There's a map for this in the custom maps section.
Irradiate kind of removes the point of autoclumping zerglings/banelings ( 8.33/sec + game is played on faster so it's very hard to split them in time without dying )
Overlords aren't detectors and requires time+resources to morph to overseers ( Wraiths/moves same speed as mutas/patrol microed/ have 2 more range and quicker cooldowns in air attacks than mutalisks + can shoot without deacceleration ) SC2 mutas always have to deaccelerate while shooting targets ( even if they are in front of them )
Valkyries are fine and do 6x8 AoE in a 3x3 matrix vs air ( vikings = 0 armor / slightly longer range and slower ms / single target / less damage / less hp )
Dropships move at 3.094 ( 1.101 x worker speed ) instead of 2.50 so they could drop and run pretty well
The zealots have 10 more shields and the dragoons have 20 more HP + both of these can regen slightly and might be advantageous for them early in the game. Goons also do 20 instead of 14 vs another stalker/goon. The other player's shields would regen faster out of combat if they do make it out alive though.
The lings only in SC2 only have 1.90 attacks/second vs 3.00 attacks/second ( without adrenaline in both ) You'd a few more lings than the other guy does and getting lings very early is quite hard to get...
Tanks at 85 damage kills stalkers in 2 hits from 3 hits ( they don't necessarily have to attack a immortal with sufficient micro... unless you want them to be played with A-move )
Lockdown on mechanical units might be interesting given the smart cast mechanics... you could just hit 12-16 units in a second and they can't fight back.
Corsairs do well to prevent ground units from attacking ( disruption web ) and DA could simply stun the zerg army.
Hallucination can be cast on enemies or friendly units ( and always spawns 2 of the target unit ) + these ones can't be differentiated by the other player even if they did have detectors compared to the Sentry-hallucination.
The range upgrade is already given in SC2 ( range 5 instead of 4+1 )
Arbiter moving significantly faster than the mothership+ you can get a few of them to freeze entire armies for 40 seconds ( real seconds )/recall on a cheaper unit ( Overseers require time+resources instead of Overlords as detectors )
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote: This post will probably take this more seriously than the OP intended, but I don't care.
I'm not going to judge this on a unit-by-unit comparison. This is race vs. race. SC1 race X vs. SC2 race Y. Also, note that this is not about unit quality. This is not about which race has the best units or the most interesting units. This is about which race would win in a fight.
Also, some translation conventions are in order. SC1 attacks that are Concussive deal max damage to SC2 Light units, and deal minimal damage to non-Light units. So Vultures will do 20 damage to Marines, but 5 damage to Banelings (due to being Light nor Armored).
Similarly, SC2 attacks with bonus vs. Armored will be triggered against Large SC1 units. SC2 attacks with bonus vs. Light will be triggered against Small SC1 units. Bonsues against Massive are not triggered.
Now, let's talk about matchups:
SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Terran
SC2 Terran demolishes SC1 Terran. Why?
First, Marauders. Tier 1. Cheap. Massable. Sure, they take more damage from Siege Tanks, but they're like Dragoons. Except that Dragoons can't be healed by Medivacs; Marauders can. Also, Dragoons don't have stim. Dragoons can't slow units down.
A SC1 Terran will have to Siege-Expand just like in SC1 TvP. The difference is that they're up against MMM now, not Zealots and Dragoons. Medivacs can do tactical drops right on top of the tanks. And while SC2 Marines will take lots of damage from Vultures, they will take out the Siege Tanks quickly enough.
A SC1 Terran player will need to get Goliaths to even think about dealing this, thus delaying the expansion. By then, the SC2 player will have two Orbital Commands if not a third, with MULEs helping to pump out masses of MMM. The SC1 Terran will simply lose due to having a poorer economy.
This ends in a 10 minute game where the SC1 Terran never gets out of his base.
SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Protoss
SC2 Terran wins again, but it's closer this time.
The saving grace for the Protoss, for a time, is the Reaver. Dragoons and Zealots are as nothing against MMM, but Reavers are the stuff of the SC2 Terran's nightmares. Especially with the Reaver damage upgrade, they would easily allow the SC1 Protoss to expand and start to establish themselves on the map.
Well, except for one thing: Shuttles die quick and easily to Vikings. That 10 range is can easily prevent Shuttles from allowing Reavers to keep up with an advancing Protoss army. This will slow the Protoss down. While Reavers will allow the Protoss to establish themselves and possibly do some harassment, they won't be able to actually attack. SC1 Protoss will have to slow push, much like a SC1 Terran going Mech.
And the problem here is that, thanks to Orbital Commands, the SC2 Terran is going to have a bigger economy. He's going to have to find a solution to deal with Reavers if he wants to attack, but he could just as well play SK-Terran style with the Protoss: kill any expansions they try to take except their natural and starve them out. Or he can bring in some Vikings and Banshees. Banshees can quickly slay a few Reavers, and Vikings can kill the Shuttles. This allows the generally superior MMM combination to win the day.
