EPT*colossi
If BW Units fought SC2 Units.... - Page 9
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
*colossi | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
Also, Dragoon range isn't very long without their 150/150 range upgrade, thus making early-game Stalker pushes and Warpgate rushes more powerful. Plus, Sentry Force Fields can really screw with Dragoon pathfinding assuming that the stupid AI carries over to the hypothetical battle. Assuming that the BW Protoss survives the inevitable 4gate rush, they will have to deal with SC2 Robo and Stargate techs. Phoenixes can nullify Reavers by picking off Shuttles and picking up Reavers with Graviton Beam. As I've said before, Reavers are pretty much useless against Immortals due to Hardened Shields, though it'll be interesting to see how Blink Stalkers do against a BW army. Nevertheless, Reavers will wreak havoc against SC2 balls assuming that Immortals don't soak up too much damage. Colossi will also be difficult to deal with assuming that the SC2 Protoss has a decent Gateway army and Immortal meat shield to protect them from Reavers. Zealot Charge also will make SC2 Zealots a bit better than BW Zealots despite BW Zealots having 10 more shields. Therefore, a BW Protoss MUST tech to Templar in a PvP since that is where they have a significant advantage. SC2 Templar are more expensive and no longer have Amulet, thus giving the cheaper, fully upgraded BW High Templar a greater advantage. Also, BW DTs are much better due to only requiring a Templar Archives, having double the non-shield health, and being cheaper in Gas cost and build time. On the other hand, SC2 DTs deal 5 more damage and can 1-shot workers. HOWEVER, SC2 High Templar also have Feedback, which has the potential to snipe BW Templar and nullify their better Storms. Also, there will be a difference in Archons between the SC2 and BW Protoss. Both Archons are identical in health and range but differ in damage and cost. BW can be a bit cheaper due to cheaper BW High Templar, though SC2 Archons can vary in cost due to the fact that they can be merged from any combination of High and Dark Templar. BW Archons do 30 base damage while SC2 Archons only deal 25, though the +10 vs bio for SC2 Archons do give them an edge against Zealots. Overall, SC2 Protoss will dominate in the early game, but the BW Protoss can hold its own in the mid and late game by taking advantage of Reavers and better Templar. However, SC2 Protoss also has great options for dealing with BW HT and Reavers with HT feedback and Immortals respectively. Overall, the BW Protoss will have a stronger, meatier Gateway army, but the SC2 Protoss can take advantage of the improved mobility of their Colossus, Blink Stalkers, and Chargelots for better positioning. | ||
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FakePromise
United States77 Posts
BW units were so much better. SC2 zerg with our weakass zerglings and mutas that you can barely micro. I really didn't mind the macroing in SC1, I actually found it fun going 1a2a3a4a5sh6sh7sh8sh. It was harder to do but I remember feeling a sense of accomplishment when I could do that in just a few seconds and not screw up. And PLAGUUUU was so much better than fungal growth | ||
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Loki57
United States292 Posts
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Rinrun
Canada3509 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:04 TheKanAry wrote: Thread needs UMS map. Gogo map makers, SC2 vs BW. I concur, this would help shine a light on the awesomeness of BW. I love the fact that some people are saying that BW zergs got nothing. LOL. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:20 Loki57 wrote: People keep saying immortals would rape BW Terran like EMP didn't exist back then or something lol. EMP does come really late and high up in the BW tech tree, though. It takes a ton of time to tech to Science Facility, then research the EMP and Vessel energy upgrade. Therefore, Immortals are quite good in the mid-game before Vessels can come out, especially against Mines and Siege Tanks. The ability to clear out up to 10 mines per full shield is pretty huge, IMO. Also, HT Feedback can be quite devastating against Science Vessels, especially considering that Vessels are larger and easier to pick off compared to tiny Ghosts. However, Vessel EMP is much better than SC2 EMP, so the EMP vs Feedback dance will be much more precarious for both sides. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:24 Rinrun wrote: I concur, this would help shine a light on the awesomeness of BW. I love the fact that some people are saying that BW zergs got nothing. LOL. its like they forgot that dark swarm nullifies like 99% of all sc2 units or something | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:20 Loki57 wrote: People keep saying immortals would rape BW Terran like EMP didn't exist back then or something lol. already is one it uses alot of my SC2BW mod in it. my SC2BW mod is a full recreation of bw in sc2. last video i saw of sc2 vs sc1 however reavers didn't work correctly as per my mod. but anyway. it's there. on battle.net. just impossible to find thanks to custom map system. | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
