see your point and im certainly NOT trying to imply that each game should last 30 min.
But i don't think personally that the finals was good at all. Had one or two good games but the series overall was not so entertaining for me(my opinion ofcourse)
And BTW his job is to entertain people (maybe not me in particular but still it is to entertain people) That is whats making E-Sports profitable and he works in E-Sports last time i checked atleast.
I just think that he could atleast done that in the game before and left the final game with atleast some suspense in it. And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something)
Well, as it seems, for most people here the last game was great and most certainly epic and memorable. I guess that's job well done then.
Did you notice the word "unless"?
And yes, the last game in a tournament is whats the most clear in my memory and is the biggest factor if i liked the series or not.(unless a game is radically epic or something
I think you missed my point by the way.
I think many of us can read between the lines and know that you and many other people are just disappointed that the foreigner lost.
Almost everytime a shitstorm like this happens, the foreigner used the same build every single time on in BoX series. They just need to vary their build.
Well I can man up and say that i was slightly dissapointed but thats not the reason why i post this.
If you stopped reading between the lines and actualy read what i wrote, you would understand that it is the way MC won thats the problem not that MC won.
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
oh, the irony of you cheering for idra...
i'm guessing you were hiding under a rock for mlg dallas when idra claims huk can't beat him in a real game. come on, the guy does nothing but complain about imba which is miles worse.
Yeah, and it is funny, regardless of his play, IdrA creates fun all around, even people who hate him enjoy seing what was this nerd last scandal, and what bullshit will he say next. I mean, seing some of his posts on this forum, this kid has some really bad manner, and said some things that should get him a good old slap ("WE saved France from nazis" I really dont care about the last part, but I always hated when a 20 years old nerd takes credit for something that was 70 years ago), but at least it makes the pro scene a little bit less "calm" and, I dont know how to say it in english but colorless lets say. So i'm a "fan" in that way, he's the only one you can follow and never be bored
worrying thing is more and more players are adopting this "fun" little style. one is more than enough of these whinykids!
On April 16 2011 00:11 shadymmj wrote: Of course the finals isn't entertaining. It's PvP, what do you expect? I've yet to see a build that is not gateway heavy into robo. I can probably predict how a standard game plays out with a good chance of nailing it.
TLO's usage of phoenixes in PvP vs WhiteRa if i remember right was really cool to watch and seemed kinda effective, but yeah PvP is boring as fuck
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
I think most people with this argument still hasn't come to the point of starcraft 2, where executing a build order is the least of your troubles, and you start seeing the strategy, the positioning, the mind games and the full depth of what is starcraft. Basically people are saying "I can do proxy gates. MC is a noob". I encourage you. READ the thread and his tweet. He did it because WhiteRa has done the same build in PvP in basically every game they've played eachother (now up to 9), where he skips the for all other builds, mandatory first zealot. This makes him extremely vulnerable until his second stalker is out, where he's in an advantage. You can't say MC's a noob, can't win a macro game and whatever shit people are saying, just 'cause he went for a build order that isn't difficult to execute, because it's simply not relevant.. at all.
You could just as well say that WhiteRa did a cheesy, risky build every single game, and in the end MC simply blind countered it.
To make it extreme. How would you stop a double expanding protoss who doesn't even make a gateway? You make units and attack early on before he gets his full advantage, because if you wait too long (in this case until the second and third stalker is out) you're in big doo doo, as 3 stalkers beat a stalker and a zealot, and if you have complete map control in PvP, you're free to do whatever you want, as you generally only attack with warped in units from a proxy pylon.
Don't really care about the drama, but it's hilarious how the people claiming WhiteRa "outplayed" MC in the first two games, and then lost to "cheese", are primarily Terran and Zerg players (or at least posters with Terran and Zerg icons). As a Protoss player, hearing someone complain about 1 base all-ins in PvP being "cheesy" is just so weird, because everything MC did in games 3 and 4 was as standard as you can possibly get, in the context of the matchup. In actuality, it was WhiteRa's expansions that were extremely risky and unsafe.
