|
hmm i dont claim to have the answer to this but i do claim most of your arguments are dead wrong,
mainly units in SC1 had their MAX damage, even tho it only did full damage vs a certain unit type... for example ghosts list 10 damamge but hit for 2.5 on most units... likewise seige tanks say 70 but yeah its 35 vs light...
the other huge thing is the smart fire in SC2...
I think im going to go with SC2 on this one hmm but it is close...
edit: i mean it obviously is on a by unit basis and etc. etc. OP needs to specify conditions what 10 of every unit or something or just 1 on 1, 1 on 1 SC2 marine wins SC1 draggon and ling,
but if we are talking about like New SC2 units roach fucking poops on every SC1 unit, and maruder does teh same with terran
|
On April 14 2011 09:34 prodiG wrote:
...do you guys even know what scarabs, plague, cracklings and bw psi storm look like?
BW. Hands down. I'd take my hardass dragoon over these pansy-ass stalkers any day.
Quoted for truth. Miss Dragoons 
|
Thinking about it a second time, BW units are only awesome in the late game. SC2 early units are so damn effective, they can bum rush any of their counterparts. Even with 60hp scvs.
|
Starcraft 1 units, because Starcraft 2 units clump up so tightly that they get raped by any AOE.
|
On April 14 2011 14:20 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:34 prodiG wrote:
...do you guys even know what scarabs, plague, cracklings and bw psi storm look like?
BW. Hands down. I'd take my hardass dragoon over these pansy-ass stalkers any day. Quoted for truth. Miss Dragoons
Funny thing is Blink stalkers would be the de facto key unit in favoring SC2 protoss in any PvP against their P counterpart. Reavers will be sniped easily.
|
Another thing to throw out there... BW units were not under any sort of classifications like SC2 units are.. "armored" etc. Therefore, a portion of SC2 units would lose some of their damage.
|
On April 14 2011 13:18 Bear4188 wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Terran] +
BW SCV > SC2 SCV
In beta SC2 SCV was easily the greatest worker ever, alas Blizzard smashed it with the nerfhammer. Auto-repair is pretty sick though.
BW Economy <<< SC2 MULE
MULE so good. So good. OMG so good.
BW Marine < SC2 Marine
Sorta tough, the SC2 marine has a good bit more health, but loses the range upgrade. I think the improved AI and >12 control groups really tip the favor to SC2 marine though.
BW Firebat ? SC2 Marauder
Different units, I'd say the marauder is ultimately more useful though.
BW Ghost < SC2 Ghost
I miss lockdown but putting one of the stronger abilities (EMP) on the SC2 ghost is a huge boost, snipe is also very nice. Ghost also does more damage in general and is more accessible.
No BW counterpart < SC2 Reaper
At this time in the SC2 metagame it's hard to see what the final role of the Reaper will be. It certainly has awesome damage potential that leads me to think it will have a role for anyone who came micro them.
BW Medic >> SC2 Medivac
As a pure healers medics are definitely a better healer.
BW Vulture >> SC2 Hellion
Vultures are just plain obnoxious. Mines are super good. Though I think hellions will only get more and more scary as players include blue flame as a late game harassing tool.
BW Siege Tank ? SC2 Siege Tank
BW tank does sick damage, SC2 tank has greater splash radius, greater range, and smart targetting (IIRC with upgrades I believe the SC2 tank even comes out slightly ahead in damage vs "light" units). As a bonus the SC2 tank does sick damage in tank mode. Both are great units.
BW Goliath < SC2 Thor
Not sure I should even be comparing these two. Thors are fucking beastly. Beastly. Goliaths own the crap out of "armored" air, Thors own the crap out of "light" air. Tipping the scales is the application of the auto-repair SCV making Thors a frightening foe.
BW Wraith < SC2 Banshee
Dude. Have you seen what Banshee do to mineral lines?
BW Valkyrie < SC2 Viking
Well, Valkyries aren't completely useless. Vikings are the siege tanks of the sky, and can even land.
BW Dropship < SC2 Medivac
Delivering the transport abilities while not needing to sacrifice space for medics.
BW Science Vessel > SC2 Raven
I think it would be better to compare spells here. Probably not the correct comparisons, but w/e.
Irradiate > Seeker Missile
Seeker missile would be awesome but it's so dang slow, so irradiate wins simply by guaranteeing that it will actually do something, anything. When a missile does hit it is clearly better, obviously.
EMP >> Defense Turret
BW EMP so good. Defense turret so meh.
Defense Matrix < Point Defense Drone
Point defense drones are pretty awesome. Dragoons? Hydras? Yeah, that's what I thought. zap zap zap
BW Battlecruiser << SC2 Battlecruiser
Not even close.
BW Probe > SC2 Probe
BW Probe, most OP unit ever.
BW Zealot > SC2 Zealot
Legs > Charge, plus the BW zealot actually has a higher attack speed.