Defiler + lurker is beating anything that SC2 zerg has. Reaver goon vs colossi stalker is about evenish, but I would give SC2 the upper hand because of pure mobility. Colossi and stalkers can maneuver much easier than reaver goon. If there is a ramp involved, stalkers win EZ. Vulture tank is beating anything SC2 terran can dish out. SC2 bio terran is better than BW bio terran. BW speedlots/templar/archon better than any sc2 anti-zerg equivalent for toss. So overall advantage to BW. But mobility really plays a factor, a lot of SC2 units are more mobile than their BW equivalent (by a lot i mean the reaver and dragoon are balls at moving from point a to point b). | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:26 eviltomahawk wrote: EMP does come really late and high up in the BW tech tree, though. It takes a ton of time to tech to Science Facility, then research the EMP and Vessel energy upgrade. Therefore, Immortals are quite good in the mid-game before Vessels can come out, especially against Mines and Siege Tanks. The ability to clear out up to 10 mines per full shield is pretty huge, IMO. Also, HT Feedback can be quite devastating against Science Vessels, especially considering that Vessels are larger and easier to pick off compared to tiny Ghosts. However, Vessel EMP is much better than SC2 EMP, so the EMP vs Feedback dance will be much more precarious for both sides. Yea, this is pretty true, but marines in BW would drain immortal shields much faster than marines in SC2 drain immortal shields now and it's pretty darn fast. In all honesty, I feel that with equivalent skill levels non mirror matchups favor BW races due to superior units and mirror matchups favor SC2 races due to macro mechanics. | ||
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pewpew415
United States48 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:26 eviltomahawk wrote: EMP does come really late and high up in the BW tech tree, though. It takes a ton of time to tech to Science Facility, then research the EMP and Vessel energy upgrade. Therefore, Immortals are quite good in the mid-game before Vessels can come out, especially against Mines and Siege Tanks. The ability to clear out up to 10 mines per full shield is pretty huge, IMO. Also, HT Feedback can be quite devastating against Science Vessels, especially considering that Vessels are larger and easier to pick off compared to tiny Ghosts. However, Vessel EMP is much better than SC2 EMP, so the EMP vs Feedback dance will be much more precarious for both sides. I'm pretty sure Vultures focusing down Immortals would kill them very fast before they can do too much damage. Also, haven't you heard of the 2base +2Atk 5Fact/Vessel timing push/TvP Vessel Rush builds? And Siege Tank's imba range will murder HT before they can get close enough to feedback. | ||
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HEROwithNOlegacy
United States850 Posts
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On April 14 2011 10:08 scintilliaSD wrote: I think SC2 Protoss would beat SC1 Protoss. This is assuming a world where SC2 units behave like SC2 units, and SC1 units behave like SC1 units. Zealot charge is superior to Zealot leg speed. Stalkers move faster than Dragoons and can Blink at the cost of a little less health. SC1 High Templar can't deal with the long range Feedback of SC2 High Templar, although Dark Archons in the equation will quickly turn this around. SC2 Dark Templar do more damage than SC1 Dark Templar. The Sentry, which has no real SC1 equivalent, brutally shifts things in favor of SC2 Protoss, as Force Fields take advantage of both stupid Dragoon AI and stupid scarab AI. Imagine if every scarab shot you fired had to make its way around a mineral line? The Shuttle beats the Warp Prism in survivability, but lacks the ability to drop more than 4 units at a time. Immortals are better overall against the SC1 Protoss army than the Reaver is against the much more mobile SC2 Protoss army, and absolutely destroy the Reaver 1v1. Colossus can take advantage of weak SC1 Protoss anti-air, although lose straight up to Dark Archons due to Mind Control. Observers... are observers. There's no increased sight range in SC2, so I guess SC1 Observers win? The Scout loses handily to the Void Ray in all forms of combat. The Phoenix and Corsair both provide similar roles in the game, but Disruption Web over an army that can Blink is much less useful than lifting up Reavers and High Templars is. SC2 Carriers do more DPS than SC1 Carriers do, and they fire their Interceptors out much more quickly. The Arbiter kicks the crap out of the Mothership hands down, but I believe that Force Field overall is more potent than Stasis in this example. Shuttle + Reaver micro >>>>>> Force fields. Dark Archon >>>>>>>> SC2 SC1 Carriers HEALS interceptors >> CS2 Carriers Arbiters > Sentries AND Mothership together. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:30 Ryuu314 wrote: Yea, this is pretty true, but marines in BW would drain immortal shields much faster than marines in SC2 drain immortal shields now and it's pretty darn fast. In all honesty, I feel that with equivalent skill levels non mirror matchups favor BW races due to superior units and mirror matchups favor SC2 races due to macro mechanics. Yeah, Marines were pretty powerful in BW. However, the inferior macro mechanics of BW do limit Marine production due to lack of Reactors and MULEs. There is also the question of whether the poor pathfinding AI and limited unit selection of BW carry over in this hypothetical SC2 vs BW battle. If so, then Marine effectiveness will be limited by the difficulty in unit control. If not, then I do agree that improved Stim will tear apart Immortals. In addition, the lack of Marauders makes the supporting Gateway army much more powerful against bio, especially Stalkers. Force Fields and Guardian Shield also limit the effectiveness of pure Marines. Plus, Colossi are still pretty darn powerful against Marines. I guess the effectiveness of Immortals will really depend on how well the Gateway units and Colossi support it against the combination of Marines and mech. | ||