Seriously, being mad at players for 4gating in PvP is so stupid. Be mad at Blizzard for putting retarded crap like Warpgates in the game and for removing most of the defensive advantages that were present in BW. This is even worse than the marine/scv all-in hate back from GSL S3, because Terrans at least had different, viable options in TvZ back then; while a Protoss is practically required to build 4 Gateways in every PvP, or risk losing automatically.
There's absolutely no reason for MC to have to defend himself. This isn't ladder, this is his job. He was hired by OGS to win championships, and he's fulfilling his end of the contract.
For those bming, just think about this situation: in a world cup match, if your opponent goalkeeper accidentally miss pass the ball to you, will you try to score or simply pass back cause the fans want an entertaining game?
The answer is damn obvious ain it? you always play to win, don't bullcrap here about beautiful execution, Whitera should have realized his build only weakness is a 2 gate proxy, and should have tried to scout it every game.
On April 16 2011 00:16 kalleralle wrote: Cool except NOBODY hated on him for winning in that fashion. NOBODY. (Except maybe a few gold players who thought of it when they saw this thread)
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
I think most people with this argument still hasn't come to the point of starcraft 2, where executing a build order is the least of your troubles, and you start seeing the strategy, the positioning, the mind games and the full depth of what is starcraft. Basically people are saying "I can do proxy gates. MC is a noob". I encourage you. READ the thread and his tweet. He did it because WhiteRa has done the same build in PvP in basically every game they've played eachother (now up to 9), where he skips the for all other builds, mandatory first zealot. This makes him extremely vulnerable until his second stalker is out, where he's in an advantage. You can't say MC's a noob, can't win a macro game and whatever shit people are saying, just 'cause he went for a build order that isn't difficult to execute, because it's simply not relevant.. at all.
You could just as well say that WhiteRa did a cheesy, risky build every single game, and in the end MC simply blind countered it.
To make it extreme. How would you stop a double expanding protoss who doesn't even make a gateway? You make units and attack early on before he gets his full advantage, because if you wait too long (in this case until the second and third stalker is out) you're in big doo doo, as 3 stalkers beat a stalker and a zealot, and if you have complete map control in PvP, you're free to do whatever you want, as you generally only attack with warped in units from a proxy pylon.
Yes i see your point, please read some of the other posts i wrote so you understand that im not enraged or calling MC a noob(even if its easy to think so based of that single post).
I'm glad MC responded. He is recovering from his days as suicide toss haha, and being cocky is only a facade to maintain his composure in big tournaments.
Plus, he is REALLY good.
White-ra would be the first one to say that he got outplayed. And he still won decent money! Don't worry fans, he'll be back, he's too old to quit now
On April 16 2011 00:23 Toadvine wrote: Don't really care about the drama, but it's hilarious how the people claiming WhiteRa "outplayed" MC in the first two games, and then lost to "cheese", are primarily Terran and Zerg players (or at least posters with Terran and Zerg icons). As a Protoss player, hearing someone complain about 1 base all-ins in PvP being "cheesy" is just so weird, because everything MC did in games 3 and 4 was as standard as you can possibly get, in the context of the matchup. In actuality, it was WhiteRa's expansions that were extremely risky and unsafe.
Seriously, being mad at players for 4gating in PvP is so stupid. Be mad at Blizzard for putting retarded crap like Warpgates in the game and for removing most of the defensive advantages that were present in BW. This is even worse than the marine/scv all-in hate back from GSL S3, because Terrans at least had different, viable options in TvZ back then; while a Protoss is practically required to build 4 Gateways in every PvP, or risk losing automatically.
I'm terran, I loved the finals. I never cheesed in my entire SC2 career (I'm too shit at everything else in the game to care about rushes) and I never got pissed at my opponent when I got cheesed, only at myself for failing to scout/know the maps.
So 30 people tops out of 50 000 viewers BMed him and he feels the need to tweet about it. More were disappointed by an anticlimactic final game but that's not BM.
