EPTNASL's Tal'darim Altar review - Page 9
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On April 15 2011 17:22 Noocta wrote: Yeah, rocks everywhere who don't let zerg expand when he wants will obviously favor zerglings. The same zerglings who take forever to take out rocks. On the same map where gold's rock create chock point in the middle of a use to be wide open map. Zerglings are the most cost-efficient rock-killer in the game (except Reapers maybe), provided there's space around the rock for all of them to fit... as there should be for rocks in open spaces in the early game. I hate destructible rocks but Zerg is much faster to kill them than Protoss. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On April 15 2011 17:38 Severedevil wrote: Zerglings are the most cost-efficient rock-killer in the game (except Reapers maybe), provided there's space around the rock for all of them to fit... as there should be for rocks in open spaces in the early game. I hate destructible rocks but Zerg is much faster to kill them than Protoss. not when you're trying to have a quick third... 10 lings with no +1 attack = ages to finish killing a rock. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On April 15 2011 17:38 Severedevil wrote: Zerglings are the most cost-efficient rock-killer in the game (except Reapers maybe), provided there's space around the rock for all of them to fit... as there should be for rocks in open spaces in the early game. I hate destructible rocks but Zerg is much faster to kill them than Protoss. Protoss don't lose economy by making units in the early game. The main anwser to a Terran / protoss FE is to take a very early third. Rocks everywhere deny that, because you'll have to make ling instead of drones to kill rocks, which delay your expand timing and slow your economy... | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
 come on blizz take em out and see what happens. | ||
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Eeevil
Netherlands359 Posts
Ensnare chose the wrong army composition, at least it all started out pretty well for him, making a huge bio ball. Then he commenced to roam about the map doing fuck all and partying on mapcontrol so Incontrol could build up to a zillion colossi wich kind of counter the bio ball, a bio ball that, at that time, was so big there was no supply left for vikings. So basically Ensnare made a huge army for incontrol to kill. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On April 15 2011 17:07 NoobSkills wrote: In my job I don't get to say X client likes reports in Y fashion, so all clients get the report in Y fashion. You learn to adapt, money is on the line if you choose to not study the 3 maps you're about to play on then it is your fault. Correct, but each league wants to be #1, so in the end they get to make the decisions about the starcraft map pool. Hopefully we wind up letting korea make the maps and USA/Euro win them Zerglings. 1. GSL make map pool decisions taking into community feedback (the play tested so many maps on Gisado's KOTH and even more in GSTL 1 before putting it into the GSL). Yeah, sure you can force them to play on that map, but a well-organized league (particularly since SC2 is a very community based game) takes into account player/community feedback before forcing them onto players, otherwise they'll just use regular standard versions. This version of Tal'darim as you probably know is not standard. I might be wrong, but it doesn't seem like the NASL did that. I would really like to know the decision-making behind why the NASL chose the maps the way they did, because it is just questionable. 2. How does using a non-standard (and I must say outdated) variation of the map make this league #1? 3. A slower 3rd expo vs forge FE is very detrimental to Zergs. It forces them to baneling bust. And as cool as baneling busts are, seeing Zerg's limited to that is just bad. Also this is the same issue I have with the LE version of the map. The rocks just eliminate options for Zergs/Protoss to deal with tanks sieging at the natural. I mean, sac-ing the natural and taking the third instead might not be the best option to deal with tanks at the natural, but it is still an option and provides better diversity of play. 4. I'm not really turning this into a balance discussion/strategy, but it is pretty clear that the best version of the map is the GSL version (played in GSL 5). The main issue for me is a big competition choosing to use non-standard, outdated variations of a map, when clearly it is far better to use more standard versions. On April 15 2011 17:32 aScaris wrote: according to liquipedia this is the original map (just for the comparison): ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/1/13/Tal%27Darim_Altar.jpg/600px-Tal%27Darim_Altar.jpg) What he meant was the original "beta" version of the map which was tested in Gisado's KOTH before it was first used in GSTL 1. On April 15 2011 17:38 Severedevil wrote: Zerglings are the most cost-efficient rock-killer in the game (except Reapers maybe), provided there's space around the rock for all of them to fit... as there should be for rocks in open spaces in the early game. I hate destructible rocks but Zerg is much faster to kill them than Protoss. But 2 base Zerg vs a 2 base Protoss = difficult for Zerg. Protoss can delay their third expansion as long as possible, where else if Protoss fast expanded before the Zerg (which they can do easily nowadays with Forge FE, Zerg's need the third base or have to baneling bust/other all-in). | ||
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NHY
1013 Posts
1) In-base expansion has 2 gas 2) Natural expansion has a rock 3) There a gold expansion Just like when Crevasse first came out back in January. I guess NASL believes months of testing by progamers in korea and GOM means nothing. Unlike some players, there are players in NASL who competes in other leagues which uses 'original' or 'standerd' version of these maps and viewers who follow them. At least call these maps something else so players and viewers are not confused. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
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Elothis
111 Posts
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
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zere
Germany1287 Posts
On April 17 2011 18:21 NHY wrote: So, it turns out that NASL changed Crevasse too. 3 things I noticed: 1) In-base expansion has 2 gas 2) Natural expansion has a rock 3) There a gold expansion Just like when Crevasse first came out back in January. I guess NASL believes months of testing by progamers in korea and GOM means nothing. I've added Crevasse 0.8 to TLPD, can someone confirm that this is the correct picture of the map? | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
backwater gulch, crossfire, modified tal'darim. gsl put a lot of effort into the maps they have. Seems like MLG did too. and for some reason nasl took 3 maps nobody else ever uses. | ||
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
The expansion are to easily secured. This leads to a three base turtle I-don't-move-until-I-am-maxed game. The center is too open, and there are no multiple paths. By comparison, GSL crevasse is way better. Inbase expo has less minerals and only 1 gas. The third is harder to secure. There are a lot of possibilties to harass by air. The center has an interesting layout. By taking out the rocks, multiple pathways are created, which make army placement and movement important, as well as counterattacks possible. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Same with Crevasse. | ||
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Silkath
United Kingdom102 Posts
 The really open centre is cool though. Nice for surrounds and makes for some great tank leap-frogging style slow pushes. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
NASL really HAS TO ask some progamers about the mappool. Right know i think it's a joke. I even stopped watching some NASL games because the games turned out to make the games ridicolously bad. How can anyone think moar rocks and a 2nd with 2 geysirs which is unattackable (Crevasse) is balanced? | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Hell, imagine a terran taking all four golds for some reason. The sheer amount of marines coming from his barracks suggest that even the old and sick people get recruited to the militairy just for the sake of spending minerals. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
i hope they realize its not too late to fix things :p | ||
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