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I know, I know another APM thread. But I feel I'm in a bit of a strange position.
I first started Starcraft II having never played an RTS seriously before. Obviously, I was low Bronze - I was pretty much terrible... now I'm high Diamond bordering on Master-league. However, I've heard from multiple people that my APM just isn't high enough for Master league. I usually hover around 60-70 APM in a game. I don't spam (obviously)... but I've seen players like HuK and Destiny stream and they DO play faster than I do, period.
The strange thing is that my APM has never increased. You always hear that just getting better at the game will make your APM naturally increase, but mine never has. I still play at the same speed I always have. I'm basically always out-APM'd in every game... win or lose.
So my questions are these: is it true that I'm just not playing fast enough to get into Master league (I do feel as though I've hit a bit of a plateau in my skill). If so, how can I increase my APM? Should I focus on actively playing faster until it just becomes natural to me?
Just as an aside, I play with Mouse Sensitivity at 63% and all of the scrolls at 60% each.
Thanks guys.
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Minigun became good and he was like only 80 tops.
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Doesnt mean a thing.
vVvTime plays at like 70-80 unless there is a battle. I think you are fine.. don't make apm be an excuse for bad macro and decision making
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What's your hotkey setup like? For me, I can look month to month and see an increase.
If you're not increasing, I can only assume that you possibly have an inefficient hotkey setup or your mechanics are off.
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Yeah 80 is fine as long as it doesn't involve spamming.
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Having high apm is good, but you don't need it to be masters. I'd say anywhere between 60-90 is a good amount. Apm is less the number itself and more how you use it. Minigun is a perfect example of a top 200 player with very low apm, and hes playing with some of the best of the best.
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60-70 apm used wisely is more than enough to get into Masters.
I am a masters player, average around 100-150 apm when I play toss but most of the time my opponents have apm similar to yours but even if I do better chronoboosting than them or better macro, it still wouldn't be big enough lead for me to take advantage of. That will affect pro players but not us for sure.
Also, when I play zerg, i hover around 150-200 apm while I never miss an inject (on a good day) for like 20 minutes, I am still sure it wouldn't make a huge difference. Biggest difference is deciding on tech route, upgrades and army composition.
So, APM is not important.
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On April 08 2011 11:08 Clicker wrote:
What's your hotkey setup like? For me, I can look month to month and see an increase.
If you're not increasing, I can only assume that you possibly have an inefficient hotkey setup or your mechanics are off.
It is possible. I play on Grid and I always have. I use 1-3 as attacking groups, 4 as my production buildings (I bind them all to one key and tab through them). 5 is my Nexus (or Nexi ^_~), and usually 0 and 9 will be Observers for some reason.
I do tend to bind my entire army to hotkey, save important units like Colossi or Immortals. That's something I'm trying to get better at because obviously that's not a particular great way to operate.
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sjow is know for having lowest APM (from progamers) and hes owning the place :D
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that being said, it can only help, since low apm players who do well are the exception, not the norm
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My roommate is masters terran and he has a max of about 70 apm, definitely not a big deal. Don't dwell on apm, as you get better your apm will naturally rise + it's hard to discern between usable and unusable apm.
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70 apm is enough to be masters as T or P, definately not Z, just to much to do as Z, I have around 210 real time apm, not sure what it is in-game (I use sc2 gears). but you should be fine, apm isnt really a huge stat, its what those actions are for
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You can get into masters with 60-70 apm, but obviously a pro would need more apm (not that much more, but more than 70).
However, if you want to increase your apm, and I think it can't hurt, you should start spamming. Just spamming to increase your actions will get you comfortable with playing at high speeds. Then, you can try and convert those actions into effective actions.
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Just an idea, maybe you dont know all the hot key tricks and its holding you back? You use the F1 keys and such?
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On April 08 2011 11:06 Skaggs wrote:
I know, I know another APM thread. But I feel I'm in a bit of a strange position.
I first started Starcraft II having never played an RTS seriously before. Obviously, I was low Bronze - I was pretty much terrible... now I'm high Diamond bordering on Master-league. However, I've heard from multiple people that my APM just isn't high enough for Master league. I usually hover around 60-70 APM in a game. I don't spam (obviously)... but I've seen players like HuK and Destiny stream and they DO play faster than I do, period.