I wouldn't even call it cheese in a bo5 or bo7. It's exploiting a weakness, punishing the opponent for cutting corners. If the opponent isn't playing honest, call him out on it.
That is NOT cheese, IMO. Cheese is a 6pool or cannon rush on ladder against randoms.
In pro matches, spectators have no right in any way to express negative remarks over any type of cheese. They are pros and we aren't from the second the game begins whoever fairly gets the other person to leave the game wins. Hands down game over.
On April 16 2011 00:50 Longshank wrote: So 30 people tops out of 50 000 viewers BMed him and he feels the need to tweet about it. More were disappointed by an anticlimactic final game but that's not BM.
The kid needs to grow thinker skin. Fast.
Should read the LR thread for DH. It wasn't just 30 posts. It was a shitstorm. And he cares. And I agree, he should grow thicker skin but at least he didn't apologize, he just explained he didn't risk anything.
MC's really good at reading people and very decisive. He assumed that in the final match White-Ra would play the BO he was using for the last 4-games and countered it. Props to him for actually trying to explain himself.
On April 16 2011 00:50 Longshank wrote: So 30 people tops out of 50 000 viewers BMed him and he feels the need to tweet about it. More were disappointed by an anticlimactic final game but that's not BM.
The kid needs to grow thinker skin. Fast.
What's a thinker skin?
Anyways - MC tweeting about it shows that he cares about his image to his foreign fans. Which means that he cares about his foreign fans.
He cares. *cue dreamhack subtitle*
Which is a hell lot more than most korean progamers before this year. I think it's a GOOD thing that he tweeted that.
What I don't get is why do people even call MC a 'BM' player. Sure, he acts arrogant - but that's quite obviously an image, which in more than one way was given to him - it's not like he randomly started calling himself THE GOD PROTOSS or whatever, people said that about him, and it just sort of picked up.
Has anyone actually seen him being 'bad mannered' in the real sense of these words, though? The worst he does is his signature neckslice / thumbsdown gestures after & before games, but then again he's been doing it since his BW days when he was pretty much a nobody, and as far as I can tell, it's all in good fun. I've never heard of MC flat out insulting people or anything of the sorts, in his interviews again he's arrogant, but once more that's more of an image and possibly his poor command of English than an actual superiority complex or whatever, and he is actually very humble and respectful of his fellow players and people who make e-sports possible, so where is this really coming from?
If White-Ra had cheesed in the final game and won we would've called him a strategic genius for it. Perhaps the Korean fans would've felt deflated. This matter is overblown in any case.
What I feel IS a major issue is that Pro Gamers keep showing up at tournaments not knowing the possible spawning positions on maps. This should be made much clearer and could affect decision making by players.
On April 16 2011 00:50 Longshank wrote: So 30 people tops out of 50 000 viewers BMed him and he feels the need to tweet about it. More were disappointed by an anticlimactic final game but that's not BM.
The kid needs to grow thinker skin. Fast.
Tons of people BM'd him and called him a loser, said they had lost all respect for him, called him a pathetic cheeser, etc. I don't know if you've been under a rock lately but not everyone said "aw that's disappointing there wasn't a 6 base final game, still congrats MC". Sorry that MC pays attention to the foreigner scene and teamliquid. If he doesn't address criticism he doesn't care about the community, if he does, "needs to grow thicker skin." Cool.
An excerpt taken from www.sirlin.net, website made by famous game designer and competitive gamer.
"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite subtle and difficult to discover. Knowing the counter tactic prevents the other player from using his tactic, but he can then use a counter to your counter. You are now afraid to use your counter and the opponent can go back to sneaking in the original overpowering tactic. This concept will be covered in much more detail later.
The good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.
Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter."
Fact of the matter is that he abused the build order of white-ra with a very well placed proxy that was unluckily not scouted by either the probe leaving the base and white-ra miss scouting MC's main. Everything worked in MC's favor, people are just upset because we wanted a long epic game on a large macro map.
