On April 14 2011 11:13 IamBach wrote:
Lol at scourge vs Collosi. Would that even work?
It would work and it would disintegrate the colossi into trillions of pieces.Lol at scourge vs Collosi. Would that even work?
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Kamais_Ookin
Canada4218 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:13 IamBach wrote: It would work and it would disintegrate the colossi into trillions of pieces.Show nested quote + On April 14 2011 11:12 tree.hugger wrote: Dark Swarm + Lurkers + Scourge would destroy every single Sc2 unit combination. Lol at scourge vs Collosi. Would that even work? | ||
Gleve
United States206 Posts
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
On April 14 2011 10:45 jabberwocky wrote: Show nested quote + On April 14 2011 10:38 mutantmagnet wrote: Only an act of God can save BW zerg from SC2 Terrans. Loved this! And your entire post made sense too. Though I really doubt how Terran can combat SC2 Protoss when they have warpgates and FF. Only superior mech positioning would allow them any chance. You've never played against the Flash build. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:07 mutantmagnet wrote: Show nested quote + On April 14 2011 11:00 eviltomahawk wrote: From the perspective of a TvT. Siege tanks in BW had a range of 12. SC2 siege tanks have a range of 13. Plus, SC2 siege tanks have 160 health as opposed to the 150 health of BW siege tanks. In addition, SC2 siege tanks build 5 seconds faster than their BW counterparts, though at the cost of 25 more Gas. Although BW siege tanks do more siege damage and have bigger splash, SC2 siege tanks do compensate with better range and health. Therefore, I think that in a standard Tank vs Tank would be quite interesting to watch as the SC2 tanks take advantage of their better range while the BW tanks take advantage of their better damage. These subtle differences should make all the difference in this mirror matchup. . Forgetting one important factor. BW tanks are 2 supply. SC2 tanks are 3. True. However, MULEs compensate for the supply differential by allowing for a much lower SCV count while maintaining equal or greater mineral income, thus freeing up supply for more tanks. | ||
Kentakky
Sweden1272 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:00 eviltomahawk wrote: From the perspective of a TvT. Siege tanks in BW had a range of 12. SC2 siege tanks have a range of 13. Plus, SC2 siege tanks have 160 health as opposed to the 150 health of BW siege tanks. In addition, SC2 siege tanks build 5 seconds faster than their BW counterparts, though at the cost of 25 more Gas. Although BW siege tanks do more siege damage and have bigger splash, SC2 siege tanks do compensate with better range and health. Therefore, I think that in a standard Tank vs Tank would be quite interesting to watch as the SC2 tanks take advantage of their better range while the BW tanks take advantage of their better damage. These subtle differences should make all the difference in this mirror matchup. Also, although Vulture are overall better units than Hellions, they can still be shut down quite hard by Marauders, which are basically the Terran version of the Dragoon, minus shields but with Concussive Shell. Vultures will barely tickle the tons of health and armor of the Marauder while being slowed down and torn apart by the Concussive Shells. In addition, Vikings are much better AA than Goliaths. Although both do the same amount of base damage (20 for Goliaths and 10x2 = 20 for Vikings), Vikings also get a bonus against armored units, which makes them quite devastating against any Battlecruiser shenanigans from the BW faction. Couple with the fact that players can pump Vikings ridiculously fast out of reactored Starports, Vikings shut down BW airplay quite hard including Battlecruisers. In addition, whereas Goliath mobility was extremely limited since they are ground units with shitty pathfinding AI, Vikings suffer no such mobility issues since they are flyers. Also, Vikings work quite well with Siege Tank lines as spotters and mobile AA. In addition, MULEs give SC2 Terran a huge early and late game advantage over BW Terran. Early game MULEs give SC2 Terrans the ability to amass a larger army more quickly, thus giving them the advantage in early game pressure. Late game during near-stalemate situations, a mass OC strategy gives the SC2 Terran a significant advantage in resource collection and food differential by allowing him to sacrifice his SCVs much earlier to free up more supply for a bigger army while maintaining ridiculous income with MULEs. Also, Raven + Banshee can be an extremely potent combo when chipping away at tank lines. PDD can easily nullify missiles from Goliaths, Turrets, and Wraiths while the Banshee tears up Siege Tanks at a much faster rate than the Wraith's tiny airsoft guns. You typed an entire essay you forgot to mention that BW T has spider mines, and the fact that everything costs less supply. | ||