20 min Macro game, with the Protoss starved out.
SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg
This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there.
SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs.
If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them.
The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit.
It's over in 10 minutes.
SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Terrans
The SC2 Protoss wins, but for only one reason.
Mech is the SC1 Terran's greatest strength. Long range, Spider Mines, etc. Lots of brutal damage, and you don't even have to micro to do it. Territory denial.
And this might have actually worked. If the SC2 Protoss didn't have one thing: Immortals.
Immortals wreck everything that comes out of the SC1 Terran's Factory. They deal 20 damage to Spider-Mines and have hit-scan attacks, so Spider-Mines only slow them down. And even if they miss one, it's nothing to worry about; it only did 10 damage. They can walk through a Siege Tank line and melt it in seconds.
This is exactly why Immortals were created: to make Terran Mech weaker. And they do their job very well.
The Terran now must respond. They could go mass Vultures. Being Medium units, they will only take 20 damage from Immortals, and if you get enough of them, they can crack the Immortals shields. But that's just not going to be enough. Vultures don't have AoE, so even if they kill the shields of one Immortal, there's 5 more.
The Protoss won't just be throwing down one or two Robos; they will have 5-6 pumping and Chrono-Boosting Immortals like it's going out of style. There won't even be Warpgate researched; so long as the SC1 Terran player insists on going Mech, the Protoss player will pump Immortals and kill them.
The only effective SC1 Terran response is going for Infantry. So the Protoss player will just switch to standard SC2 Protoss play: get a death ball of Colossus and Gateway units and just go fucking kill him.
The Terran could try for an Infantry/Mech mixture. But the death ball won't care.
I give the SC1 Terran 15 minutes before he GGs.
SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Protoss
The SC2 Protoss has the edge primarily on economic grounds.
Dragoons, on paper, are better than Stalkers. But Stalkers do have one advantage: they're smaller. You can fit more Stalkers into a space than Dragoons. This means that there will be more Stalkers actually shooting in any fight than Dragoons. Zealots with Charge will also be pretty key in this fight, as they take half-damage from Dragoons. Throw in a few Immortals, assuming you can micro them reasonably, and the SC1 army must retreat.
To their Reavers. And then the SC2 army must retreat. Colossi can help, but Reavers just do so much damage. However, the SC2 Protoss can do what the SC2 Terran did: use Phoenixes to kill off the Shuttles. This will be more costly than the Terran version, since Phoenixes will have to get in range of the Dragoons to do this.
So the SC2 Protoss will effectively have the Colossus deathball. Blink Stalkers can snipe Reavers without Shuttles. Sentries can divide their army, making the number of Dragoons actually shooting even smaller. Therefore, SC1 Protoss will have no other options than to call for their biggest gun: Scouts.
And no, I'm not kidding. The only viable use for SC1 Scouts is to fight the SC2 Protoss deathball.
Scouts do lots of damage to flying units quickly. And they have a pretty solid quantity of Hp. So Scouts can be used the way SC2 Zerg use Corruptors against Colossi: take them out. Scouts can also help deal with Phoenixes and Void Rays if they appear. Scouts are expensive certainly, but there's no other option. High Templar are too high tech to get before the death ball kills you. And even if you got them, it doesn't do enough damage to stop a SC2 Protoss deathball. Plus, Stalkers with Blink can snipe them.
Essentially, this boils down to economy. Thanks to Chrono Boost and Warp-In (faster reinforcement), and the need for SC1 Scouts, the edge goes to the SC2 Protoss.
SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Zerg
This actually looks really bad for the SC2 Protoss if the SC1 Zerg rushes. SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. However, SC1 Hydralisks aren't quite as strong at taking damage as SC2 Roaches, and they don't have Banelings, so there's no equivalent of a Baneling bust. The SC2 Protoss just needs to get Sentries and they should be able to hold off a rush.
If the Zerg tries to play a macrogame, they're going to run into some problems. Observers are much more available in SC2 than SC1 (no Observatory), so they can more easily deal with Lurkers. Hydralisks won't be a particularly dangerous unit, not with Zealots+Charge and the more compact Stalkers around.
So it's going to be Mutalisks vs. the deathball again. Except that the SC1 Zerg doesn't have the larva the SC2 Zerg has. Their Mutalisks will be later than most SC2 Protoss will see them. So the deathball will be much bigger, and the Mutalisk ball will be much smaller. Mutalisk micro can help, but it's not going to be enough.
Again, the SC2 Protoss wins on economy.
[edit]
Hey, I'm stupid. I forgot about Scourge.
So yea, the SC2 Protoss won't be building Colossi. Or anything that comes out of the Stargate. That sounds like a really good thing for the Zerg. But it's not enough.