BW Dragoon > SC2 Stalker
This is a tough one to call. As a straight slugger the dragoon is obviously superior but the Stalker offers greater mobility and the very powerful blink ability.
BW No Counterpart << SC2 Sentry
Guardian shield = very strong
Force field = super strong
Hallucination = better than BW hallucination
BW High Templar > SC2 High Templar
BW storm is just so much better. Some ground is made up with smart casting and feedback in place of hallucinate. A few weeks ago the SC2 high templar with kaydarin amulet would have been a much more worthy foe.
BW Dark Templar < SC2 Dark Templar
Does more damage, what else do you want from a DT?
BW Archon > SC2 Archon
Don't think that needs an explanation
BW Dark Archon >> SC2 No Counterpart
Feedback is moved to the HT, maelstrom and mind control (with a massive nerf) to the infestor. Miss you red ball man.
BW No Counterpart << SC2 Immortal
Picture this: Immortal next to a shield battery.
BW Reaver ? SC2 Colossus
On the one hand you have ridiculous damage. On the other you have damage that you can be confident will actually connect and mobility. I think both of these units melt face.
BW Shuttle < SC2 Phase Prism
Warp-in gives the phase prism effectively unlimited capacity.
BW Observer < SC2 Observer
You get the sight upgrade for free!
BW Corsair ? SC2 Phoenix
Both of these have proven to be a huge pain in the ass for opponents. The Phoenix trades the splash for higher single target damage and the ability to pick off ground units with graviton beam.
BW Scout < SC2 Void Ray
BW Carrier < SC2 Carrier
The only thing superior about the BW carrier is that the game is at a point where players no how to survive while they get them out on the battlefield. Toe to toe you would see the insane damage of the SC2 carrier prevail.
BW Arbiter >> SC2 Mothership
Obviously as a singular unit the mothership is awesome. However the arbiter fills all the same roles (with different spell graphics) almost as effectively while being more accessible and faster, it only lacks the damage.
BW Larva < SC2 Larva According to liquipedia the SC2 larva actually has greater sight range.. no shit :| BW Zergling ? SC2 Zergling Gah. This is hard. The singular BW crackling is SOOOOOOOOOOO much better than its "evolved" SC2 offspring. One thing that has evolved is the zergling AI and its ability to attack in non-single-file form and surrounding enemies automatically. Since zerglings are hardly ever used alone I think it's a wash. Plus it mutates into the... BW Infested Terran << SC2 Baneling One is basically unattainable and does terrible terrible damage. The other is attainable, does terrible terrible damage, makes a cute plushie, and inspires multiple music videos. BW No Counterpart << SC2 Roach Not a fan of roaches BW Hydra > SC2 Hydra The BW hydra was obviously a much quicker unit, making it more effective as an all-purpose unit. SC2 hydra delivers awesome DPS. BW Lurker >>> SC2 No Counterpart Yeah. BW Ultralisk ? SC2 Ultralisk I'm having a tough time calling this one. Is it better to have more, weaker units or fewer, much strong ones :/ On second thought the SC2 Ultralisk under dark swarm would be stupid good. BW Defiler > SC2 Infestor Consume >>> Infested Terran Dark Swarm >>> Neural Parasite Plague > Fungal Growth Defiler would be my pick for best unit in either game. BW Overlord > SC2 Overlord BW Overlord > SC2 Overseer Starts with detection, makes better noises. Contaminate is pretty good though. BW Mutalisk ? SC2 Mutalisk One can stack, one has infinite selection. Both kick ass. BW Scourge >>> SC2 No Counterpart T_T BW Devourer > SC2 Corruptor Both have pretty terrible DPS but I'd say the devourer debuff is better than corruption. BW Guardian < SC2 Brood Lord Guardian by itself does awesome damage, but the brood lord makes up for it with the wall of broodlings that greatly hamper enemy movement and cause a lot of damage themselves. BW Queen << SC2 Queen No contest.
I think your analysis is better than others I've seen, but you still missed things.
BW Terran Econ vs mules:
You forgot that BW Terrans need half the SCVs for gas, and at every point in the game their SCVs are more efficient.
When the orbital builds at 15, for example, a BW Terran will have 13 SCVs. 15 SC2 workers bring in 75 minerals per trip, while 13 BW SCVs will bring 104 per trip=33% more. The difference continually gets larger, too. Once the mule is called down, it's worth like 3 SCVs=an additional 15 minerals per trip. By the time the orbital finishes, though, the BW player will have caught up in SCVs=an additional 16 minerals per trip.
BW econ wins because scans do not cause a sacrifice in economy, and each additional SCV brings more revenue, and full gas saturation requires 3 less SCVs and 50 less minerals (already makes up for a single mule at all times, at all bases with full gas saturation)
Valkyrie actually does more DPS than Viking, is cheaper, and has more HP.
BW ghost costs 25/75, that alone makes it better than the SC2 ghost, as you could have two ghosts locking things down pretty easily for less than the cost of one SC2 ghost. Tech time is longer, though, so it's all on preference.