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:20 Kentakky wrote: BW SCV gonna kill everything. 60 hp scvs DID kill everything back in beta. It was so retarded especially in PvT that Blizzard had to nerf scv hp down to 45 the way it is now. hahaha | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:13 IamBach wrote: Show nested quote + On April 14 2011 11:12 tree.hugger wrote: Dark Swarm + Lurkers + Scourge would destroy every single Sc2 unit combination. Lol at scourge vs Collosi. Would that even work? why not? collossi are vulnerable to both ground and air attacks. anything can hit it. muahah I wouldnt mind trading my corrupters for scourgies. | ||
MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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ZealotKiller
Canada161 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
I'm not going to judge this on a unit-by-unit comparison. This is race vs. race. SC1 race X vs. SC2 race Y. Also, note that this is not about unit quality. This is not about which race has the best units or the most interesting units. This is about which race would win in a fight. Also, some translation conventions are in order. SC1 attacks that are Concussive deal max damage to SC2 Light units, and deal minimal damage to non-Light units. So Vultures will do 20 damage to Marines, but 5 damage to Banelings (due to being Light nor Armored). Similarly, SC2 attacks with bonus vs. Armored will be triggered against Large SC1 units. SC2 attacks with bonus vs. Light will be triggered against Small SC1 units. Bonsues against Massive are not triggered. Now, let's talk about matchups: SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Terran SC2 Terran demolishes SC1 Terran. Why? First, Marauders. Tier 1. Cheap. Massable. Sure, they take more damage from Siege Tanks, but they're like Dragoons. Except that Dragoons can't be healed by Medivacs; Marauders can. Also, Dragoons don't have stim. Dragoons can't slow units down. A SC1 Terran will have to Siege-Expand just like in SC1 TvP. The difference is that they're up against MMM now, not Zealots and Dragoons. Medivacs can do tactical drops right on top of the tanks. And while SC2 Marines will take lots of damage from Vultures, they will take out the Siege Tanks quickly enough. A SC1 Terran player will need to get Goliaths to even think about dealing this, thus delaying the expansion. By then, the SC2 player will have two Orbital Commands if not a third, with MULEs helping to pump out masses of MMM. The SC1 Terran will simply lose due to having a poorer economy. This ends in a 10 minute game where the SC1 Terran never gets out of his base. SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Protoss SC2 Terran wins again, but it's closer this time. The saving grace for the Protoss, for a time, is the Reaver. Dragoons and Zealots are as nothing against MMM, but Reavers are the stuff of the SC2 Terran's nightmares. Especially with the Reaver damage upgrade, they would easily allow the SC1 Protoss to expand and start to establish themselves on the map. Well, except for one thing: Shuttles die quick and easily to Vikings. That 10 range is can easily prevent Shuttles from allowing Reavers to keep up with an advancing Protoss army. This will slow the Protoss down. While Reavers will allow the Protoss to establish themselves and possibly do some harassment, they won't be able to actually attack. SC1 Protoss will have to slow push, much like a SC1 Terran going Mech. And the problem here is that, thanks to Orbital Commands, the SC2 Terran is going to have a bigger economy. He's going to have to find a solution to deal with Reavers if he wants to attack, but he could just as well play SK-Terran style with the Protoss: kill any expansions they try to take except their natural and starve them out. Or he can bring in some Vikings and Banshees. Banshees can quickly slay a few Reavers, and Vikings can kill the Shuttles. This allows the generally superior MMM combination to win the day. 20 min Macro game, with the Protoss starved out. SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there. SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs. If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them. The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit. It's over in 10 minutes. SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Terrans The SC2 Protoss wins, but for only one reason. Mech is the SC1 Terran's greatest strength. Long range, Spider Mines, etc. Lots of brutal damage, and you don't even have to micro to do it. Territory denial. And this might have actually worked. If the SC2 Protoss didn't have one thing: Immortals. Immortals wreck everything that comes out of the SC1 Terran's Factory. They deal 20 