This just forces the Protoss to use a pure Gateway army. Sentries can divide the Zerg army, allowing the Protoss to cut it into pieces. Stalkers can take out key Lurkers when necessary. And there's not much the Zerg can do.
SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Terran
The SC1 Terran will wall-in, as normal. They'll start massing up a few Marines, throw down an Academy. And then a bunch of Banelings will walk in, break the front, and the Zerg will just kill him.
SC1 Terrans simply have no effective answer to Banelings. They will just die. SC2 Zerg have too much larva, and can build very effective units at Tier 1. The Terran has no chance.
Game ends in 7 minutes.
SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Protoss
SC2 Zerg will overwhelm them with Roaches.
This is the same problem. The SC1 Protoss simply doesn't have anything to deal with the sheer quantity of units that a two-base SC2 Zerg can build. They can drone hard for a bit, then build ridiculous numbers of stuff. Even a one-base Zerg will win with a Roach Rush. Dragoons may hurt more than Stalkers, but there will be more Roaches faster than they can deal with.
Again, the game ends in 7 minutes.
SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Zerg
The SC1 Zerg will build a few Zerglings, maybe FE, start moving through Lair to Mutalisks, and then a bunch of Zerglings and Banelings will show up and they'll die.
It doesn't matter that the SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. What matters is that the SC2 player will have Banelings that melt Zerglings from either race. It simply isn't fair.
Another 7 minute game.
Ultimately, it's not fair for SC1. Even when the SC1 units have more DPS or whatever, the SC2 player has access to faster macro. MULES, ChronoBoost, and Spawn Larva are the biggest reasons why SC2 races would win most of their matches.
Lol almost everything in this analysis is wrong.
BW T v SC2 T:
Marauders are stopped by marines, vultures, and tanks. The reason we see marauders in SC2 TvT is because tanks need 3 shots to kill them. BW tanks would two shot marauders, and they cost way less. Vultures are fast and drop spider mines. Any bio play is almost completely countered by spider mines; Marauders would have what...1 HP after getting hit?
Also, BW marines stay viable because it still takes 2 shots to kill them. SC2 marines would not be because of mines and because tanks that do 70 damage would one shot them. Bio is not viable.
As for medivacs, they come at the same time dropships do, so there's no difference there. In fact, I'd prefer medics and dropships over medivacs, as SC1 dropships are the fastest until shuttle speed, and medics are cheap as hell and have the optic flare. Blind a raven and the SC2 T must use scans or manually destroy mines.
Finally, no one noticed that in SC1, each worker gathers 8 minerals per trip vs 5. You need half the gas workers too, and 50 less minerals.
Start of game: 32 vs 30 minerals gathered per trip of the workers, in favour of BW. After first worker, 40 vs 35, after second, 48 vs 40, etc. I don't think mules would be as effective as you think.
It doesn't sound like you've really played BW, seeing as dropships are standard in TvT. The only difference really is goliaths vs Vikings, and the advantage is debatable on this one because you can focus your starports on dropships, goliaths are cheaper, and goliaths benefit from the same upgrades as mech in BW but for SC2 Vikings fly, though they are marginally slower.
TvZ lol wtf of course SC1 Zerg has an answer to MMM. In fact, it would probably be easier, seeing as sunkens are WAY better than spine crawlers, zerglings own face, hydras are cheaper than roaches yet do more DPS (and the tech time is the same) and lurkers are worlds better than banelings. I fail to see what SC2 Zergs have that make them better at dealing with MMM than SC1 zergs. Medics came faster in SC1 and firebats did huge AoE, yet Zergs were fine. Lategame swarm and plague makes playing against SC1 Zerg a bitch too, and scourge+mutas would spell doom for drop play.
SC2 T vs SC1 P...
LOL it's like you completely forgot about storm. SC1 P can tech to storm way faster, plus get DTs with the same tech. Reavers aren't as popular as other builds PvT these days in BW, and Arbiters...
SC2 P vs SC1 T:
I can agree with most of this, but don't forget there are ghosts and science vessels too. Ghosts are cheap as hell and lockdown would be crazy good against colossus, immortal, etc. Mech in SC2 is still viable against immortals, so I don't see why it wouldn't be with vultures (better than hellions) and just throwing marines into bunkers with the slow push (as opposed to the traditional turrets, no arbiters=less need for them) IMO MM+tanks+vultures would be crazy good. Vultures can harass like no unit in SC2 can, are cheap, and MM don't ever have to get into the range of colossus if it isn't necessary.
SC2 P vs SC1 Z:
Z wins. Period. Why?
Larva issue is solved because SC2 Z must make queens. 2 queens=a third hatch. The larva difference is almost nonexistent, seeing as SC1 Zs benefit from increased resource rates and 4 free drones for the gas.
Hydralisks might only have 80 HP in BW, but compare them to SC2 hydras. In SC2, hydras destroy all gateway units, even zealots, yet statistically they are worse than SC1 Hydras AND they are more than 25% more expensive in resources and double the supply cost, AND require more tech, AND do not synergize in upgrades with AoE, banelings.