Thank you for that in-depth explanation of what "scrub" means Flare23, I've never understood what that term meant. But I don't really see how it ties into this discussion. Are you calling the people who trashed on MC scrubs?
I didn't see the game, but I doubt many people would have acted differently if they had the same understanding of the game as MC.
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
So basically you're saying MC should NOT have gone with a sure thing and instead gambled for the sake of entertaining the crowd and potentially lose $15,000? That makes absolutely 0 sense if you really think about it from MC's perspective. If you were in MC's shoes and had the decision to proxy and KNOW you're going to win, or, go for say a 4 gate and POTENTIALLY lose, which would you go with?
The answer from almost anyone's perspective should be the sure thing and proxy. Their number one goal is to win (ie. make a living), the secondary goal is to entertain, not the other way around.
First of all, that was a high risk build, I don't care if MC saw the opportunity or not but if Whitera had scouted that he would have won, aka MC relied on luck that last game. Wathever you or MC says that was not safe, its a cheese; that's why its not safe, an allin that will make you loose if your opponent scouts it and react properly
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLNOSKILLRUSHGEAM-craft" which is the metagame many of the mathcups are slowly moving towards.
First of all, White-ra had a high risk build. I don't care if White-ra was trying to take it to a macro game or not but it was so greedy and late-scouting that if MC realized he was doing it over and over again, he could counter it with proxy 2-gate and win, aka, white-ra relied on luck that series. Whatever you or white-ra says that was not safe, it's an incredibly greedy PvP opening with a very late scout. It's an eco opening that will make you lose if your opponent gets wise to it and reacts properly.
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLHIGHRISKECOOPENINGSGOINGUNPUNISHED-craft" which is the metagame many of the retards bashing MC want the game to move towards.
LOL I hate that article. Read it years ago. Marred by a sense of elitism and contradictions.
First half: "Lol don't make arbitrary rules scrub"
Second part: "Don't use Akuma, or certain exploits... we can make these rules because we are pro and therefore JUSTIFIED"
What?
He admits to grey area stuff like this though. Haha
How is that a contradiction? Some things are unbeatable, like Akuma as a boss character. There is a difference between unbeatable under any circumstance and extremely hard to counter.
On April 16 2011 00:50 Longshank wrote: So 30 people tops out of 50 000 viewers BMed him and he feels the need to tweet about it. More were disappointed by an anticlimactic final game but that's not BM.
The final was amazing, the crowd was so pumped every game, and that it went to a 5th game just made everything better(yes I was there seeing it live). Bit of a shame the last game was quite anticlimatic, but I fully understand -why- MC did it, he saw the opportunity and took it, anyone would with 15k on the line.
I, myself, would have preferred a long macro game to settle it all, but regardless, we got to see sick cool games, both White-Ra and MC played great through the tourney and they both deserved the win, and MC got out on top, so grats to him!
On April 15 2011 22:41 Scrubington wrote: Why does MC feel the need to explain himself? He's literally the best starcraft 2 player in the world. (I guess tied with MVP ? since they both won GSL twice)
On April 15 2011 23:06 Celadan wrote: When i watched that game i was dissappointed not because whitera lost but MC's deciscion to cheese in the deciding game, final game.
I wouldn't mind it all that much if the proxy occured in any of the other games.
Proxy rushes is nothing spectacular or as some people apparently claims "skilled". Therefore MC could have done a better job and finished the series in a proper fashion instead of giving us a 5 min game build order win as the final game in the tourney.
So basically you're saying MC should NOT have gone with a sure thing and instead gambled for the sake of entertaining the crowd and potentially lose $15,000? That makes absolutely 0 sense if you really think about it from MC's perspective. If you were in MC's shoes and had the decision to proxy and KNOW you're going to win, or, go for say a 4 gate and POTENTIALLY lose, which would you go with?
The answer from almost anyone's perspective should be the sure thing and proxy. Their number one goal is to win (ie. make a living), the secondary goal is to entertain, not the other way around.