damage to Spider-Mines and have hit-scan attacks, so Spider-Mines only slow them down. And even if they miss one, it's nothing to worry about; it only did 10 damage. They can walk through a Siege Tank line and melt it in seconds. This is exactly why Immortals were created: to make Terran Mech weaker. And they do their job very well. The Terran now must respond. They could go mass Vultures. Being Medium units, they will only take 20 damage from Immortals, and if you get enough of them, they can crack the Immortals shields. But that's just not going to be enough. Vultures don't have AoE, so even if they kill the shields of one Immortal, there's 5 more. The Protoss won't just be throwing down one or two Robos; they will have 5-6 pumping and Chrono-Boosting Immortals like it's going out of style. There won't even be Warpgate researched; so long as the SC1 Terran player insists on going Mech, the Protoss player will pump Immortals and kill them. The only effective SC1 Terran response is going for Infantry. So the Protoss player will just switch to standard SC2 Protoss play: get a death ball of Colossus and Gateway units and just go fucking kill him. The Terran could try for an Infantry/Mech mixture. But the death ball won't care. I give the SC1 Terran 15 minutes before he GGs. SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Protoss The SC2 Protoss has the edge primarily on economic grounds. Dragoons, on paper, are better than Stalkers. But Stalkers do have one advantage: they're smaller. You can fit more Stalkers into a space than Dragoons. This means that there will be more Stalkers actually shooting in any fight than Dragoons. Zealots with Charge will also be pretty key in this fight, as they take half-damage from Dragoons. Throw in a few Immortals, assuming you can micro them reasonably, and the SC1 army must retreat. To their Reavers. And then the SC2 army must retreat. Colossi can help, but Reavers just do so much damage. However, the SC2 Protoss can do what the SC2 Terran did: use Phoenixes to kill off the Shuttles. This will be more costly than the Terran version, since Phoenixes will have to get in range of the Dragoons to do this. So the SC2 Protoss will effectively have the Colossus deathball. Blink Stalkers can snipe Reavers without Shuttles. Sentries can divide their army, making the number of Dragoons actually shooting even smaller. Therefore, SC1 Protoss will have no other options than to call for their biggest gun: Scouts. And no, I'm not kidding. The only viable use for SC1 Scouts is to fight the SC2 Protoss deathball. Scouts do lots of damage to flying units quickly. And they have a pretty solid quantity of Hp. So Scouts can be used the way SC2 Zerg use Corruptors against Colossi: take them out. Scouts can also help deal with Phoenixes and Void Rays if they appear. Scouts are expensive certainly, but there's no other option. High Templar are too high tech to get before the death ball kills you. And even if you got them, it doesn't do enough damage to stop a SC2 Protoss deathball. Plus, Stalkers with Blink can snipe them. Essentially, this boils down to economy. Thanks to Chrono Boost and Warp-In (faster reinforcement), and the need for SC1 Scouts, the edge goes to the SC2 Protoss. SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Zerg This actually looks really bad for the SC2 Protoss if the SC1 Zerg rushes. SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. However, SC1 Hydralisks aren't quite as strong at taking damage as SC2 Roaches, and they don't have Banelings, so there's no equivalent of a Baneling bust. The SC2 Protoss just needs to get Sentries and they should be able to hold off a rush. If the Zerg tries to play a macrogame, they're going to run into some problems. Observers are much more available in SC2 than SC1 (no Observatory), so they can more easily deal with Lurkers. Hydralisks won't be a particularly dangerous unit, not with Zealots+Charge and the more compact Stalkers around. So it's going to be Mutalisks vs. the deathball again. Except that the SC1 Zerg doesn't have the larva the SC2 Zerg has. Their Mutalisks will be later than most SC2 Protoss will see them. So the deathball will be much bigger, and the Mutalisk ball will be much smaller. Mutalisk micro can help, but it's not going to be enough. Again, the SC2 Protoss wins on economy. [edit] Hey, I'm stupid. I forgot about Scourge. So yea, the SC2 Protoss won't be building Colossi. Or anything that comes out of the Stargate. That sounds like a really good thing for the Zerg. But it's not enough. This just forces the Protoss to use a pure Gateway army. Sentries can divide the Zerg army, allowing the Protoss to cut it into pieces. Stalkers can take out key Lurkers when necessary. And there's not much the Zerg can do. SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Terran The SC1 Terran will wall-in, as