SC1 zergs get lurkers, massable hydras, better zerglings, swarm, scourge. Colossi would not exist. Hydra+scourge+lurker would literally destroy anything SC2 P has. Heck, hydra+scourge would be fine. Remember upgraded hydras are about as fast as SC2 speed roaches on creep.
SC2 Z vs SC1 T
Wait wtf? Both SC2 and SC1 T usually only have marines to deal with banelings busts. What the hell is the difference? SC1 Terrans have the advantage here particularly if they go for a factory build. Three mines and any bust attempt will get owned. Tanks with +1 will two shot roaches. SK Terran is even scarier than MMM in SC2, because there is no such thing as overstimming, and bunker rushes are way stronger because SCVs have 65 HP.
Heck, you could SCV 4 marine all in every game and win.
SC2 Z vs SC1 P
Again, where is your logic coming from? What do SC2 Ps have to stop such rushes that SC1 Ps don't? Sentries? Please...you can stop a 7 RR with nothing but cannons. SC1 P has reavers and more easily accessible templar tech (Which makes SC2 Templar tech look like garbage) too.
ZvZ:
False, you can tech hydras in the same time SC2 Zergs tech roaches. It'll be just as strong, as anything hydras lose in HP compared to roaches is made up for in range, DPS, and speed. You can also use sunken/evo walls and get lurkers pretty fast, just gotta survive those first four minutes (more than possible with just lings, I do it all the time in SC2)
Mules=Offset by natural economic mechanics in BW. Chronoboost=offset by shorter BW build times and economic advantages Spawn larva=offset by, again, economic advantages, fact that you can make a third hatch instead of two queens.
On April 14 2011 12:20 Loki57 wrote: People keep saying immortals would rape BW Terran like EMP didn't exist back then or something lol.
EMP does come really late and high up in the BW tech tree, though. It takes a ton of time to tech to Science Facility, then research the EMP and Vessel energy upgrade. Therefore, Immortals are quite good in the mid-game before Vessels can come out, especially against Mines and Siege Tanks. The ability to clear out up to 10 mines per full shield is pretty huge, IMO.
Also, HT Feedback can be quite devastating against Science Vessels, especially considering that Vessels are larger and easier to pick off compared to tiny Ghosts. However, Vessel EMP is much better than SC2 EMP, so the EMP vs Feedback dance will be much more precarious for both sides.
Yea, this is pretty true, but marines in BW would drain immortal shields much faster than marines in SC2 drain immortal shields now and it's pretty darn fast.
In all honesty, I feel that with equivalent skill levels non mirror matchups favor BW races due to superior units and mirror matchups favor SC2 races due to macro mechanics.
Yeah, Marines were pretty powerful in BW. However, the inferior macro mechanics of BW do limit Marine production due to lack of Reactors and MULEs. There is also the question of whether the poor pathfinding AI and limited unit selection of BW carry over in this hypothetical SC2 vs BW battle. If so, then Marine effectiveness will be limited by the difficulty in unit control. If not, then I do agree that improved Stim will tear apart Immortals.
In addition, the lack of Marauders makes the supporting Gateway army much more powerful against bio, especially Stalkers. Force Fields and Guardian Shield also limit the effectiveness of pure Marines. Plus, Colossi are still pretty darn powerful against Marines. I guess the effectiveness of Immortals will really depend on how well the Gateway units and Colossi support it against the combination of Marines and mech.
uhhh, in BW, people actually had MACRO. It's like you assume BW players will float at 1k minerals at 6 minutes into the game. Marines have range upgrade in BW.
Let's put BW units in SC2 world and SC2 units into BW world. the result...? In both cases, I can see BW units being superior. You said something about 4gate attack vs dragoons. wtf you talkin about. You don't know 4gate until you've seen BW 4gate. i'm pretty sure you will have range up by the time warpgates are done.
MULEs, Chronoboost, and Larval Inject speed up SC2 macro to be much faster compared to BW macro. SC2 races can get more stuff much faster compared to their BW counterparts, giving them an advantage in the early game. Chronoboost and Larval Inject allow for faster worker production and overall faster unit and upgrade production. MULEs give SC2 Terrans an edge in income over a BW Terran with an equal SCV count. (edit: although the guy above me does explain pretty well that the improved macro mechanics are offset by differences in overall macro mechanics between the games)
Also, though Dragoons are overall more powerful than Stalkers, Warpgate and Chronoboost imbalances the 4gate against the BW Protoss by taking advantage of faster Stalker production to possibly overwhelm the superior Dragoons with larger numbers of inferior Stalkers at the doorstep of the BW Protoss's base. Also, Sentries with their FF and Guardian Shield help against counterattacks and are quite helpful in the Warpgate rush.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote: SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg
This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there.
SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs.