First of all, that was a high risk build, I don't care if MC saw the opportunity or not but if Whitera had scouted that he would have won, aka MC relied on luck that last game. Wathever you or MC says that was not safe, its a cheese; that's why its not safe, an allin that will make you loose if your opponent scouts it and react properly
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLNOSKILLRUSHGEAM-craft" which is the metagame many of the mathcups are slowly moving towards.
First of all, White-ra had a high risk build. I don't care if White-ra was trying to take it to a macro game or not but it was so greedy and late-scouting that if MC realized he was doing it over and over again, he could counter it with proxy 2-gate and win, aka, white-ra relied on luck that series. Whatever you or white-ra says that was not safe, it's an incredibly greedy PvP opening with a very late scout. It's an eco opening that will make you lose if your opponent gets wise to it and reacts properly.
And besides I want SC2 to become better to watch since thats my 1# goal as a viewer. I just don't want SC2 to become "ROFLHIGHRISKECOOPENINGSGOINGUNPUNISHED-craft" which is the metagame many of the retards bashing MC want the game to move towards.
I've heard this opinion - that the 3 stalker opening is unsafe - throughout that LR thread, I see it repeated here, and yet I still don't agree. The opening isn't greedy with a reasonable rush distance, and tons of players use it as a springboard to a defensive 4gate (that's what kiwikaki did in every single pvp of his at MLG Dallas). Using 3 early Chronoboosts on probes makes holding off proxies more difficult, but not altogether impossible.
The reason WhiteRa lost that game, was because he clearly didn't know the map would force cross-positions and that therefore cheese would be a lot more likely. If he had scouted the proxy with his probe after building a gateway, he would've been able to defend with some good control.
The real greed in WhiteRa's play was his excessive probe production. He was in a good position to hold the all-in in games 3 and 4, but made too many probes, and not enough units. This is all the more bewildering, because in game 3, he knew 100% that MC had cut probe production and was going all-in with 4 gateways, and yet he kept making probes, and lost.
On April 16 2011 02:17 Albrithe wrote: Thank you for that in-depth explanation of what "scrub" means Flare23, I've never understood what that term meant. But I don't really see how it ties into this discussion. Are you calling the people who trashed on MC scrubs?
I didn't see the game, but I doubt many people would have acted differently if they had the same understanding of the game as MC.
I believe that most people who are trashing MC are trying to justify the feeling of "injustice" that the player they were rooting for lost. In order to legitimize and rationalize their feelings, they create fictitious standards of "don't cheese" and "play an long drawn-out macro game". They try to create a reality in which the player they were rooting for "wins" or at least takes a moral victory despite the fact they lost the match. Hence you see comments like "the better player lost!" or "he can only win by cheesing!" or "even though he wins, his games are boring!"
On April 16 2011 02:27 Fayfay wrote: The final was amazing, the crowd was so pumped every game, and that it went to a 5th game just made everything better(yes I was there seeing it live). Bit of a shame the last game was quite anticlimatic, but I fully understand -why- MC did it, he saw the opportunity and took it, anyone would with 15k on the line.
I, myself, would have preferred a long macro game to settle it all, but regardless, we got to see sick cool games, both White-Ra and MC played great through the tourney and they both deserved the win, and MC got out on top, so grats to him!
Funny, I thought the last game was quite climatic.
It was a damn good bo 5 for white ra and mc fans. It was really thrilling and the last match was just disappointing. The disappointment changed to anger. Whitera made the mistake not to scout a map where proxy gateways are really nothing new. Yes this was a mistake and yes mc abused it. And no he couldn't know that whitera wouldn't scout it. You can't know that even if you study your oponents play style for weeks. In such a game is everything possible and mc won because statistical whitera do not scout after pylon. There was also luck involved.
Many people don't undestand that such a forward planning is a skill too. Not only micro and macro define a game but also the preparation. I wouldn't call him a strategic genius... sry but it really wasn't a complicated plan... .