normal. They'll start massing up a few Marines, throw down an Academy. And then a bunch of Banelings will walk in, break the front, and the Zerg will just kill him. SC1 Terrans simply have no effective answer to Banelings. They will just die. SC2 Zerg have too much larva, and can build very effective units at Tier 1. The Terran has no chance. Game ends in 7 minutes. SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Protoss SC2 Zerg will overwhelm them with Roaches. This is the same problem. The SC1 Protoss simply doesn't have anything to deal with the sheer quantity of units that a two-base SC2 Zerg can build. They can drone hard for a bit, then build ridiculous numbers of stuff. Even a one-base Zerg will win with a Roach Rush. Dragoons may hurt more than Stalkers, but there will be more Roaches faster than they can deal with. Again, the game ends in 7 minutes. SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Zerg The SC1 Zerg will build a few Zerglings, maybe FE, start moving through Lair to Mutalisks, and then a bunch of Zerglings and Banelings will show up and they'll die. It doesn't matter that the SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. What matters is that the SC2 player will have Banelings that melt Zerglings from either race. It simply isn't fair. Another 7 minute game. Ultimately, it's not fair for SC1. Even when the SC1 units have more DPS or whatever, the SC2 player has access to faster macro. MULES, ChronoBoost, and Spawn Larva are the biggest reasons why SC2 races would win most of their matches. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On April 14 2011 10:38 mutantmagnet wrote: I've been of the mind that I could always make a hybrid game with almost every SC2 unit being inserted into Broodwar. Not too many roles overlap due to the nuance in how the units can be controlled. To answer the OP it depends on the matchup. PvP BW Protoss techs up faster and builds armies faster than SC2 Protoss without Chrono Boost. BW Gateway and Stargate Protoss is a lot more resilient than SC2 but aren't as flexible. BW Robo is cheaper and hit harder than SC2 robo but SC2 robo is more flexible just like the other tech paths. I give the edge to BW Protoss here. Early game SC2 can have an econ or tech advantage but with proper scouting BW is IMO significantly too cost efficient that overcomes the econ route and can better support a robo or templar army with less bases than the SC2 army. The best tool for SC2 is warp gate usage early game. On largish maps pheonix could've been viable if not for my belief BW armies would adapt by making Speed upgraded scouts which would crush pheonix even more cost effectively than the other tech comparisons I mentioned. Disagree here, I'd give SC2 P the advantage here. Chronoboosts and Warpgate mechanics would make it pretty difficult for BW P to make it past the early-mid game. However, if BW P can make it past that, Dragoon/Reaver should be able to tear through Stalker/Sentry/Zlot. If the game doesn't end at that point, it's pretty disadvantageous for BW Protoss because Collossus/Immortal in higher numbers would do a lot of damage. Plus, SC2 HT can feedback to counter BW HT, and Phoenixes can lift things to change the battle tide (even if its only for 5 seconds). Best chance for BW Protoss imo is to go for DT-Forge FE to gain a good midgame footing, then use DA to MC Collossus before battles and Storm before SC2 P can get feedback :s If it gets to lategame tho, Arbs>>>>Mothership lol PvT There are some timing imbalances that IMO give SC2 terrans the edge. Two Reapers can significantly impact Protoss early econ while they wait for Goon range to be upgraded. Even if that doesn't happen Terran can open up with concussive twin maruaders and bull dog Protoss. Even if they don't do that Protoss is going to have an extremely hard time keeping up with MULE economics. If Protoss can survive through that then they have some viable options to win because reaver and psistorm are more powerful and DTs are harder to anticipate and prepare for. Overall I have a bleak out look for this match up. wat? 2 Reapers would be easily dealt with by a minimal amount of Dragoons posted in each base lol, it would be like playing against a Drop-harass style in BW, but much less threatening. Dragoons are waaay beefier than SC2 Stalkers, so a simple 2 Gate Range should be enough to fend off any SC2 T aggression. Once Protoss gets Reavers or Storm out, it's GG for the Terran lol. Hell, Protoss could even get DA for Maelstrom/Feedback. Mech play with no imba mines will make Protoss soooo happy haha. PvZ I give the edge to protoss here. Lings being weaker, hydras being crippled, no lurkers and no muta stacking isn't covered by roaches, blings and infestors. The only thing making Zerg viable here are Queens. Understatement, BW Protoss would totally demolish SC2 Zerg. No