If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them.
The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit.
It's over in 10 minutes.
This makes me laugh so hard and pretty much invalidates your whole post imo. Have you not heard of defilers with dark swarm? Yes, it's pretty far up the tech tree, but Zergs do just fine currently in SC:BW against bio play. Keep in mind that stim in BW > stim in SC2. Also BW zerglings do MUCH more dps than zerglings in SC2. Also keep in mind that lurkers destroy MM more effectively than banelings do and yet Zerg does just fine with banelings. Also keep in mind that BW mutas can stack much more effectively and thus harass the Terran's army or economy much better and buy Zerg more time. Just go watch some Jaedong ZvT.
You're grossly underestimating the power of BW units (and in some cases completely forgetting about them) in your post. Honestly, I see no way for SC2 to beat BW in any non-mirror matchup.
No possibility of Hive to ever become relevant in that matchup, zerg doesn't have the larva to keep up with terran's mmm play from SC2, also blue flame hellions would own that matchup hard also considering there are no roaches.
Mutas can only have 11 in a control group and 1 thor absolutely shuts down muta harass since they literally stack on top of each other.
BW SCV > SC2 SCV In beta SC2 SCV was easily the greatest worker ever, alas Blizzard smashed it with the nerfhammer. Auto-repair is pretty sick though.
BW Economy <<< SC2 MULE MULE so good. So good. OMG so good.
BW Marine < SC2 Marine Sorta tough, the SC2 marine has a good bit more health, but loses the range upgrade. I think the improved AI and >12 control groups really tip the favor to SC2 marine though.
BW Firebat ? SC2 Marauder Different units, I'd say the marauder is ultimately more useful though.
BW Ghost < SC2 Ghost I miss lockdown but putting one of the stronger abilities (EMP) on the SC2 ghost is a huge boost, snipe is also very nice. Ghost also does more damage in general and is more accessible.
No BW counterpart < SC2 Reaper At this time in the SC2 metagame it's hard to see what the final role of the Reaper will be. It certainly has awesome damage potential that leads me to think it will have a role for anyone who came micro them.
BW Medic >> SC2 Medivac As a pure healers medics are definitely a better healer.
BW Vulture >> SC2 Hellion Vultures are just plain obnoxious. Mines are super good. Though I think hellions will only get more and more scary as players include blue flame as a late game harassing tool.
BW Siege Tank ? SC2 Siege Tank BW tank does sick damage, SC2 tank has greater splash radius, greater range, and smart targetting (IIRC with upgrades I believe the SC2 tank even comes out slightly ahead in damage vs "light" units). As a bonus the SC2 tank does sick damage in tank mode. Both are great units.
BW Goliath < SC2 Thor Not sure I should even be comparing these two. Thors are fucking beastly. Beastly. Goliaths own the crap out of "armored" air, Thors own the crap out of "light" air. Tipping the scales is the application of the auto-repair SCV making Thors a frightening foe.
BW Wraith < SC2 Banshee Dude. Have you seen what Banshee do to mineral lines?
BW Valkyrie < SC2 Viking Well, Valkyries aren't completely useless. Vikings are the siege tanks of the sky, and can even land.
BW Dropship < SC2 Medivac Delivering the transport abilities while not needing to sacrifice space for medics.
BW Science Vessel > SC2 Raven I think it would be better to compare spells here. Probably not the correct comparisons, but w/e. Irradiate > Seeker Missile Seeker missile would be awesome but it's so dang slow, so irradiate wins simply by guaranteeing that it will actually do something, anything. When a missile does hit it is clearly better, obviously. EMP >> Defense Turret BW EMP so good. Defense turret so meh. Defense Matrix < Point Defense Drone Point defense drones are pretty awesome. Dragoons? Hydras? Yeah, that's what I thought. zap zap zap
BW Battlecruiser << SC2 Battlecruiser Not even close.
BW Zealot > SC2 Zealot Legs > Charge, plus the BW zealot actually has a higher attack speed.
BW Dragoon > SC2 Stalker This is a tough one to call. As a straight slugger the dragoon is obviously superior but the Stalker offers greater mobility and the very powerful blink ability.
BW No Counterpart << SC2 Sentry Guardian shield = very strong Force field = super strong Hallucination = better than BW hallucination
BW High Templar > SC2 High Templar BW storm is just so much better. Some ground is made up with smart casting and feedback in place of hallucinate. A few weeks ago the SC2 high templar with kaydarin amulet would have been a much more worthy foe.
BW Dark Templar < SC2 Dark Templar Does more damage, what else do you want from a DT?
BW Archon > SC2 Archon Don't think that needs an explanation
BW Dark Archon >> SC2 No Counterpart Feedback is moved to the HT, maelstrom and mind control (with a massive nerf) to the infestor. Miss you red ball man.
BW No Counterpart << SC2 Immortal Picture this: Immortal next to a shield battery.