The strange thing is that my APM has never increased. You always hear that just getting better at the game will make your APM naturally increase, but mine never has. I still play at the same speed I always have. I'm basically always out-APM'd in every game... win or lose.
So my questions are these: is it true that I'm just not playing fast enough to get into Master league (I do feel as though I've hit a bit of a plateau in my skill). If so, how can I increase my APM? Should I focus on actively playing faster until it just becomes natural to me?
Just as an aside, I play with Mouse Sensitivity at 63% and all of the scrolls at 60% each.
Thanks guys.
60-70 is definitely high enough to get into masters if you know what you're doing. Zerg requires a bit higher than the other two, but 70 is good enough for all races.
My apm has increased from 60ish to 90ish average since i started playing and i've stayed around the masters level the entire time. I've watched my apm a lot and tried to see how it was changing to try to get a gauge of if i'm playing fast enough, (as you seem to be doing too).
For the most part i've found it comes down to just forcing yourself to think and play faster than you do comfortably. And i don't mean spamming at all. Just forcing your hands and brain to work faster, sort of like when you're in crisis mode. It's very difficult to keep up and makes the game very mentally exhausting.
Edit: I suppose spamming could get you used to playing quicker. I'm not really sure though.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
A lot of the advice about apm is a holdover from BW, and simply doesn't apply in Sc2. While high apm is hardly a disadvantage, there are many top players who manage to hold their own at 70apm tops. So while your apm is on the low side, you simply don't need a good deal of apm to survive in Sc2 right now.
The key to your promotion probably lies in other areas. If you must focus on apm, you're probably best off performing strategies that are not particularly multi-task intensive, and instead practice your timings within that framework.
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On April 08 2011 11:12 vojnik wrote:
sjow is know for having lowest APM (from progamers) and hes owning the place :D
Does Sjow's number range around the low 100 area (that's what I thought I recalled). Either way, APM shouldn't make a difference if you want to get into masters, high APM can be useful if you can make use of it but it won't be anything game changing. I believe 70-80 or so is basically enough to do everything you need to get to masters.
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your apm increases because you have more actions that you want to do or need to do
as your skill increases, you are capable of controlling more things and have a good understanding of what needs to be done, so your apm has to go up
i remember vods of TLO in the beta, or anybody really. 110 was usually pretty high, now he's playing at much higher than that.
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APM increases with value the longer the games go. If you see yourself losing early or a little ways into the midgame, APM isn't your problem. Solidify your openings and timings and you'll win enough to get into masters, even with 30 APM.
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Some very interesting suggestions in the thread so far.
However, if you want to increase your apm, and I think it can't hurt, you should start spamming. Just spamming to increase your actions will get you comfortable with playing at high speeds. Then, you can try and convert those actions into effective actions.
I've tried this on a few occasions, actually. Just sort of forcing myself to do everything faster all the time. I feel like that's what I see when I watch like a pro gamer streaming - they do everything faster and most of it is pretty much useless spam. They don't actually do anything more than what I do most of the time, but it comes in handy when they actually need to be able to play that fast and it actually is that beneficial to be able to comfortably do things that quickly.
Anyway, when I was trying this out it just sort of felt really weird and I didn't really keep with it. Perhaps I should get back to it to try to get used to it.
Just an idea, maybe you dont know all the hot key tricks and its holding you back? You use the F1 keys and such?
I don't, actually... in fact, I didn't even know you could use those until very recently. Do most people use the F keys? I never really messed with them.
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For a zerg it's going to be pretty hard to play at low apm. Reason being is that keeping up with creep spread and queen injects requires a moderate amount of apm in addition to the regular things you will have to do.
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I'm a low masters player and my avg apm for a game where I don't spam at all is only around 50-60.
I play toss and I think that for toss you can have very low apm as long as you are very precise and react very quickly. That is you don't need to be doing a ton of actions but if your forcefields are off by 1 hex or 500 milliseconds you just die a lot so as long as you are very calm and collected with your clicks you can get away with being quite slow at low masters level.
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Socke has always been known to have lower apm also and he is an amazing toss player. Strong decision making and macro with 80 apm. Focus on something more important and you will do great.
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It could just be a matter of needing to practice things.
Choose a task that you have to do in the game e.g. injecting larvae, building supply depots, etc. Figure out what the most effective series of hotkey presses and mouse actions are to execute that action.Then, practice that sequence at increasing speeds until you can do it extremely quickly and automatically.