Dropships>medivacs because of the 20% better movement rate. You have medics for healing, the increased rate of movement is mch more useful than an extra slot for one more marine.
Remember wraiths are faster than banshees and can hit air; this does make this one rather hazy.
Goliaths have a much better AA ROF, damage output, and movement speed than thors. Remember that BW Goliaths were never really used against Mutas (watch the recent JD vs Fantasy game to see how much Goliaths suck vs Mutas) but rather vs carriers and dropships. You don't need thors vs Mutas when you have irradiate and 75 mineral turrets.
Corsairs: you forgot that they have d-web.
DTs: wrong assessment here, BW DTs are better because they are cheaper, are way faster to tech to, and do not require a sacrifice in tech to be built.
Shuttles: nope, shuttles have more HP and so are the better choice here. You can also micro them more easily than warp prisms precisely because of this (and the way BW shuttles move) reavers complement shuttles better than any unit can in SC2.
Carriers: wrong assessment here too, the +2 armor is exactly why broodwar carriers are better, plus they can move while still attacking, and they heal the interceptors. The DPS difference doesn't matter with SC2 Carriers because in upgrade situations the BW carriers do more damage because the ROF is greater and the armor of the opponents is not as effective vs BW carriers.
Zerg larva: I actually give the edge to BW because in broodwar you can incorporate larvae/eggs into your simcity on certain maps. Morphing a unit will actually block the choke; I've seen Shine do it before.
Zerglings: broodwar counterpart, way better DPS and the nonclumping AI is better anyway.
Mutas: broodwar Mutas, you can stack them such that you can one-shot marines without taking any more than 10 damage or so. They also don't have to slow down to fire, and the whole point of Mutas is NOT massability, it's harassability (woot for making up words)
Broodwar ultralisk is better. Lasts longer (ESP with swarm) and is so much faster. No contest there, the SC2 ultra is nearly useless.
|
Since he took the SC2 vision of everything, I will try to take the BW vision, biased though I will sound I'm only balancing this fight.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Terran
SC2 Terran demolishes SC1 Terran. Why?
First, Marauders. Tier 1. Cheap. Massable. Sure, they take more damage from Siege Tanks, but they're like Dragoons. Except that Dragoons can't be healed by Medivacs; Marauders can. Also, Dragoons don't have stim. Dragoons can't slow units down.
A SC1 Terran will have to Siege-Expand just like in SC1 TvP. The difference is that they're up against MMM now, not Zealots and Dragoons. Medivacs can do tactical drops right on top of the tanks. And while SC2 Marines will take lots of damage from Vultures, they will take out the Siege Tanks quickly enough.
A SC1 Terran player will need to get Goliaths to even think about dealing this, thus delaying the expansion. By then, the SC2 player will have two Orbital Commands if not a third, with MULEs helping to pump out masses of MMM. The SC1 Terran will simply lose due to having a poorer economy.
This ends in a 10 minute game where the SC1 Terran never gets out of his base.
Medics are really good, here. While defending on the high ground medics could BLIND medvacs and deny vision up cliff.
Also 100% Stim should be very strong.
Also vultures are 25min spider mines deployers.
And ghosts... Lockdown medvacs? Lockdown tanks, thors, banshees, vikings, and then clean house? Irradiate against MMM? So many options...
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Protoss
SC2 Terran wins again, but it's closer this time.
The saving grace for the Protoss, for a time, is the Reaver. Dragoons and Zealots are as nothing against MMM, but Reavers are the stuff of the SC2 Terran's nightmares. Especially with the Reaver damage upgrade, they would easily allow the SC1 Protoss to expand and start to establish themselves on the map.
Well, except for one thing: Shuttles die quick and easily to Vikings. That 10 range is can easily prevent Shuttles from allowing Reavers to keep up with an advancing Protoss army. This will slow the Protoss down. While Reavers will allow the Protoss to establish themselves and possibly do some harassment, they won't be able to actually attack. SC1 Protoss will have to slow push, much like a SC1 Terran going Mech.
And the problem here is that, thanks to Orbital Commands, the SC2 Terran is going to have a bigger economy. He's going to have to find a solution to deal with Reavers if he wants to attack, but he could just as well play SK-Terran style with the Protoss: kill any expansions they try to take except their natural and starve them out. Or he can bring in some Vikings and Banshees. Banshees can quickly slay a few Reavers, and Vikings can kill the Shuttles. This allows the generally superior MMM combination to win the day.
20 min Macro game, with the Protoss starved out.
Dark Templars and Dark Archons (along with regular templar and archons) should be very strong against Terran. Mind control key units, harass with DTs, uber storms, MAELSTON...
Also, Carriers that healed interceptors! They would OWN a lot of stuff!
Also, a defensive protoss should use shield batteries and have no trouble holding stuff.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg
This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there.
SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs.
If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them.
The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit.
It's over in 10 minutes.
This one is a little trickier, although lings did a HUGE amount of damage back then, I'm not sure it would be enough, although I think it would.
