| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Techno
1900 Posts
eg) I scan and see that he got his baneling nest right after his lair. I think that the next aggression I will see will be from his mutalisks, I add another barack's to my wall only to be greeted by ~10 banelings who blast their way through. gg. Every race can lose games because of not scouting. If you are blind, you should take extra measures towards not losing to something he could be doing. TL;DR: Make a spinecrawler/extra lings. | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On April 04 2011 23:00 Xolo wrote: This problem is not exclusive to zerg. All three races have terrible scouting during the point in the game when knowing what your opponent is doing is most important. Blizz should make these changes imo: - Scan/mule cost 25 energy. scans and mules last half as long. orbitals start with 25 energy. - Observers can be build out of the nexus, requiring a cybernetics core. - Overlord speed changed to hatch tech and costs 50/50. This would mean that there would be a lot less coinflip guessing game builds, and people would be more inclinced to do safe, reliable builds. Well thats a start but these changes bring problems except the overlord one,Orbital starting with 25 energy would be quite a hit to terran early game and would make terran immune to any kind of stealth unit, protoss one would give protoss to much freedom to abuse their 4 gates and 6 gates without getting so punished for it.I honestly can`t find anything wrong with the zerg one and i play terran. SC2 shouldn`t be about guessing games. | ||
|
Techno
1900 Posts
Because you use the overlord speed to constantly know what the other player is doing, you will be able to drone extremely efficiently. | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On April 04 2011 23:15 Techno wrote: Early overlord speed wouldnt set you back very much. Because you use the overlord speed to constantly know what the other player is doing, you will be able to drone extremely efficiently. You just die to 4gates and the likes if you get it,zerg has a very calculated way to beat these builds without getting behind and you just can`t come up ahead if you just spend 250/200 in a tech that will just tell you which build you`re dying too. Its useful in the late game but it doesn`t solve the issues zerg has in the early game. | ||
|
TanX
Denmark92 Posts
On April 04 2011 16:53 JDub wrote: I'm sure this can be frustrating, but you can't really blame the loss on anything but yourself. Given those positions, you should be able to have an ovy scouting his natural to see if he is actually floating a CC over there. If you don't see a CC, you can't just sit back and relax and drone up. Until you confirm that he is expanding, you're not safe. One thing you could have done is produced more lings. If he IS expanding, you can deny the expo with your lings for a little bit, until he has enough marines to force you to back away. If you see 4 marines move down the ramp alone, and you have 12-16 lings, you can just surround and kill them. And if he is just hiding a 3 rax, now you have more lings which you can defend with. I never build that many lings if I don't expect aggression. I scouted with about 2 lings (only build a set to scout his base and another set to take watchtowers) and ran around peeping in and out of his expo... when I didn't see the CCC for a few seconds I ran in with the zerglings into his base and scouted the 3 rax. THEN I started massing units... I never ever ever mass units without having to use them, if I did mass units blindly I would be far behind in ECO if he went fast expo and would then have to do an all-in speedling push to deny his expo. | ||
|
Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
That said, each race should be capable of playing safe without falling behind in economy/tech vs a player who isn't greedy. PvT is like that to an extent in SC2. Both races have builds that allow them to deflect any heavy aggression or cheesy tech play (banshees/DTs/Thor rush etc) while still keeping a good economy up and taking an expansion at a reasonable timing. Both of them can also get greedy (1 rax no gas expand and 1 gate no gas expand or Nexus first) in order to secure an early lead, and both can get punished for it in various ways. This, in my opinion, is the way it should work. So, as I see it, the problem with Zerg isn't so much that they can't scout well enough, but that they have no "safe" builds that can deal with everything up to a certain point without sacrificing a lot of economy. Whether this is inherent, and such builds simply do not exist, or if Zergs simply haven't found them yet, I'm not sure. Some options are pretty obvious and are already being implemented, like getting an early third Queen/evo chamber to counteract possible Stargate play, or a Spinecrawler at the natural to deflect any surprise Hellions. So, I would very much prefer to see this problem as a result of general bad design of Zerg, rather than scouting inadequacy. | ||
|
awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I think the fix for Zerg should be similarly straightforward--easier access to the Overlord speed upgrade. If Overlord speed was, instead of 100/100 and 60 seconds, something like 50/50 and 40 seconds and came from the hatchery, it would make it much easier to fit it into a build in such a way that players could get it early enough that it could help with scouting in the early game without being too much of an economic setback. Now, detection still wouldn't come until lair tech--but the faster overlords would at least give Zerg players enough time to scout enough to know they are going to need detection, and react to it before they are being abused cloaked enemies. | ||
|
Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
Can't you just Queen/Drone --> Spines @ 6:00 with a spore @ 7:00 (to block DT if your opponent hasn't already revealed his hand), and then flood with Speedlings or Roaches against pretty much any PvZ opening? Obviously as soon as Protoss expands you can tech up and cut back on unit production. Against Terran it's more annoying since Cloaked Banshees force better detection coverage, but Terran has obvious tells for whether or not they're teching. EDIT: On a lot of maps you can reliably gas steal your opponent, drastically reducing the realm of possible builds. | ||
|
JayKayJK
126 Posts
If you're skeptical, check out his thread, watch some replays, and try it out, because as skeptical as I was, as I began to practice with it and watched his stream, I started to see how strong it was. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017 | ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
Typhon peaks if the perfect example. If I don't have an overlord nearby the protoss' base at 4:45 it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell what he's doing and I have to admit that I really hate guessing. If I try to prepare for kind of everything - get roaches, spores, not too many drones, not too many units - then I'm already behind no matter what he's doing. Super large maps are also imbalanced, because you dont get more income from having more bases (thanks LaLush for pointing this out) thus the race with the most cost efficient unit (Protoss) will be overpowered. Short rush distances also suck for obvious reasons. You're hugely behind just because you spawned close position on meta. IdrA has been saying it for months now. Overlord speed needs to be hatch tech and cost 50 50. | ||
|
Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On April 04 2011 16:15 xbankx wrote: I seen creative scouts (using ling+drone) by zergs as ling take hits(since its higher attack target) drone can go in base and scout. Scouting goes both ways, as soon as soon as the first 4 lings comes out. I get pretty much no scouting down until my obs or hallucination is finished. Playing partially blind and reacting to game is part of the game. the difference is zerg has nothing that makes you insta-lose if not scouted in that window, so you don't really have to worry too much. I definitely feel the pain on this, generally making extra queens/spines for safety sake until I can puzzle out what they are doing... | ||
|
Sworn
Canada920 Posts
| ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On April 05 2011 00:37 Severedevil wrote: This complaint happens a lot, and I'm still bewildered by it. Can't you just Queen/Drone --> Spines @ 6:00 with a spore @ 7:00 (to block DT if your opponent hasn't already revealed his hand), and then flood with Speedlings or Roaches against pretty much any PvZ opening? Obviously as soon as Protoss expands you can tech up and cut back on unit production. Against Terran it's more annoying since Cloaked Banshees force better detection coverage, but Terran has obvious tells for whether or not they're teching. EDIT: On a lot of maps you can reliably gas steal your opponent, drastically reducing the realm of possible builds. No, you can't. It's real nice that you got a spore for AA and detection back at home, but that won't help you with your attack :/ In case you didn't know. 1 zealot > any realistic number of zerglings. 1 vray/DT > any realsitic number of roaches. 1 Sentry -> enough time to get vrays/DTs/a big enough army out. | ||
|
snorlax
United States755 Posts
| ||
|
Ichobicho
Norway79 Posts
On April 05 2011 00:37 Severedevil wrote: This complaint happens a lot, and I'm still bewildered by it. Can't you just Queen/Drone --> Spines @ 6:00 with a spore @ 7:00 (to block DT if your opponent hasn't already revealed his hand), and then flood with Speedlings or Roaches against pretty much any PvZ opening? Obviously as soon as Protoss expands you can tech up and cut back on unit production. . If you queen/drone till the 6minute mark you are dead by the 4gate easy peasy. Personally Air is not that much of a problem for me as I like early upgrades, which will in return give me fast detection (spore crawlers). Try flooding a protoss with Zerglings and roaches, only to have him let a few in between the forcefield. Try flooding a 1 base Terran which has invested more in army than you have cause you've gone with eco (2 bases) Try flooding a Protoss who already is killing your nat Try flooding a, I can make quite alot more of theese. Flooding is just a bad idea, 2 base against 1 base that early. If you mean simply just building a lot of units after X amount of time, this doesnt work. As 4 gate or eco build will own you most of the time if you balance it just slightly wrong. am I not suppose to tech up against a 1 base colo, or 1 base double starport. What? On April 05 2011 00:37 Severedevil wrote:n. Terran has obvious tells for whether or not they're teching. . I'm sorry what? How