So, for a task that you might have previously executed at 150 apm you might now be doing at 300 apm. Now imagine gradually doing this for all the tasks you need to execute. In addition to directly increasing APM via shortening the time taken to execute tasks, you also free up some time which you can use to execute more tasks or do additional micro.
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I'm a masters league zerg with 65, 70 apm tops. (which is actually close to 100 actions per real world minute... why can't the game use real minutes??)
High APM is certainly not required to get to the higher levels of gameplay, though it certainly helps. Scouting, good game sense (for instance being able to see an army, realize it's small for this point in the game and know he must be teching to something), unit positioning, and solid macro can take you very far.
I'm sure that high apm is needed to reach the very high levels of competitive gaming, but worry about that when you get to it. APM is needed to micro all your units while still doing all the stuff you normally do... to keep your scouting units moving and keep them alive if enemy units show up... all those little things can make a difference at the highest skill levels. But masters league is something like the top 4% of players now... it shows you have a very solid grasp of the game and know what's needed to win, but it's still a far cry from the pros. Masters is like the starting lineup of your high school basketball team, while the pros are in the NBA.
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Alright, it seems like the general consensus is that my APM is fine and I don't need to take any series actions to try to just increase it. That definitely eases my mind, so I appreciate the input, gang.
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Dignitas sjow has like 90 orso liquid nazgul 80 and there are probabbly allot whos apm just isent high but they get the macro and micro done and still spot everything on the map.
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Tbh as I see it, you just need combination of a few things to make it into masters(dependant on race how important each is).
What I mean is if you have low APM compared to in this case low master players, other parts of your gameplay(Such as decision making/macro) need to be above low master players. But tbh to be low master, you just got to be doing something right.
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I have a hard time believing sjow only plays in 90 apm
I could see like 130, but 90... come on
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Anyone saying you NEED a certain amount of APM to be in masters league is uninformed, simple as that. Perhaps the median number is around there, but you don't need any more than what is required for you to execute your idea. There's a famous canadian Brood War professional player named Testie who only had like 80-100 APM, even though most in Brood War thought you needed 250ish APM to make it as a pro player, and testie was legitimately one of the best players around.
If you perfer to make every click and keystroke precise and only do it once, you're going to have a very low average APM, but that doesn't mean you aren't doing everything you need to do. If you can't perform the actions you need to do, then you might want to train your hand speed through mass practice with the aim of improving APM or reaction/fast games such as Minesweeper, and various other online games.
Hope that helped. GL
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For me as zerg I have around 140 average APMs and I could still do more. Honestly to be terran or protoss you could get away with 80APM but as zerg you really should have around 200.
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On April 08 2011 11:18 Slago wrote:
70 apm is enough to be masters as T or P, definately not Z, just to much to do as Z, I have around 210 real time apm, not sure what it is in-game (I use sc2 gears). but you should be fine, apm isnt really a huge stat, its what those actions are for
when comparing P/T apms to Z apms people should take into account that doing several basic things as zerg requires more actions.
for example:
terran/protoss building workers: select CC/Nexus, press build worker. zerg building workers: select hatchery, select larvae, build worker.
terran/protoss increasing suppy: select worker, build pylon. zerg increasing supply: select hatchery, select larvae, spawn overlord.
once the muscle memory for these things (4e vs 4s vs 4sd) is developed, i would say that they take the same amount of effort to execute, but the Zerg ends up with higher apm.
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On your question of getting higher APM, you should not focus specifically on getting your APM higher, but just improving your overall game. I'll quote IdrA as always to explain.
On May 27 2010 23:53 IdrA wrote:
apm is determined by mental limitations, not physical ones. it is not hard to click 300 times a minute, but it requires a lot of practice to be able to know what to do without spending time thinking about it. thats what translates to speed.
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It's absurd to say that apm doesn't mean anything (like somebody said in this thread). You need a certain amount of apm to pull off certain tactics necessary for top level play.
Having said that, you clearly don't need the 300+ to be good. Stork in BW was notorious for having extremely low apm relative to everyone else. Despite that he is one of the best protoss in memory.
As long as you have enough to do even the most basic of maneuvers (100+ i'd say), you can compete with the big boys. After that it comes down to decision making.