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No0n
United States355 Posts
v SC2 Terran, SC1 Terran wins via superior economy. Why? SC1 Terran has 3 mini nukes for the cost of 175 minerals and 100 gas. These mini nukes will come in handy fighting off any MMM army that gets thrown at it, and also Tanks have bigger splash. Also, mini nukes come in handy fighting off drops and getting map control. Another thing is that you have to choose between mules and Scans, so if the terran decides to make a few wraiths, you could be screwed. Finally, even if the SC2 terran has mules, SC1 terran's SCVs have 60 HP and collect 8 minerals per trip, not the ugly 5 of SC2. v SC2 Zerg, SC1 Terran wins via mech. Banelings, won't do much because of mini nukes. Zerglings wont do much because of Vults. Roaches won't do much because of mini nukes. Rofl @ SC2 Hydras. Ultras... I'm not sure but last time I remember ultras didn't do that much vs. mech. Even if they did, mini nukes. Gols can take care of most air, discouraging broodlord play. Even if they went brood lord play, cloaked wraiths should do the job. It doesn't matter if they have extra larvae, their units just aren't robust or fast(flank fast enough) enough to deal with the mech army. v SC2 Protoss, SC1 terran has........ You guessed it, MINI NUKES!!! The Terran will win via economy OR just straight up timing push. THey should function about the same as in SC1 except now SC2 has warp in and blink... both of which can be stopped by good turret placement or spotter buildings. Another thing is a strategy called Deep Six. It's an old strategy that is basically bio mech push to kill a toss. So..... Tanks can take care of the colossi and your MnM can take care of everything else. Firebats not included. BW Zerg: v SC2 Terrans, Zerg wins via economy or just lurkers. Lurkers, which will probably be the key unit as usual, will rape any clumped army the Terran has, AKA their main army of MMM. Splitting vs. Lurkers with SC2 AI will be disastrous, since the SC2 units automatically clump. Line splash will do tons of damage. Speedlings will also help a ton, since they're really robust compared to their SC2 counterparts. Later on, we might see some lurker ling mutalisk play which will be really hard for the Terran to deal with. If the Terran decides to go mech instead, I think that going muta hydra could help A TON. Also, since you can use magic box to stop mutas from stacking than the thors are obsolete vs. mutas, just like in SC2. v SC2 Protoss, Zerg will win by landslide, playing a rush game or even a macro game. Why is that? Well the reason is that Lurkers and Hydras are just so good vs. anything that's not a Colossus. The DPS and Splash will do much damage to any ground army the Protoss will have, and even if ForceFields push lurkers from the spots they were in. Mutas can just stack and harass the living daylights out of the toss, and then when the phoenixes come can retreat to the, much faster than SC2 Hydras, Hydra OR ALTERNATIVELY, just bring some scourge. In the end, Zerg will probably just transition into Ultraling and kill anything toss has, including Voidrays and carriers because scourge are just so effective. Even if the Protoss has warpgates and warp prisms, ovies can be placed strategically around the map to watch for them. v SC2 Zerg, SC1 Zerg will probably win because Zerglings are just better in SC1 than SC2. If the SC1 Zerg 9 pools, he can just continue putting pressure on the SC2 Zerg with his better lings. For the SC2 Zerg to be able to defend, he'll need to pull drones, and even that is not assured to defend entirely. If he tries to get a queen out for extra larva, it means he had to use 150 minerals for a queen instead of more lings, meaning the extra and stronger lings from the BW side will just run over the SC2 side. BW Toss: v SC2 Terran, Protoss will win. Why do you ask? Well the fact that Reavers can do 225 damage with splash, control choke points with low numbers, and, in a shuttle, be very mobile, it will make a lot of MMM strategies fail outright. Sure you might say vikings can get the shuttle, but think about the fact in BW, even if you have wraiths you won't know exact where the shuttle is going to go. Now, Turrets in SC2 cost 100 minerals. That's quite a lot of minerals which could've been used on making something else. Also, that 100 minerals is only for 1 turret. 