Also, Hydras were SOOOOO cheap.... you could make so many of then!
Sunken colonies were so OP, too... I think zergs would do fine early game.
And once Lurkers+Defilers are out... I pity any SC2 Terran that stands in their way...
Also queens... I keep imagining a queen spawning broodling on a Thor! THE RAGE!!!!!!!
[/QUOTE]
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Terrans
The SC2 Protoss wins, but for only one reason.
Mech is the SC1 Terran's greatest strength. Long range, Spider Mines, etc. Lots of brutal damage, and you don't even have to micro to do it. Territory denial.
And this might have actually worked. If the SC2 Protoss didn't have one thing: Immortals.
Immortals wreck everything that comes out of the SC1 Terran's Factory. They deal 20 damage to Spider-Mines and have hit-scan attacks, so Spider-Mines only slow them down. And even if they miss one, it's nothing to worry about; it only did 10 damage. They can walk through a Siege Tank line and melt it in seconds.
This is exactly why Immortals were created: to make Terran Mech weaker. And they do their job very well.
The Terran now must respond. They could go mass Vultures. Being Medium units, they will only take 20 damage from Immortals, and if you get enough of them, they can crack the Immortals shields. But that's just not going to be enough. Vultures don't have AoE, so even if they kill the shields of one Immortal, there's 5 more.
The Protoss won't just be throwing down one or two Robos; they will have 5-6 pumping and Chrono-Boosting Immortals like it's going out of style. There won't even be Warpgate researched; so long as the SC1 Terran player insists on going Mech, the Protoss player will pump Immortals and kill them.
The only effective SC1 Terran response is going for Infantry. So the Protoss player will just switch to standard SC2 Protoss play: get a death ball of Colossus and Gateway units and just go fucking kill him.
The Terran could try for an Infantry/Mech mixture. But the death ball won't care.
I give the SC1 Terran 15 minutes before he GGs.
Immortals meet lockdown. You're dead now.
Colossus, meet lockdown too. Or Goliaths...
Damn, I don't think SC2 has a chance here.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Protoss
The SC2 Protoss has the edge primarily on economic grounds.
Dragoons, on paper, are better than Stalkers. But Stalkers do have one advantage: they're smaller. You can fit more Stalkers into a space than Dragoons. This means that there will be more Stalkers actually shooting in any fight than Dragoons. Zealots with Charge will also be pretty key in this fight, as they take half-damage from Dragoons. Throw in a few Immortals, assuming you can micro them reasonably, and the SC1 army must retreat.
To their Reavers. And then the SC2 army must retreat. Colossi can help, but Reavers just do so much damage. However, the SC2 Protoss can do what the SC2 Terran did: use Phoenixes to kill off the Shuttles. This will be more costly than the Terran version, since Phoenixes will have to get in range of the Dragoons to do this.
So the SC2 Protoss will effectively have the Colossus deathball. Blink Stalkers can snipe Reavers without Shuttles. Sentries can divide their army, making the number of Dragoons actually shooting even smaller. Therefore, SC1 Protoss will have no other options than to call for their biggest gun: Scouts.
And no, I'm not kidding. The only viable use for SC1 Scouts is to fight the SC2 Protoss deathball.
Scouts do lots of damage to flying units quickly. And they have a pretty solid quantity of Hp. So Scouts can be used the way SC2 Zerg use Corruptors against Colossi: take them out. Scouts can also help deal with Phoenixes and Void Rays if they appear. Scouts are expensive certainly, but there's no other option. High Templar are too high tech to get before the death ball kills you. And even if you got them, it doesn't do enough damage to stop a SC2 Protoss deathball. Plus, Stalkers with Blink can snipe them.
Essentially, this boils down to economy. Thanks to Chrono Boost and Warp-In (faster reinforcement), and the need for SC1 Scouts, the edge goes to the SC2 Protoss.
Dark templars would be key here, not only Reavers.
Not only DTs are awesome, Dark Archons would simply dominate Colossus/Immortals. Literally.
Carriers are MUCH better in BW and Arbiters... They own. Run some Dark Archons, Mind Control Colossus/Immortals from BEYOND their range and recall. Or simply bait the blink stalkers, stasis then, kill everything else, camp the stasis and obliterate SC2 army.
I see how SC2 can win, with Warpgate tech and all, but BW is at an advatage, I think.
[/QUOTE]
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Zerg
This actually looks really bad for the SC2 Protoss if the SC1 Zerg rushes. SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. However, SC1 Hydralisks aren't quite as strong at taking damage as SC2 Roaches, and they don't have Banelings, so there's no equivalent of a Baneling bust. The SC2 Protoss just needs to get Sentries and they should be able to hold off a rush.
If the Zerg tries to play a macrogame, they're going to run into some problems. Observers are much more available in SC2 than SC1 (no Observatory), so they can more easily deal with Lurkers. Hydralisks won't be a particularly dangerous unit, not with Zealots+Charge and the more compact Stalkers around.