scourge means Corsairs will totally dominate, which would lead to Sair/Reaver and Sair/DT nightmares for SC2 Zerg. If Zerg doesn't die to these harassment tactics, they'll surely die to the followup Splashtoss composition (Zlot/Dragoon/Reaver/HT/Archon). No Lurkers, no Swarm, no Plague, no imba cracklings, no fast Hydras to flank with.. yep SC2 Zerg is totally screwed here lol. [/QUOTE] TvT What an interesting match up. BW bio's only saving grace are medics. SC2's metal has no saving grace. BW though has nothing as well in Starport tech aside from BAttlecruiisers. SC2 Terran should crush BW terran in the early game because of mules and superior marines but both Terrans are highly capable at defense and depending on the map BW terran should survive to engage in Tank Wars. Once that happens the match up balances itself out very quickly. So this match up is a toss up. SC2 could win early game but this should rarely happen once players understand the timings and then everything will be dependent on who has the better strategy with what resources they have. I think that SC2 Terran would just simply destroy BW Terran. Vikings that can land are just too much to handle for BW Terran lol, not to mention Marauder imba ;o Only saving grace is that in BC vs BC fights, BW Terran has the upper hand (but why bother when you got Vikings lol) and Wraiths can cloak........ TvZ SC2 Zerg curb stomps. Whether they go high econ baneling or macro roach they should crush face. Terran could try going metal but with access to queens to kick their map control into overdrive and their Hive tech being far more resiliant to mech play I don't see how this matchup can work without 90%+ win rate for zerg. Depends. Heavy marine styles are possible in SC2 in TvZ, so it should be possible w/ BW Terran too. But I'd have to say that BW T would be forced into a Mech style most of the time, which would be far more effective than SC2 T Mech, because Tanks cost less, and Vultures are imba. Also 2port Cloaked Wraith could be difficult for SC2 Zerg to deal with, since you can actually micro the Wraiths and Zerg's detection options are limited. TvP If BW terran can survive the warpgate push they should effectively be on par with SC2 Protoss. SC2 protoss will learn quickly how powerful mech play can really be but they have the immortal to prevent that from being a dominating strat. Aside from them and Blink stalkers they don't have anything that makes them really scary after the warpgate rush. Analysis: BW Terran should win more than lose. Agreed about how BW T Mech play will be so much more powerful, because Mines are ridiculous (And Stalkers are too fragile). Immortals will be too costly to make in high numbers and will be brought down really fast due to Vulture DPS. ZvZ BW lings are stronger than SC2 lings. This should decide most of the fights in such a short lived match up but SC2 zerg will adapt because their defensive and macro tools are too powerful to try to decide the game with ling play. Eventually SC2 zerg should curb stomp BW zerg but I have my doubts about this working out on certain maps. Verdict. SC2 will consistently beat BW zerg but it won't be as lopsided as TvZ. If BW Z forces the game into Zergling allins to time before Banelings can come out, then that's all the BW Zerg needs to win all the time. Also, BW Mutas can actually be microed and Scourge will give them absolute map control, thus I'd give it to BW Zerg ZvT Complete massacre for BW zerg. Their only chance is defiler tech. They shouldn't live that long for that to happen. Even if they do pull it off they shouldn't be in a position army or economy wise to sustain it long enough for a comeback. Only an act of God can save BW zerg from SC2 Terrans. Yea, it'd be really hard for BW Zerg to survive, unless BW Zerg has really sick Muta micro. Once it gets to Hive tech tho, BW Zerg should have the biggest advantage Seems like you forgot to do BW Zerg vs SC2 Protoss, to which I'll say that BW Zerg will win pretty easily due to better Hydras, microable Mutas, and Swarm/Plague | ||
Gemini_19
United States1238 Posts
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kunstderfugue