The point is there are player who think in that situation: "I know that he wouldn't scout my proxy but i don't want to win the tournament by luck and statistical possibility. I want to show a good game and win by beeing a better player on the field." These players are more likeable because they seem to be "fair".
Not going to lie, I laughed ridiculously hard at some of the posts in this topic. Mostly the ones with the red text at the end.
Did I particularly enjoy that last game? Not really.
Would I have done the same? Hell yeah.
Did I learn a lot? YES. That is a beautiful demonstration of playing BOx and reading your opponent. I hate cheese when I see it on the ladder because I think it's dumb to cheese on the ladder, but in tournaments it's completely justified and useful in series situations, and a read and execution in that situation is just masterful, and I really feel like I learned a lot to incorporate in that series.
If you guys are confused where all the Bm came from, check the Dreamhack tournament thread... it was crazy and you can see how many fans of whitera there were apparently since posts blew up as white-ra was up 2-0 and then died down and blew up at 2-3 saying stuff like MC doesn't deserve that win, or im no longer a fan of MC anymore or how if he played a normal game MC would have lost. It was pretty sad.
Anyways in the end, MC won, White-Ra lost. No excuses. Both are great players.
Why are people saying, "pure luck, had Ra scouted MC would instalose" etc? Unless White-Ra scouted the proxy VERY early, defending it still would be extremely difficult; like if he did a standard 10-ish supply scout straight into MCs base, he would be in a very tough spot, nevermind not scouting it at all. Even scouting the Gateways before they are up doesn't really guarantee you the win in such a situation, so yea...
Wasn't really any suspense at all in that game, everyone knew it was over like 40 sec into the game, it was a dissapointing final. Awesome games before it, but a terribly boring last game, in my oppinion, ofcourse.
On April 15 2011 21:38 mahO wrote: I'm really not a "White Ra" fan, well i'm not anyone fan I guess except IdrA, this guy will always make me laugh in this polite scene, but MC got outplayed badly, and went for the cheese, of course it is valid, of course nobody can blame him for playing the win when 15k is on the line, but man this guy is cocky, he's not the best player at all, even if his fan club (=90% of the protoss) say so, he's a lot weaker than we might think. So yeah it's normal what he did, but man he's really annoying me with the "i'm sc2 god" attitude. This guy will fall, badly, and man i will laugh
Nice job accusing MC of being outplayed and going for cheese when there's a very credible post right above yours that pretty much refutes the idea completely. You couldn't have posted at a more perfect time if you wanted to look ignorant.
Yeah he has been outplayed, and oh god I looked ignorant on TL! Man my life is over. WhiteRa did the huge mistake of not expecting a cheese on g4 & 5, he over probed, didnt scout enough, and played quite bad, it was like he thought this was already won. But yeah, MC didnt impress me at all during this tournament. And yeah very credible post from an ex team mate of his who insults everyone that disagree with him, way to go tard thats how you debate. And seriously, WhiteRa isnt really solid, there is huge mistakes in his play, I remember seing him supply block himself at the worse moment ever (4 gate at his ramp), mis microed some units at early stages, and yeah MC didnt win him in a convincing way. Therefor, yeah, MC isnt a sc2 god like everyone tends to say, he's a top player worldwide, for sure, but so far from being unbeatable, we'll talk about it in 2 month anyway, dear genius, I'm so sorry for exposing my ignorance to you, you made me laugh tho
Edit: and about IdrA, I like his style, I dont over estimate him like a lot of people do, he just makes me laugh as a cocky player in his interview and reactions, MC is just cocky and there is nothing funny there, but yeah you could compare the two, IdrA is just entertaining
Wait, so first you mention many mistakes that WhiteRa made (and that MC didn't make, I might add), and you claim that MC got outplayed? Do you even know what the word "outplayed" means? I don't mean that in a condescending way; I'm legitimately curious, because I can't fathom how someone could say that Player A got outplayed by Player B, then elaborate on that statement by mentioning all the mistakes that Player B made that helped Player A win. Avoiding mistakes that your opponent makes and capitalizing on them for a win is pretty much the definition of "outplayed", so it seems that you have things backwards. So yes, you did expose your ignorance, and you continue to do so.