So it's going to be Mutalisks vs. the deathball again. Except that the SC1 Zerg doesn't have the larva the SC2 Zerg has. Their Mutalisks will be later than most SC2 Protoss will see them. So the deathball will be much bigger, and the Mutalisk ball will be much smaller. Mutalisk micro can help, but it's not going to be enough.
Again, the SC2 Protoss wins on economy.
[edit]
Hey, I'm stupid. I forgot about Scourge.
So yea, the SC2 Protoss won't be building Colossi. Or anything that comes out of the Stargate. That sounds like a really good thing for the Zerg. But it's not enough.
This just forces the Protoss to use a pure Gateway army. Sentries can divide the Zerg army, allowing the Protoss to cut it into pieces. Stalkers can take out key Lurkers when necessary. And there's not much the Zerg can do.
Dark Swarm?
And I would find it hilarious when a queen pops an Immortal with Spawn Broodling! Or even a Colossus...
And Inside a DarkSwarm with plague... What could protoss do? Run for their lives, that's what.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Terran
The SC1 Terran will wall-in, as normal. They'll start massing up a few Marines, throw down an Academy. And then a bunch of Banelings will walk in, break the front, and the Zerg will just kill him.
SC1 Terrans simply have no effective answer to Banelings. They will just die. SC2 Zerg have too much larva, and can build very effective units at Tier 1. The Terran has no chance.
Game ends in 7 minutes.
How about some Spider Mines against Banes? And sim city until Siege tanks with ULTRAGEOUS damage simply annihilate banes?
Irradiate, again, will destroy zerg.
Also, Firebats would tank Baneling damage and With a lot of medics it would be difficult to break terran.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Protoss
SC2 Zerg will overwhelm them with Roaches.
This is the same problem. The SC1 Protoss simply doesn't have anything to deal with the sheer quantity of units that a two-base SC2 Zerg can build. They can drone hard for a bit, then build ridiculous numbers of stuff. Even a one-base Zerg will win with a Roach Rush. Dragoons may hurt more than Stalkers, but there will be more Roaches faster than they can deal with.
Again, the game ends in 7 minutes.
Here BW Protoss should try to rush to tech, while walling in and turtling with goons AND shield Batteries, or cannons + batterries.
If the protoss survives the rush, it is GG. Because DTs without Ovi Detection... Uber Storms... Carriers that heal interceptors.... Reavers against clumped up anything.... rape! Specially with lousy anti-air zerg has now, Shuttle + reaver micro... droll worthy.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Zerg
The SC1 Zerg will build a few Zerglings, maybe FE, start moving through Lair to Mutalisks, and then a bunch of Zerglings and Banelings will show up and they'll die.
It doesn't matter that the SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. What matters is that the SC2 player will have Banelings that melt Zerglings from either race. It simply isn't fair.
Another 7 minute game.
Don't forget how good sunken colonies were for defense... They would 1 shot banes! 3~4 sukens and you would need a absurd amount of banes.
Another thing is that Hydras could kite banelings without speed, I think.
And if BW zerg can tech to defilers or Lurkers... SC2 zerg doesn't have an answer to that until tier 3. And by then Queens can snipe ultras... And scourge vs Broodlords? lol
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote:
Ultimately, it's not fair for SC1. Even when the SC1 units have more DPS or whatever, the SC2 player has access to faster macro. MULES, ChronoBoost, and Spawn Larva are the biggest reasons why SC2 races would win most of their matches.
Aside from very early rushing, SC2 is WAY weaker... And SC1 has a lot of mechanics to delay/defend early pushes...
Shield Batteries and cannons, Bunkers, Spider Mines, Sunkens were all pretty good defenses and would be too much against SC2, I think.
|
On April 14 2011 14:21 RaiKageRyu wrote:
Thinking about it a second time, BW units are only awesome in the late game. SC2 early units are so damn effective, they can bum rush any of their counterparts. Even with 60hp scvs.
This is wrong. For the most part, BW units are by far more cost effective. If you don't believe me just look at the dps comparisons between BW units and their counterparts. There's a nice thread with a cool spreadsheet somewhere in the SC2 general forums if you're really interested in looking. The reason why SC2 units seem to be so damn strong in the early game is because of the macro mechanics.
I believe Lalush (?) wrote a very interesting article about the effect of the macro mechanics on resources and income on the early game. The general conclusion was that due to the new mechanics, players are met with a "mineral surplus" in the early game that diminishes as the game goes on. Essentially what happens is that the large influx of minerals in the early game (which was absent in BW) allows the SC2 races to create ridiculous composition of low tier, high mineral, low gas cost units/builds (ie 4gate, 3rax, etc...).
TL;DR: SC2 races are stronger early game but it's not that SC2 units are more cost effective, it's more due to the macro mechanics giving a large influx of minerals that causes this.