Mexico375 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:28 NicolBolas wrote: This post will probably take this more seriously than the OP intended, but I don't care. I'm not going to judge this on a unit-by-unit comparison. This is race vs. race. SC1 race X vs. SC2 race Y. Also, note that this is not about unit quality. This is not about which race has the best units or the most interesting units. This is about which race would win in a fight. Also, some translation conventions are in order. SC1 attacks that are Concussive deal max damage to SC2 Light units, and deal minimal damage to non-Light units. So Vultures will do 20 damage to Marines, but 5 damage to Banelings (due to being Light nor Armored). Similarly, SC2 attacks with bonus vs. Armored will be triggered against Large SC1 units. SC2 attacks with bonus vs. Light will be triggered against Small SC1 units. Bonsues against Massive are not triggered. Now, let's talk about matchups: SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Terran SC2 Terran demolishes SC1 Terran. Why? First, Marauders. Tier 1. Cheap. Massable. Sure, they take more damage from Siege Tanks, but they're like Dragoons. Except that Dragoons can't be healed by Medivacs; Marauders can. Also, Dragoons don't have stim. Dragoons can't slow units down. A SC1 Terran will have to Siege-Expand just like in SC1 TvP. The difference is that they're up against MMM now, not Zealots and Dragoons. Medivacs can do tactical drops right on top of the tanks. And while SC2 Marines will take lots of damage from Vultures, they will take out the Siege Tanks quickly enough. A SC1 Terran player will need to get Goliaths to even think about dealing this, thus delaying the expansion. By then, the SC2 player will have two Orbital Commands if not a third, with MULEs helping to pump out masses of MMM. The SC1 Terran will simply lose due to having a poorer economy. This ends in a 10 minute game where the SC1 Terran never gets out of his base. SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Protoss SC2 Terran wins again, but it's closer this time. The saving grace for the Protoss, for a time, is the Reaver. Dragoons and Zealots are as nothing against MMM, but Reavers are the stuff of the SC2 Terran's nightmares. Especially with the Reaver damage upgrade, they would easily allow the SC1 Protoss to expand and start to establish themselves on the map. Well, except for one thing: Shuttles die quick and easily to Vikings. That 10 range is can easily prevent Shuttles from allowing Reavers to keep up with an advancing Protoss army. This will slow the Protoss down. While Reavers will allow the Protoss to establish themselves and possibly do some harassment, they won't be able to actually attack. SC1 Protoss will have to slow push, much like a SC1 Terran going Mech. And the problem here is that, thanks to Orbital Commands, the SC2 Terran is going to have a bigger economy. He's going to have to find a solution to deal with Reavers if he wants to attack, but he could just as well play SK-Terran style with the Protoss: kill any expansions they try to take except their natural and starve them out. Or he can bring in some Vikings and Banshees. Banshees can quickly slay a few Reavers, and Vikings can kill the Shuttles. This allows the generally superior MMM combination to win the day. 20 min Macro game, with the Protoss starved out. SC2 Terran vs. SC1 Zerg This isn't even a fight; this is an execution. The SC2 Terran will barely even notice the Zerg is there. SC1 Zerg have no answer to MMM. They don't even have something that resembles an answer to MMM. SC1 Zerglings don't have the DPS to deal with Marauders. SC1 Hydralisks don't have the DPS to stop Marauders either, even though Hydras won't take full damage from them. And the zerg don't have the creep-speed bonus (and yes, I'm aware that SC1 Hydras are faster than their SC2 counterparts. That's still not fast enough). Marines have an extra 5 Hp (and that's before the Combat Shield upgrade), and much faster healing from Medivacs. If the SC1 Zerg fast-techs to Lurkers, they might be able to hold out for a bit, but any competent Terran player will save up a couple of scans and deal with them. The SC1 Zerg will FE, the SC2 Terrans will MMM them, and they'll fold like a cheap suit. It's over in 10 minutes. SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Terrans The SC2 Protoss wins, but for only one reason. Mech is the SC1 Terran's greatest strength. Long range, Spider Mines, etc. Lots of brutal damage, and you don't even have to micro to do it. Territory denial. And this might have actually worked. If the SC2 Protoss didn't have one thing: Immortals. Immortals wreck everything that comes out of the SC1 Terran's Factory. They deal 20 damage to Spider-Mines and have hit-scan attacks, so Spider-Mines only slow them down. And even if they miss one, it's nothing to worry about; it only did 10 damage. They can walk through a Siege Tank line and melt it in seconds. This is exactly why Immortals were created: to make Terran Mech weaker. And they do their job very well. The Terran now must respond. They could go mass Vultures. Being Medium units, they will only take 20 damage from Immortals, and if you get enough of them, they can crack the Immortals shields. But that's just not going to be enough. Vultures don't have AoE, so even if they kill the shields of one Immortal, there's 5 more. The Protoss won't just be throwing down one or two Robos; they will have 5-6 pumping and Chrono-Boosting Immortals like it's going out of style. There won't even be Warpgate researched; so