On April 16 2011 06:11 Contagious wrote: the object is to win a fucking game. Why is everyone bitching? lol
It's as if people don't expect someone to cheese in a pvp. Hopefully an admin combs through here and bans people, because people need to learn that cheese is part of the game - even at the highest level.
(Boxer bunker rushed 3 times to win an osl over yellow, yet we look back at that and think its brilliant. What MC did was pretty damn smart/ballsy. So props to him .)
Those of you who don't like cheese can give feedback to Blizzard. MC didn't do the source code for SC2.
Don't blame MC for using what he thought was optimum strategy within the rules of the game against White-Ra. Should MC play suboptimal in a game for $15K when he does this for a living?
I was cheering for White-Ra but I have alot of respect for a great player like MC.
I was cheering for WhiteRa aswell but the fact he lost doesnt make me bitter towards MC at all.
Hes a solid protoss and a very intense player...with 15.000 on the line he just went for the kill and im sure that plenty of the "offended virgins" insisting on this subject would do the same thing if they had to make a clutch decision. Its his job on the line and the more he profits from it the more personal benefits he will reap.
Congrats MC, can only hope for a BO15 between you and WhiteRa soon
Cheesing in SC2 is a very sensitive subject because it's so powerful. Some people keep saying "because the game is not figured out yet". But IMHO, it will be here forever unless Blizz removes the underlining mechanics that caused this in the first place. No amount of units tweaking will fix the power of cheese in sc2.
MC did the right thing, it's part of the game. To accept SC2 both as a spectator and a player, you must accept cheese.
LOL I hate that article. Read it years ago. Marred by a sense of elitism and contradictions.
First half: "Lol don't make arbitrary rules scrub"
Second part: "Don't use Akuma, or certain exploits... we can make these rules because we are pro and therefore JUSTIFIED"
What?
He admits to grey area stuff like this though. Haha
The first and second parts are not contradictory at all if you actually pay attention to what he's saying. There's a difference between arbitrary rules made to protect "fun" and rules designed to prevent the cheapening of the game with unbeatable strats (the key word being unbeatable, not "op"). The second part is meant to lay out that certain aspects of a game can be legitimately broken, and if they can't be patched, they should be avoided by the players or risk every game being defined by a single, dominating strategy.
If one aspect makes the overall game incredibly shallow by besting every other strat, that's the point where you patch it out/ban it.
For example, it would be completely broken if sentries started with mana for psi storm (like in the blizzard april fool's patch notes) and it would make 2/3rds of the game really shallow and would therefore have to be banned/patched out. Also, 150 mineral spawning pools for delicious 6pool action every game.
The fact that MC even acknowledged it means they won. Best solution to trolls is not to call them out or try to reason with them logically, just ignore them and they'll realize how futile it is.
On April 16 2011 07:40 mmdmmd wrote: Cheesing in SC2 is a very sensitive subject because it's so powerful. Some people keep saying "because the game is not figured out yet". But IMHO, it will be here forever unless Blizz removes the underlining mechanics that caused this in the first place. No amount of units tweaking will fix the power of cheese in sc2.
MC did the right thing, it's part of the game. To accept SC2 both as a spectator and a player, you must accept cheese.
Uh.. Cheesing wasn't all that weak in sc:bw either you know.
imo haters are just hating because it was a close series. If white-ra didn't get that lucky probe in MC's base game 1, then it woulda been 3-1 probably, and people would be satisfied...
On April 16 2011 06:11 Contagious wrote: the object is to win a fucking game. Why is everyone bitching? lol
People are angry cause they've lost to this build on the ladder at least once and feel disheartened that it surfaced in a professional level tournament. People expect a lot not only from people that run tournaments but also the players to keep the community entertained. At least nobody in this thread lost $15,000 losing to this build but they sure act like it.