EDIT: In all honesty, I don't see how any SC2 race can really beat BW races, except for the exception of PvP simply because of how retardedly broken 4warpgate is to that matchup... But then again, you have to take into consideration that Zealots have more hp in BW and BW units do max damage to shields. So in PvP, BW units would do much higher dps for a majority of the fight regardless of unit classifications.
|
Brood war units would hands down destroy SC2 units. Reavers alone would be able to destory the terran MMM army, Speedlots>Chargelots, goons>Stalkers Tanks>Tank list goes on and on. LURKERS AND MINES= INSTANT RAPE.
|
Oh what I would do for a single reaver in pvt. Goodbye MM. Goodbye SCV's. Goodbye tanks.
|
I'm not sure how you're asking the question, but people saying cracklings, defilers or marauders, stalkers are arguing the minor points. If the question is who would win, then the biggest decider would be the macro mechanics and whether or not some of the new sc2 features are too overwhelming.
So chronoboost & warpgates, mules, queen inject/creep speed bonus would probably be the first things to examine. There's a good chance that would be the deciding factor.
|
On April 14 2011 12:35 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote:
Is this a serious question ^_^? Void ray's, Colossus , and Thors would own everything! :D, Idk though reavers were pretty damn good would be a close battle!
Void:
Terran: Lockdown
Zerg: Scourge
Protoss: Scout/Mind Control/Storm/Archons
Protoss can't hard counter like Terran and Zerg, but do pretty well
Colossus:
Terran: Lockdown/Siege tank/Goliath
Zerg: Scourge/Spawn Broodling (LOL)
Protoss: Mind Control/Scouts
Thors:
Terran: Lockdown (feeling a trend, here?)
Zerg: Spawn Broodling (LOL²)/Dark Swarm
Protoss: Mind Control/Disruption Web
Not that fearsome....
|
Early game T (SC2) v Z (BW) would be pretty interesting cause of something no one has mentioned. Mauraders vs Lurker. Before swarm is out, marauders rape lurkers just like the BW dragoon does, though perhaps the clumping would reduce the effectiveness slightly.
That said maurader, like the dragoon, would be pure shit against lings. Would be fun to see MMM ball versus lurker+ling before defiler is out.
Another interesting thing is that depending on dropship timing early SC2 terran bust vs zerg might be more dangerous if medivac arrived before spire as MM could be elevatored into the main in an attempt to ignore the sunken or two zerg usually gets pre muta.
EDIT: In all honesty, I don't see how any SC2 race can really beat BW races, except for the exception of PvP simply because of how retardedly broken 4warpgate is to that matchup... But then again, you have to take into consideration that Zealots have more hp in BW and BW units do max damage to shields. So in PvP, BW units would do much higher dps for a majority of the fight regardless of unit classifications.
4 gate would be pathetic vs BW protoss. A dt fast expand would force protoss to do some 2 or 3 gate robo every game, at which point we would probably see goon/reaver vs stalker/immortal or stalker/colossi.
|
On April 14 2011 09:42 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:40 prodiG wrote:
plague only did 300? i thought it reduced health to 1 no matter what O____________O "Only" 300, lol? That's more than most ground units have - the only units that are left with ANY health at all are carriers, battlecruisers, and ultralisks. It's like a ridiculously powerful version of FG, except you have to wait 'til tier 3.
Fungal Growth does more dps than plague did.
Plague does 4 dps, Fungal does 12 dps to armored targets AND locks them in place.
|
Unit wise BW hands down.
The game wise, SC2. No way BW can win when they only have 4 workers in the beginning.
|
I think this is a rather 1 sided fight lol. Starcraft 2 units are only better in large #'s because of the new AI behaiver. If the BW units had the same AI, they would fare on equal grounds as BW units.
There are a few units that would change this balance though. Reavers of course cause they would just destroy everything when they are so clumped up lol. Defilers with Dark Swarm would do numbers if you can clump like 20 units under it lol. And the old Psystorm in SC2? Omg it would just tare everything apart. What about Zerglings? They old Zergling DPS with smart surrounds and pathing. It wouldn't even be fare lol.
It is a very interesting debate, but I think BW units would do monumentally better.
|
On April 14 2011 14:24 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 13:18 Bear4188 wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Terran] +
BW SCV > SC2 SCV
In beta SC2 SCV was easily the greatest worker ever, alas Blizzard smashed it with the nerfhammer. Auto-repair is pretty sick though.
BW Economy <<< SC2 MULE
MULE so good. So good. OMG so good.
BW Marine < SC2 Marine
Sorta tough, the SC2 marine has a good bit more health, but loses the range upgrade. I think the improved AI and >12 control groups really tip the favor to SC2 marine though.
BW Firebat ? SC2 Marauder
Different units, I'd say the marauder is ultimately more useful though.
BW Ghost < SC2 Ghost
I miss lockdown but putting one of the stronger abilities (EMP) on the SC2 ghost is a huge boost, snipe is also very nice. Ghost also does more damage in general and is more accessible.
No BW counterpart < SC2 Reaper
At this time in the SC2 metagame it's hard to see what the final role of the Reaper will be. It certainly has awesome damage potential that leads me to think it will have a role for anyone who came micro them.