long as the SC1 Terran player insists on going Mech, the Protoss player will pump Immortals and kill them. The only effective SC1 Terran response is going for Infantry. So the Protoss player will just switch to standard SC2 Protoss play: get a death ball of Colossus and Gateway units and just go fucking kill him. The Terran could try for an Infantry/Mech mixture. But the death ball won't care. I give the SC1 Terran 15 minutes before he GGs. SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Protoss The SC2 Protoss has the edge primarily on economic grounds. Dragoons, on paper, are better than Stalkers. But Stalkers do have one advantage: they're smaller. You can fit more Stalkers into a space than Dragoons. This means that there will be more Stalkers actually shooting in any fight than Dragoons. Zealots with Charge will also be pretty key in this fight, as they take half-damage from Dragoons. Throw in a few Immortals, assuming you can micro them reasonably, and the SC1 army must retreat. To their Reavers. And then the SC2 army must retreat. Colossi can help, but Reavers just do so much damage. However, the SC2 Protoss can do what the SC2 Terran did: use Phoenixes to kill off the Shuttles. This will be more costly than the Terran version, since Phoenixes will have to get in range of the Dragoons to do this. So the SC2 Protoss will effectively have the Colossus deathball. Blink Stalkers can snipe Reavers without Shuttles. Sentries can divide their army, making the number of Dragoons actually shooting even smaller. Therefore, SC1 Protoss will have no other options than to call for their biggest gun: Scouts. And no, I'm not kidding. The only viable use for SC1 Scouts is to fight the SC2 Protoss deathball. Scouts do lots of damage to flying units quickly. And they have a pretty solid quantity of Hp. So Scouts can be used the way SC2 Zerg use Corruptors against Colossi: take them out. Scouts can also help deal with Phoenixes and Void Rays if they appear. Scouts are expensive certainly, but there's no other option. High Templar are too high tech to get before the death ball kills you. And even if you got them, it doesn't do enough damage to stop a SC2 Protoss deathball. Plus, Stalkers with Blink can snipe them. Essentially, this boils down to economy. Thanks to Chrono Boost and Warp-In (faster reinforcement), and the need for SC1 Scouts, the edge goes to the SC2 Protoss. SC2 Protoss vs. SC1 Zerg This actually looks really bad for the SC2 Protoss if the SC1 Zerg rushes. SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. However, SC1 Hydralisks aren't quite as strong at taking damage as SC2 Roaches, and they don't have Banelings, so there's no equivalent of a Baneling bust. The SC2 Protoss just needs to get Sentries and they should be able to hold off a rush. If the Zerg tries to play a macrogame, they're going to run into some problems. Observers are much more available in SC2 than SC1 (no Observatory), so they can more easily deal with Lurkers. Hydralisks won't be a particularly dangerous unit, not with Zealots+Charge and the more compact Stalkers around. So it's going to be Mutalisks vs. the deathball again. Except that the SC1 Zerg doesn't have the larva the SC2 Zerg has. Their Mutalisks will be later than most SC2 Protoss will see them. So the deathball will be much bigger, and the Mutalisk ball will be much smaller. Mutalisk micro can help, but it's not going to be enough. Again, the SC2 Protoss wins on economy. [edit] Hey, I'm stupid. I forgot about Scourge. So yea, the SC2 Protoss won't be building Colossi. Or anything that comes out of the Stargate. That sounds like a really good thing for the Zerg. But it's not enough. This just forces the Protoss to use a pure Gateway army. Sentries can divide the Zerg army, allowing the Protoss to cut it into pieces. Stalkers can take out key Lurkers when necessary. And there's not much the Zerg can do. SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Terran The SC1 Terran will wall-in, as normal. They'll start massing up a few Marines, throw down an Academy. And then a bunch of Banelings will walk in, break the front, and the Zerg will just kill him. SC1 Terrans simply have no effective answer to Banelings. They will just die. SC2 Zerg have too much larva, and can build very effective units at Tier 1. The Terran has no chance. Game ends in 7 minutes. SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Protoss SC2 Zerg will overwhelm them with Roaches. This is the same problem. The SC1 Protoss simply doesn't have anything to deal with the sheer quantity of units that a two-base SC2 Zerg can build. They can drone hard for a bit, then build ridiculous numbers of stuff. Even a one-base Zerg will win with a Roach Rush. Dragoons may hurt more than Stalkers, but there will be more Roaches faster than they can deal with. Again, the game ends in 7 