I'm not angry because I expect fools to whine, but if any of them read this understand that if there was no threat of cheese people could open with exploitable builds every single game, you wouldn't tell a poker player 4bet bluffing was dirty, or maybe you would who knows.
The objective for a professional player is to win the match (herp derp). If this means you have to do an early all-in (people call it cheese) or a macro-game, you just do it. At this high of a level, it is all about thinking outside the box and playing mindgames with your opponent, assuming the level of skill is even.
Look at Boxer in 2004 in the Ever OSL Semi-Finals for example, he bunker rushed Yellow 3 times because he KNEW Yellow was going to fast expand and won the game no problem. Tons of people disliked his way of winning back then, just like some people do right now.
Almost every top player will do some early pushes/all-ins every now and then to throw people off or to take advantage of a certain situation.Too bad some people don’t realize this and continue BM'ing and hating instead of enjoying and understanding the brilliance of one’s tactical play.
To all those ignorant people: ‘Don’t hate but appreciate.’
Speaking of MC....Apparently hes playing on the North American Server now!!! I just played him on ladder....got roflstomped. Hes currently 18-0 in masters. Hes probably prepping for NASL, and I doubt this is a fake account.
On April 16 2011 10:59 chaopow wrote: Speaking of MC....Apparently hes playing on the North American Server now!!! I just played him on ladder....got roflstomped. Hes currently 18-0 in masters. Hes probably prepping for NASL, and I doubt this is a fake account.
This is ridiculous, where are all these haters and BMer everyone speaks of? Sure the LR thread blew up for a short while by disappointed Whitera fans as an immediate reaction but that's only natural, it just shows people are engaged and cares. I bid you to go down to a English or pub right after England loses 2-1 to Germany in the WC and where Germany scored the winning goal in some smart but 'abusive' way(I don't know what the equivalent to cheese would be in football but that's not the point). The fans there would make this LR thread look like a MC love letter and I can only wish SC2 will reach that stage of engagement one day.
That doesn't mean they can't see the brilliance of Germanys play when things have calmed down, but an immediate reaction is just normal and to be completely honest I haven't seen more than a handful BM posts since an hour or so after the final game.
edit: What I'm getting at is that there needs to be room for emotions, both from players and fans. Contrary to the majority here on TL it seems, I don't want SC2 to be like cricket(I'm ignorant to the sport and purely stereotyping) where you applaud your opponent politely then sits down for a cup of tea and biscuits.
Hell to the no, I want fist pumps and roars from the victor and tears and broken keyboards from the loser. I want the fans to jump up their seats and go crazy when their player wins and devastation, disbelief and frustration when he lose.
On April 16 2011 15:10 fearus wrote: Did Boxer get BM'd when he bunker rushed yellOw 3 times?
Think about it.
I wasn't around at the time so I wouldn't know but I'd guess a majority of fans were rooting for Boxer at the time? In my example above, if you'd gone to a German pub you would only hear praise of their clever and smart play. That's just how it works.
Of course, things have gone to far when people resort to harassment and physical violence but SC2 is light years from that point. We're talking about some angry posts at an internet forum, I think people need to get some perspective on things.
On April 16 2011 15:10 fearus wrote: Did Boxer get BM'd when he bunker rushed yellOw 3 times?
Think about it.
I wasn't around at the time so I wouldn't know but I'd guess a majority of fans were rooting for Boxer at the time? In my example above, if you'd gone to a German pub you would only hear praise of their clever and smart play. That's just how it works.
Of course, things have gone to far when people resort to harassment and physical violence but SC2 is light years from that point. We're talking about some angry posts at an internet forum, I think people need to get some perspective on things.
Well we're quickly closing the gap on the harrassment department if people start tweeting shit on MC just because he won a game vs a player with a fanbase. It's, I assume, the newer members of the community who still don't understand what the game is about who're doing these kind of things. Shut it down fast before it spreads.
EPT
he was not doing too well lately for him to get that kind of news ;(
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZLIvu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/7252904/Haters-Gonna-Hate.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=oGsMC-DreamHack)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zUWbI.jpg)
.)