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On April 08 2011 11:07 YoiChiBow wrote:
Minigun became good and he was like only 80 tops.
I've seen his stream, that guy is definitely not 80. He even spams the entire duration of the game, I'm thinking 200+
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You can get into masters with 60 sc2 APM for sure. Though you probably need to be a bit faster to be more highly competitive.
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mid late zerg not at 150 is going to have troubles. Low-mid masters z here
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Would it be fair to say that as a random player, my APM will rise more slowly? I "learn what to do" less quickly playing three races.
The funny thing was, I once played a game listening to day9 daily 252 (where he discusses mouse/keyboard mechanics) and my APM went up to 100 over a normal length game, whereas my average is that 60-70 zone. Hearing him talk about minimap and other macro reminders (i.e. tapping) was kind of like having a coach help remind you of those things. I might just have to get into the habit of talking to myself while playing.
The frustrating this is begin my games tapping a lot but when it becomes more complicated, I pretty much forget all about it until one of those "PHEW" moments.
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I think when i first started playing and got into masters I had around 50 APM... now close to 100 without doing anything to improve it specifically.. Once you get used to the mechanics your APM will increase too naturally
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60-70 apm is indeed quite limiting. I won't say you cannot be Master's without improving it (because I don't think that's true), but speeding up would definitely help. You said your apm has never improved... don't worry about that too much, if you started with SC2 you haven't had much time to practice yet. The fastest players you see have built their speed up through years and years of SC:BW play.
As far as improving goes, I find that you need to push yourself past your comfort limit and simply try to do more things faster than you are used to. After a while you will become comfortable at that speed and then you can continue to push it further. An important note though, make sure you are driving this based on actions you want/need to do moreso than some arbitrary apm number. Good luck.
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my friend is a random player in masters and his APM at the end of the game is between 50-60 almost always. He has spikes were it gets higher like a battle etc., but yeah.. APM isn't quite as important in SC2. The more active and useful APM the better of course but it's not the total roadblock it was in the past.
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APM is a choice, it doesnt increase itself. What does increase itself is Eapm if you start out just spamming. Your fingers will continue to move at the speed of the spam but they will start pressing useful things.
The faster you are the better you can be.
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One thing bro:
APM =/= Skill. WhiteRa has an APM of about 100 and there are Masters' Players whose APM are around 150. WhiteRa could probably roflstomp any of them, proving my point.
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only time i feel like i have too little apm is when the other guy is doing harassment/drop plays.
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if you really want to increase you need to actively try, but for me I started around 60 apm now I'm up to like 85-90 in masters league.
But I would really like to get upwards of 120, but i dont actively try to so I dont think it will happen =/
Instead I focus more on multi tasking and macro which is obviously more important.
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I don't think there's like a minimum APM you should have as a masters player
if your actions are thoughtful and well executed why not just do 60 APM?
but if you really want to speed up I highly recommend a multitasking trainer UMS. Working witht hose a few hours a day will speed you up significantly
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I was top 500ish last season, random player, my avg. apm is around 70 ingame, 90-110 actual. So APM isn't really that important.
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Your APM will be increased when you play more game.
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On April 08 2011 11:06 Skaggs wrote:
I know, I know another APM thread. But I feel I'm in a bit of a strange position.
I first started Starcraft II having never played an RTS seriously before. Obviously, I was low Bronze - I was pretty much terrible... now I'm high Diamond bordering on Master-league. However, I've heard from multiple people that my APM just isn't high enough for Master league. I usually hover around 60-70 APM in a game. I don't spam (obviously)... but I've seen players like HuK and Destiny stream and they DO play faster than I do, period.
The strange thing is that my APM has never increased. You always hear that just getting better at the game will make your APM naturally increase, but mine never has. I still play at the same speed I always have. I'm basically always out-APM'd in every game... win or lose.
So my questions are these: is it true that I'm just not playing fast enough to get into Master league (I do feel as though I've hit a bit of a plateau in my skill). If so, how can I increase my APM? Should I focus on actively playing faster until it just becomes natural to me?
Just as an aside, I play with Mouse Sensitivity at 63% and all of the scrolls at 60% each.
Thanks guys.
I'm in masters and I average around 70 APM, maybe more if the game lasts really long or in PvP where it's 4gate vs 4gate. You can do it
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Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
Don't worry about APM. That's not your problem.
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EPT