minutes. SC2 Zerg vs. SC1 Zerg The SC1 Zerg will build a few Zerglings, maybe FE, start moving through Lair to Mutalisks, and then a bunch of Zerglings and Banelings will show up and they'll die. It doesn't matter that the SC1 Zerglings are better than their SC2 counterparts. What matters is that the SC2 player will have Banelings that melt Zerglings from either race. It simply isn't fair. Another 7 minute game. Ultimately, it's not fair for SC1. Even when the SC1 units have more DPS or whatever, the SC2 player has access to faster macro. MULES, ChronoBoost, and Spawn Larva are the biggest reasons why SC2 races would win most of their matches. this is why i like TL. such in depth analysis for everything. thanks for this. good read. | ||
LanTAs
United States1091 Posts
Siege tanks are stronger =0 NUUUU- GOLAITH ONLINE uhhoes Vultures+3 mini nukes, oh dear. EMP drains all energy from Sci Vessle Dragoons do moar damage than stalkers for sure =( i would not like to try on a BW vs SC2 map, cause BW always wins | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:23 Daozzt wrote: Show nested quote + On April 14 2011 11:00 eviltomahawk wrote: From the perspective of a TvT. Siege tanks in BW had a range of 12. SC2 siege tanks have a range of 13. Plus, SC2 siege tanks have 160 health as opposed to the 150 health of BW siege tanks. In addition, SC2 siege tanks build 5 seconds faster than their BW counterparts, though at the cost of 25 more Gas. Although BW siege tanks do more siege damage and have bigger splash, SC2 siege tanks do compensate with better range and health. Therefore, I think that in a standard Tank vs Tank would be quite interesting to watch as the SC2 tanks take advantage of their better range while the BW tanks take advantage of their better damage. These subtle differences should make all the difference in this mirror matchup. Also, although Vulture are overall better units than Hellions, they can still be shut down quite hard by Marauders, which are basically the Terran version of the Dragoon, minus shields but with Concussive Shell. Vultures will barely tickle the tons of health and armor of the Marauder while being slowed down and torn apart by the Concussive Shells. In addition, Vikings are much better AA than Goliaths. Although both do the same amount of base damage (20 for Goliaths and 10x2 = 20 for Vikings), Vikings also get a bonus against armored units, which makes them quite devastating against any Battlecruiser shenanigans from the BW faction. Couple with the fact that players can pump Vikings ridiculously fast out of reactored Starports, Vikings shut down BW airplay quite hard including Battlecruisers. In addition, whereas Goliath mobility was extremely limited since they are ground units with shitty pathfinding AI, Vikings suffer no such mobility issues since they are flyers. Also, Vikings work quite well with Siege Tank lines as spotters and mobile AA. In addition, MULEs give SC2 Terran a huge early and late game advantage over BW Terran. Early game MULEs give SC2 Terrans the ability to amass a larger army more quickly, thus giving them the advantage in early game pressure. Late game during near-stalemate situations, a mass OC strategy gives the SC2 Terran a significant advantage in resource collection and food differential by allowing him to sacrifice his SCVs much earlier to free up more supply for a bigger army while maintaining ridiculous income with MULEs. Also, Raven + Banshee can be an extremely potent combo when chipping away at tank lines. PDD can easily nullify missiles from Goliaths, Turrets, and Wraiths while the Banshee tears up Siege Tanks at a much faster rate than the Wraith's tiny airsoft guns. You typed an entire essay you forgot to mention that BW T has spider mines, and the fact that everything costs less supply. Actually, there isn't much difference in supply between SC2 and BW Terran. For Barracks units, only Marauders cost more supply at a supply of 2, though they don't have any BW equivalents. For Factory units, Hellions cost the same supply as Vultures. You are right about SC2 tanks costing 3 supply compared to BW's 2 supply tanks. For Starport units, the only difference in supply is that Banshees cost 3 supply as opposed to the 2 supply of the rest of the Starport units, except for Battlecruiser which cost 6 supply both in BW and SC2. Also, Ravens are much easier to tech to compared to Science Vessels, and OCs can be built with only a Barracks prerequisite. Therefore, easier detection form the SC2 Terran does compensate for lack of mines. | ||
seansye
United States1722 Posts
Psi Storm 112? Marines would literally die right when storm lands on them/ Hydras would get raped with their crap speed as well as roaches. T_T Or mass corsairs against zerg lol. Siege Tanks +3 = 85 x 24(2 groups of siege tanks) =X | ||
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