BW Medic >> SC2 Medivac
As a pure healers medics are definitely a better healer.
BW Vulture >> SC2 Hellion
Vultures are just plain obnoxious. Mines are super good. Though I think hellions will only get more and more scary as players include blue flame as a late game harassing tool.
BW Siege Tank ? SC2 Siege Tank
BW tank does sick damage, SC2 tank has greater splash radius, greater range, and smart targetting (IIRC with upgrades I believe the SC2 tank even comes out slightly ahead in damage vs "light" units). As a bonus the SC2 tank does sick damage in tank mode. Both are great units.
BW Goliath < SC2 Thor
Not sure I should even be comparing these two. Thors are fucking beastly. Beastly. Goliaths own the crap out of "armored" air, Thors own the crap out of "light" air. Tipping the scales is the application of the auto-repair SCV making Thors a frightening foe.
BW Wraith < SC2 Banshee
Dude. Have you seen what Banshee do to mineral lines?
BW Valkyrie < SC2 Viking
Well, Valkyries aren't completely useless. Vikings are the siege tanks of the sky, and can even land.
BW Dropship < SC2 Medivac
Delivering the transport abilities while not needing to sacrifice space for medics.
BW Science Vessel > SC2 Raven
I think it would be better to compare spells here. Probably not the correct comparisons, but w/e.
Irradiate > Seeker Missile
Seeker missile would be awesome but it's so dang slow, so irradiate wins simply by guaranteeing that it will actually do something, anything. When a missile does hit it is clearly better, obviously.
EMP >> Defense Turret
BW EMP so good. Defense turret so meh.
Defense Matrix < Point Defense Drone
Point defense drones are pretty awesome. Dragoons? Hydras? Yeah, that's what I thought. zap zap zap
BW Battlecruiser << SC2 Battlecruiser
Not even close.
BW Probe > SC2 Probe
BW Probe, most OP unit ever.
BW Zealot > SC2 Zealot
Legs > Charge, plus the BW zealot actually has a higher attack speed.
BW Dragoon > SC2 Stalker
This is a tough one to call. As a straight slugger the dragoon is obviously superior but the Stalker offers greater mobility and the very powerful blink ability.
BW No Counterpart << SC2 Sentry
Guardian shield = very strong
Force field = super strong
Hallucination = better than BW hallucination
BW High Templar > SC2 High Templar
BW storm is just so much better. Some ground is made up with smart casting and feedback in place of hallucinate. A few weeks ago the SC2 high templar with kaydarin amulet would have been a much more worthy foe.
BW Dark Templar < SC2 Dark Templar
Does more damage, what else do you want from a DT?
BW Archon > SC2 Archon
Don't think that needs an explanation
BW Dark Archon >> SC2 No Counterpart
Feedback is moved to the HT, maelstrom and mind control (with a massive nerf) to the infestor. Miss you red ball man.
BW No Counterpart << SC2 Immortal
Picture this: Immortal next to a shield battery.
BW Reaver ? SC2 Colossus
On the one hand you have ridiculous damage. On the other you have damage that you can be confident will actually connect and mobility. I think both of these units melt face.
BW Shuttle < SC2 Phase Prism
Warp-in gives the phase prism effectively unlimited capacity.
BW Observer < SC2 Observer
You get the sight upgrade for free!
BW Corsair ? SC2 Phoenix
Both of these have proven to be a huge pain in the ass for opponents. The Phoenix trades the splash for higher single target damage and the ability to pick off ground units with graviton beam.
BW Scout < SC2 Void Ray
BW Carrier < SC2 Carrier
The only thing superior about the BW carrier is that the game is at a point where players no how to survive while they get them out on the battlefield. Toe to toe you would see the insane damage of the SC2 carrier prevail.
BW Arbiter >> SC2 Mothership
Obviously as a singular unit the mothership is awesome. However the arbiter fills all the same roles (with different spell graphics) almost as effectively while being more accessible and faster, it only lacks the damage.