BW Reaver ? SC2 Colossus On the one hand you have ridiculous damage. On the other you have damage that you can be confident will actually connect and mobility. I think both of these units melt face.
BW Observer < SC2 Observer You get the sight upgrade for free!
BW Corsair ? SC2 Phoenix Both of these have proven to be a huge pain in the ass for opponents. The Phoenix trades the splash for higher single target damage and the ability to pick off ground units with graviton beam.
BW Scout < SC2 Void Ray
BW Carrier < SC2 Carrier The only thing superior about the BW carrier is that the game is at a point where players no how to survive while they get them out on the battlefield. Toe to toe you would see the insane damage of the SC2 carrier prevail.
BW Arbiter >> SC2 Mothership Obviously as a singular unit the mothership is awesome. However the arbiter fills all the same roles (with different spell graphics) almost as effectively while being more accessible and faster, it only lacks the damage.
BW Larva < SC2 Larva According to liquipedia the SC2 larva actually has greater sight range.. no shit :|
BW Zergling ? SC2 Zergling Gah. This is hard. The singular BW crackling is SOOOOOOOOOOO much better than its "evolved" SC2 offspring. One thing that has evolved is the zergling AI and its ability to attack in non-single-file form and surrounding enemies automatically. Since zerglings are hardly ever used alone I think it's a wash. Plus it mutates into the...
BW Infested Terran << SC2 Baneling One is basically unattainable and does terrible terrible damage. The other is attainable, does terrible terrible damage, makes a cute plushie, and inspires multiple music videos.
BW No Counterpart << SC2 Roach Not a fan of roaches
BW Hydra > SC2 Hydra The BW hydra was obviously a much quicker unit, making it more effective as an all-purpose unit. SC2 hydra delivers awesome DPS.
BW Lurker >>> SC2 No Counterpart Yeah.
BW Ultralisk ? SC2 Ultralisk I'm having a tough time calling this one. Is it better to have more, weaker units or fewer, much strong ones :/ On second thought the SC2 Ultralisk under dark swarm would be stupid good.
BW Defiler > SC2 Infestor Consume >>> Infested Terran Dark Swarm >>> Neural Parasite Plague > Fungal Growth Defiler would be my pick for best unit in either game.
BW Overlord > SC2 Overlord BW Overlord > SC2 Overseer Starts with detection, makes better noises. Contaminate is pretty good though.
BW Mutalisk ? SC2 Mutalisk One can stack, one has infinite selection. Both kick ass.
BW Scourge >>> SC2 No Counterpart T_T
BW Devourer > SC2 Corruptor Both have pretty terrible DPS but I'd say the devourer debuff is better than corruption.
BW Guardian < SC2 Brood Lord Guardian by itself does awesome damage, but the brood lord makes up for it with the wall of broodlings that greatly hamper enemy movement and cause a lot of damage themselves.
On April 14 2011 11:00 eviltomahawk wrote: From the perspective of a TvT.
Siege tanks in BW had a range of 12. SC2 siege tanks have a range of 13. Plus, SC2 siege tanks have 160 health as opposed to the 150 health of BW siege tanks. In addition, SC2 siege tanks build 5 seconds faster than their BW counterparts, though at the cost of 25 more Gas. Although BW siege tanks do more siege damage and have bigger splash, SC2 siege tanks do compensate with better range and health.
Therefore, I think that in a standard Tank vs Tank would be quite interesting to watch as the SC2 tanks take advantage of their better range while the BW tanks take advantage of their better damage. These subtle differences should make all the difference in this mirror matchup.
Also, although Vulture are overall better units than Hellions, they can still be shut down quite hard by Marauders, which are basically the Terran version of the Dragoon, minus shields but with Concussive Shell. Vultures will barely tickle the tons of health and armor of the Marauder while being slowed down and torn apart by the Concussive Shells.
In addition, Vikings are much better AA than Goliaths. Although both do the same amount of base damage (20 for Goliaths and 10x2 = 20 for Vikings), Vikings also get a bonus against armored units, which makes them quite devastating against any Battlecruiser shenanigans from the BW faction. Couple with the fact that players can pump Vikings ridiculously fast out of reactored Starports, Vikings shut down BW airplay quite hard including Battlecruisers. In addition, whereas Goliath mobility was extremely limited since they are ground units with shitty pathfinding AI, Vikings suffer no such mobility issues since they are flyers. Also, Vikings work quite well with Siege Tank lines as spotters and mobile AA.
In addition, MULEs give SC2 Terran a huge early and late game advantage over BW Terran. Early game MULEs give SC2 Terrans the ability to amass a larger army more quickly, thus giving them the advantage in early game pressure. Late game during near-stalemate situations, a mass OC strategy gives the SC2 Terran a significant advantage in resource collection and food differential by allowing him to sacrifice his SCVs much earlier to free up more supply for a bigger army while maintaining ridiculous income with MULEs.