1 turret will not stop any reaver from getting into your base. That means you'll need at least 4 turrets, that's 400 MINERALS! That's enough for another CC, meaning more mules/scans. But you can't get that CC, because reavers are everywhere. if the Protoss player goes a lot of reavers, they can make corsairs. Corsairs can do a kind of moveshot, while vikings cannot. Another thing is that vikings are really slow if you think about it. Another plus is that Corsairs have Dweb, meaning you have to move your army meaning it's not shooting. OR alternatively, you could pull the old 2 base reaver into carrier for good measure. Why will this work? Firstly, reavers can mostly stop any bio attack from happening at your natural. Second, Interceptors dont just plain outright die from seeing an enemy, and third, if they skimp on defenses you can kill his entire economy. v SC2 Zerg, I think that reavers will definitely play a huge part here. 3-5 cannons in front of natural with a reaver or two could most likely stop any hydra roach bust that's going to attack you. Another you could do is just plain DT rush him. DTs do tons of damage and are invisible. SC2 Ovies do not detect automatically so it works. Plus, with that DT rush you also unlock the High Templar tech, which also helps in defending hydra roach busts. Corsairs would shut down basically all Zerg air AND could really help in ground fights via Dweb. Corsair reaver would also do very well because reavers will kill all the ground, and corsairs can take care of air. Corsairs will also Dweb the ground, helping the reavers hold out. As a late game transition, Corsair Carrier is viable again, because of the plain fact that there are no scourges. v SC2 Protoss, I think BW protoss wins. The fact of the matter is, Dragoons are just better than Stalkers, no matter how you put it. Sure stalkers are smaller and can fit more in one spot, but Dragoons are so powerful. Dragoons will do 15 damage per shot to those pesky stalkers before they can hit you, and your speedlots can kill their chargelots. Why you ask? Because speedlots have permanent speed, meaning they can spread out much better for a better concave than the Chargelots can. Another thing is that they won't go run up to a unit that went behind a wall of Zealots, they'll attack whatever is in front of them. Later on, reavers come into play. Reavers have splash, and do 225 damage per hit, meaning they will help other units kill the SC2 units faster with the splash and damage. He will get his pesky phoenixes to get your shuttles, but you'll be ready with your corsairs OR you'll just drop your reavers down while they try to kill your shuttle. THey will face losses while you still have both reavers and maybe even the shuttle. With your corsairs, if you chose to get them, you can go colossus hunting. In the midst of battle, you can cast Dweb and go attack their colossus. The real problem though with going phoenixes, is that you will have less actual units to attack with, meaning the dragoon force will be much larger than the stalker force, and since the dragoon is more muscular in many ways, they outcome will be that the dragoons will win. Edit: messed up what Deep Six was | ||
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Tynan
Canada111 Posts
BWT versus SC2T, lol. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:44 Tynan wrote: Can't we test this? Aren't there modded maps with Brood War units? Someone should make one that lets people select BW or SC2 versions of their race. BWT versus SC2T, lol. I still just cant see SC2T winning at all,everything BW terran has is superior to MMM SC2 T cant go pure mech because tanks are so much more expensive, cost 1 more supply and do alot less damage vultures are free, and in broodwar vultures stopped bio play dead marauders have alot of hp, but tanks 2 shot basically every terran ground unit besides the thor so i dont think it matters and goliaths just give superior anti air compared to sc2 | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On April 14 2011 12:41 eviltomahawk wrote: Yeah, Marines were pretty powerful in BW. However, the inferior macro mechanics of BW do limit Marine production due to lack of Reactors and MULEs. There is also the question of whether the poor pathfinding AI and limited unit selection of BW carry over in this hypothetical SC2 vs BW battle. If so, then Marine effectiveness will be limited by the difficulty in unit control. If not, then I do agree that improved Stim will tear apart Immortals. In addition, the lack of Marauders makes the supporting Gateway army much more powerful against bio, especially Stalkers. Force Fields and Guardian Shield also limit the effectiveness of pure Marines. Plus, Colossi are still pretty darn powerful against Marines. I guess the effectiveness of Immortals will really depend on how well the Gateway units and Colossi support it against the combination of Marines and mech. uhhh, in BW, people actually had MACRO. It's like you assume BW players will float at 1k minerals at 6 minutes into the game. Marines have range upgrade in BW. Let's put BW units in SC2 world and SC2 units into BW world. the result...? In both cases, I can see BW units being superior. You said something about 4gate attack vs dragoons. wtf you talkin about. You don't know 4gate until you've seen BW 4gate. i'm pretty sure you will have range up by the time warpgates are done. | ||
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