BW Larva < SC2 Larva According to liquipedia the SC2 larva actually has greater sight range.. no shit :| BW Zergling ? SC2 Zergling Gah. This is hard. The singular BW crackling is SOOOOOOOOOOO much better than its "evolved" SC2 offspring. One thing that has evolved is the zergling AI and its ability to attack in non-single-file form and surrounding enemies automatically. Since zerglings are hardly ever used alone I think it's a wash. Plus it mutates into the... BW Infested Terran << SC2 Baneling One is basically unattainable and does terrible terrible damage. The other is attainable, does terrible terrible damage, makes a cute plushie, and inspires multiple music videos. BW No Counterpart << SC2 Roach Not a fan of roaches BW Hydra > SC2 Hydra The BW hydra was obviously a much quicker unit, making it more effective as an all-purpose unit. SC2 hydra delivers awesome DPS. BW Lurker >>> SC2 No Counterpart Yeah. BW Ultralisk ? SC2 Ultralisk I'm having a tough time calling this one. Is it better to have more, weaker units or fewer, much strong ones :/ On second thought the SC2 Ultralisk under dark swarm would be stupid good. BW Defiler > SC2 Infestor Consume >>> Infested Terran Dark Swarm >>> Neural Parasite Plague > Fungal Growth Defiler would be my pick for best unit in either game. BW Overlord > SC2 Overlord BW Overlord > SC2 Overseer Starts with detection, makes better noises. Contaminate is pretty good though. BW Mutalisk ? SC2 Mutalisk One can stack, one has infinite selection. Both kick ass. BW Scourge >>> SC2 No Counterpart T_T BW Devourer > SC2 Corruptor Both have pretty terrible DPS but I'd say the devourer debuff is better than corruption. BW Guardian < SC2 Brood Lord Guardian by itself does awesome damage, but the brood lord makes up for it with the wall of broodlings that greatly hamper enemy movement and cause a lot of damage themselves. BW Queen << SC2 Queen No contest. Valkyrie actually does more DPS than Viking, is cheaper, and has more HP. ... BW ghost costs 25/75, that alone makes it better than the SC2 ghost, as you could have two ghosts locking things down pretty easily for less than the cost of one SC2 ghost. Tech time is longer, though, so it's all on preference. ... Remember wraiths are faster than banshees and can hit air; this does make this one rather hazy. ... Goliaths have a much better AA ROF, damage output, and movement speed than thors. Remember that BW Goliaths were never really used against Mutas (watch the recent JD vs Fantasy game to see how much Goliaths suck vs Mutas) but rather vs carriers and dropships. You don't need thors vs Mutas when you have irradiate and 75 mineral turrets. ... Shuttles: nope, shuttles have more HP and so are the better choice here. You can also micro them more easily than warp prisms precisely because of this (and the way BW shuttles move) reavers complement shuttles better than any unit can in SC2.
Actually, Valkyries are much more expensive at 200/125 as opposed to the 150/75 of the Viking. Plus, Vikings build faster at 42 seconds compared to 50 seconds for Valks. Although Valkyries do more more overall DPS, the nature of their volley-missile attack make it much different to micro compared to Vikings, which can easily kite and snipe most air units. However, Valks do have more health, armor, and speed, and I assume that they can tear apart clumped up Vikings that aren't microed. However, properly microed Vikings can snipe off quite a few Valkyries while limiting the better DPS of the Valks. Also, Vikings can just land and walk away, trolling the AA-only Valks.
As far as the BW Ghost vs SC2 Ghost goes, the SC2 Ghost is overall a much better combat unit despite the increase in cost. The SC2 Ghost has more health, does more DPS vs light units, and has EMP and Snipe, both of which can be quite useful against enemy spellcasters. Plus, Nukes don't cost supply in SC2, are cheaper, and can be built quicker even though they are overall weaker than their BW counterparts. Nevertheless, Lockdown is a tough spell to deal with, though the gas investment is quite questionable.
Though Wraiths are overall a much more flexible unit compared to Banshees, they have a much more inferior air to ground attack. Though both units cost the same and have the same build time, it takes the lasers of 3 Wraiths to equal the damage output of a single volley of Banshee missiles, thus making Wraiths inferior harassment aircraft despite their AA attack, greater speed, and ability to cloak. However, their AA attack do make them quite useful against a multitude of air units, though this overlaps the Wraith's role with that of the slightly cheaper Viking.
As far as the Goliath vs Thor comparison goes, it is true that Goliaths are overall better AA units. However, I've usually considered the Viking to be the spiritual successor to the Goliath since both have similar range, DPS, and AA roles to a degree. Although Goliaths tear apart capital ships and other aircraft, their mobility is limited due to the fact that they are ground-based units that share the retarded pathfinding of the Dragoon. Therefore, aircraft can often abuse the immobility of Goliaths by abusing cliffs and terrain. Not so for the Viking, which is not limited by terrain differences. Overall, I feel that the Viking is a better AA unit compared to the Goliath, especially against capital ships. However, the Viking's air-to-ground transformation does make it much less flexible when dealing with ground threats. (basically, I think Vikings are flying Goliaths)
As far as the Shuttle vs Warp Prism comparison goes, both units technically have the same amount of total hitpoints at 80/60 and 100/40 health/shields for the Shuttle and Warp Prism respectively. The Warp Prism builds faster, also has a speed upgrade, and has the ability to warp in units, which makes it a potent force despite the lack of complementary Reavers. Plus, Warp Prism + Storm is an extremely underused harassment tactic in SC2. Overall, the Shuttle is a better harassment tool with its complementary Reavers, but the Warp Prism's Phase mode gives it much more depth with the ability to warp in units and hide tech buildings.
|
Holy hell why are people actually saying SC2?
BW was balanced only by it's imbalanced units. SC2 has no chance.
|
dark swarm vs terran LOL
some people would still say terran imba
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