Also, Raven + Banshee can be an extremely potent combo when chipping away at tank lines. PDD can easily nullify missiles from Goliaths, Turrets, and Wraiths while the Banshee tears up Siege Tanks at a much faster rate than the Wraith's tiny airsoft guns.
Do not forget about medics and firebats. Those should do fine against MMM.
And Irradiate. That should melt MMM.
Also. Blinding ravens + Cloak should be interesting. Making SC2 blow multiple scans.
Don't forget BW have a HUGE advantage up the ramp. And a terrible disadvantage bellow ramp.
Also, you're afraid of burrowed banes? I will show you spider mines!
Also, lockdown.... lockdown was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good. Lock every siege tank? Lock Thors? I don't know, lock fucking everything!
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote: SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg
This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there.
SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs.
If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them.
The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit.
It's over in 10 minutes.
This makes me laugh so hard and pretty much invalidates your whole post imo. Have you not heard of defilers with dark swarm? Yes, it's pretty far up the tech tree, but Zergs do just fine currently in SC:BW against bio play. Keep in mind that stim in BW > stim in SC2. Also BW zerglings do MUCH more dps than zerglings in SC2. Also keep in mind that lurkers destroy MM more effectively than banelings do and yet Zerg does just fine with banelings. Also keep in mind that BW mutas can stack much more effectively and thus harass the Terran's army or economy much better and buy Zerg more time. Just go watch some Jaedong ZvT.
You're grossly underestimating the power of BW units (and in some cases completely forgetting about them) in your post. Honestly, I see no way for SC2 to beat BW in any non-mirror matchup.
No possibility of Hive to ever become relevant in that matchup, zerg doesn't have the larva to keep up with terran's mmm play from SC2, also blue flame hellions would own that matchup hard also considering there are no roaches.
Mutas can only have 11 in a control group and 1 thor absolutely shuts down muta harass since they literally stack on top of each other.
It's like you've never played/watched BW... You do realize that instead of queens people just built macro hatches right? Larva isn't really an issue. Especially since BW Zerg units are by far more cost-effective than SC2 Zerg units. Ask any pro who played Zerg in both BW and SC2 and I'm pretty darn sure they'll tell you BW units were more cost effective.
Hellions are powerful, but cheaper hydras, lurkers, and mutas all can deal with hellions pretty handily.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote: SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg
This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there.
SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs.
If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them.
The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit.
It's over in 10 minutes.
This makes me laugh so hard and pretty much invalidates your whole post imo. Have you not heard of defilers with dark swarm? Yes, it's pretty far up the tech tree, but Zergs do just fine currently in SC:BW against bio play. Keep in mind that stim in BW > stim in SC2. Also BW zerglings do MUCH more dps than zerglings in SC2. Also keep in mind that lurkers destroy MM more effectively than banelings do and yet Zerg does just fine with banelings. Also keep in mind that BW mutas can stack much more effectively and thus harass the Terran's army or economy much better and buy Zerg more time. Just go watch some Jaedong ZvT.
You're grossly underestimating the power of BW units (and in some cases completely forgetting about them) in your post. Honestly, I see no way for SC2 to beat BW in any non-mirror matchup.
No possibility of Hive to ever become relevant in that matchup, zerg doesn't have the larva to keep up with terran's mmm play from SC2, also blue flame hellions would own that matchup hard also considering there are no roaches.
Mutas can only have 11 in a control group and 1 thor absolutely shuts down muta harass since they literally stack on top of each other.
It's like you've never played/watched BW... You do realize that instead of queens people just built macro hatches right? Larva isn't really an issue. Especially since BW Zerg units are by far more cost-effective than SC2 Zerg units. Ask any pro who played Zerg in both BW and SC2 and I'm pretty darn sure they'll tell you BW units were more cost effective.
Hellions are powerful, but cheaper hydras, lurkers, and mutas all can deal with hellions pretty handily.
Hellions melt all early lings and hydras due to both being light, what would a sc1 zerg do about a blue flame marauder timing? A 3rd hatch takes longer to build than 2 queens and the queens provide 5 more larva as long as you hit your injects. There's also cloaked banshee possibilities which can just win the game if zerg has no spore colonies. I'm not saying itd be a walkover, but I feel hellions with blue flame would be really hard to deal with for zerg.
On April 14 2011 13:29 BLinD-RawR wrote: lets not forget...stacked mutas>SC2marines.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote: SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg
This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there.
SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs.
If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them.
The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit.
It's over in 10 minutes.
This makes me laugh so hard and pretty much invalidates your whole post imo. Have you not heard of defilers with dark swarm? Yes, it's pretty far up the tech tree, but Zergs do just fine currently in SC:BW against bio play. Keep in mind that stim in BW > stim in SC2. Also BW zerglings do MUCH more dps than zerglings in SC2. Also keep in mind that lurkers destroy MM more effectively than banelings do and yet Zerg does just fine with banelings. Also keep in mind that BW mutas can stack much more effectively and thus harass the Terran's army or economy much better and buy Zerg more time. Just go watch some Jaedong ZvT.
You're grossly underestimating the power of BW units (and in some cases completely forgetting about them) in your post. Honestly, I see no way for SC2 to beat BW in any non-mirror matchup.
No possibility of Hive to ever become relevant in that matchup, zerg doesn't have the larva to keep up with terran's mmm play from SC2, also blue flame hellions would own that matchup hard also considering there are no roaches.
Mutas can only have 11 in a control group and 1 thor absolutely shuts down muta harass since they literally stack on top of each other.
It's like you've never played/watched BW... You do realize that instead of queens people just built macro hatches right? Larva isn't really an issue. Especially since BW Zerg units are by far more cost-effective than SC2 Zerg units. Ask any pro who played Zerg in both BW and SC2 and I'm pretty darn sure they'll tell you BW units were more cost effective.
Hellions are powerful, but cheaper hydras, lurkers, and mutas all can deal with hellions pretty handily.
Hellions melt all early lings and hydras due to both being light, what would a sc1 zerg do about a blue flame marauder timing? A 3rd hatch takes longer to build than 2 queens and the queens provide 5 more larva as long as you hit your injects. There's also cloaked banshee possibilities which can just win the game if zerg has no spore colonies. I'm not saying itd be a walkover, but I feel hellions with blue flame would be really hard to deal with for zerg.
Except BW hydras are medium, not light. So... I don't think blue flame applies. If they do, hydras could still be very efficient vs them. Also, Broodwar Zerg techs to 3 hatch muta, not 3 hatch hydra, with lings and sunkens before hand. Sunkens dealing 40 damage to marauders would also be quite devastating. Also, BW hydras>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC2 Hydras, please remember that. BW also usually gets 3rd hatch by 13th supply, so it's still very fast. Also, BW overlords have sight, so zerg doesn't need spore colonies. Heck, Zerg can deal with 2port wraith in BW WITH micro without spores, banshee's wouldn't do anything, lol.
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote: SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg
This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there.
SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs.
If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them.
The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit.
It's over in 10 minutes.
This makes me laugh so hard and pretty much invalidates your whole post imo. Have you not heard of defilers with dark swarm? Yes, it's pretty far up the tech tree, but Zergs do just fine currently in SC:BW against bio play. Keep in mind that stim in BW > stim in SC2. Also BW zerglings do MUCH more dps than zerglings in SC2. Also keep in mind that lurkers destroy MM more effectively than banelings do and yet Zerg does just fine with banelings. Also keep in mind that BW mutas can stack much more effectively and thus harass the Terran's army or economy much better and buy Zerg more time. Just go watch some Jaedong ZvT.
You're grossly underestimating the power of BW units (and in some cases completely forgetting about them) in your post. Honestly, I see no way for SC2 to beat BW in any non-mirror matchup.
No possibility of Hive to ever become relevant in that matchup, zerg doesn't have the larva to keep up with terran's mmm play from SC2, also blue flame hellions would own that matchup hard also considering there are no roaches.
Mutas can only have 11 in a control group and 1 thor absolutely shuts down muta harass since they literally stack on top of each other.
It's like you've never played/watched BW... You do realize that instead of queens people just built macro hatches right? Larva isn't really an issue. Especially since BW Zerg units are by far more cost-effective than SC2 Zerg units. Ask any pro who played Zerg in both BW and SC2 and I'm pretty darn sure they'll tell you BW units were more cost effective.
Hellions are powerful, but cheaper hydras, lurkers, and mutas all can deal with hellions pretty handily.
Hellions melt all early lings and hydras due to both being light, what would a sc1 zerg do about a blue flame marauder timing? A 3rd hatch takes longer to build than 2 queens and the queens provide 5 more larva as long as you hit your injects. There's also cloaked banshee possibilities which can just win the game if zerg has no spore colonies. I'm not saying itd be a walkover, but I feel hellions with blue flame would be really hard to deal with for zerg.
Except BW hydras are medium, not light. So... I don't think blue flame applies. If they do, hydras could still be very efficient vs them. Also, Broodwar Zerg techs to 3 hatch muta, not 3 hatch hydra, with lings and sunkens before hand. Sunkens dealing 40 damage to marauders would also be quite devastating. Also, BW hydras>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC2 Hydras, please remember that. BW also usually gets 3rd hatch by 13th supply, so it's still very fast. Also, BW overlords have sight, so zerg doesn't need spore colonies. Heck, Zerg can deal with 2port wraith in BW WITH micro without spores, banshee's wouldn't do anything, lol.
lol this is true, i totally forgot about BW overlords >.< my bad.
Hellions wouldn't do bonus vs hydras? Then I change my stance, I still think the terran could win early-mid game but no chance late game.
EPT