can you possible tell what the Terran is doing if he has a supply depot and a barrack on the bottom of his ramp? You can't. (ye okey, you can on some maps, but only a few where you can scout at the right time, and you can always miss the buildings) Same goes for any kind of wall in. That is of course unless the Terran doesn't play mind games and just has what he is teching to standing by the ramp, which most high players will not do. On April 04 2011 23:35 Toadvine wrote: So, as I see it, the problem with Zerg isn't so much that they can't scout well enough, but that they have no "safe" builds that can deal with everything up to a certain point without sacrificing a lot of economy. Whether this is inherent, and such builds simply do not exist, or if Zergs simply haven't found them yet, I'm not sure. Some options are pretty obvious and are already being implemented, like getting an early third Queen/evo chamber to counteract possible Stargate play, or a Spinecrawler at the natural to deflect any surprise Hellions. I think this is actually spot on. Giving Zerg easy scouting might not be a good idea, there should always be some randomness. But ZvP can often feel like "If he's not doing X(4gate/FE/other) now, I'm dead)". And I'd be ok with that if Protoss felt somehow the same way, but they don't. | ||
|
Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On April 05 2011 01:00 decaf wrote: No, you can't. It's real nice that you got a spore for AA and detection back at home, but that won't help you with your attack :/ In case you didn't know. 1 zealot > any realistic number of zerglings. 1 vray/DT > any realsitic number of roaches. 1 Sentry -> enough time to get vrays/DTs/a big enough army out. ??? This is a high-econ defensive play. You're not trying to break the Protoss's main, you're trying to safely acquire two saturated bases. | ||
|
Ichobicho
Norway79 Posts
On April 05 2011 01:15 Severedevil wrote: ??? This is a high-econ defensive play. You're not trying to break the Protoss's main, you're trying to safely acquire two saturated bases. making only army at one point in the game is not high econ defensive play. It's High econ play into High defensive play(were you will loose having the best econ eventually). | ||
|
Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
Or you might spot four gates early, pump units, and find your opponent kept making probes and did a fairly high eco four-gate, which eventually just overpowers you. Or they can make four gates, let you scout it, cancel one and expand. It's a really fine line. Mind games are very strong against zerg, even at a pro level (cancel nexus into sentry heavy four gate!). | ||
|
awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Zerg love to take lots of bases and macro up. But there are a boatload of 2 and even 3 base timing pushes that Terran and Toss can execute that are nightmarishly hard for Zergs to survive. A lot of "macro" maps have a setup whereby it is very, very easy to get to 3 bases, and becomes progressively more difficult after that. This lets Terran and Toss FE with impunity and execute nasty, nasty timing pushes every time. Shakuras Plateau, especially in its old incarnation, fell victim to this syndrome a lot. In addition, there is, as you say, the scouting issue which is worse for Zerg than for anyone else. A lot of popular Terran builds aren't terribly strong in the lategame, so unless they're executing a specific timing push like I outlined above, they'll lose a macro game against Z or P. Now, I don't know that this is necessarily intrinsic to the race, as there are some Terran who have success with an econ-oriented macro strat, but they're rare and I think most Terrans aren't at all used to playing that way. Bigger maps therefore can push a lot of Terrans to just focus on timing pushes, which become predictable and eventually counterable. Mutas are also a horrific nightmare for Terran to try to deal with on huge maps, because until you have a few Thors up there's no real way to execute a major push without losing all your workers to muta harassment. Protoss, IMO, have it easier and easier the bigger maps get, for a few reasons: 1.) Warp gates. Distance is a non-factor to most of the Protoss army. This cannot be overstated. Long rush distances mean something to Terran and Zerg--they introduce a sizable defender's advantage. terran can push out, Zerg will see what's comign and will have time to pump out a ton of units to help deal with it. But one pylon can go down, and suddenly Toss has an army at your door and can continuously reinforce it. Simply put, expanding map distance makes attacking much harder for two of the races than it does for the third. 2.) The deathball. Terran don't want to let Zerg macro up, and Zerg don't want to let Terran execute a number of their nastiest timing pushes. But nobody wants to let Protoss build their deathball. If you have a map that just lets each side macro and tech up for a while to their heart's content, it makes it very easy for Protoss to build an unstable lasertoss army that will melt anything else in the game. At that point, it doesn't matter if Zerg is 2 bases ahead, nothing they can throw at the Protoss will stop them--especially if, as many Protoss do, the P builds a bunch of extra gateways so they can instantly remax and reinforce with warp-in cycles of 10+ units. 3.) Blink and cliffwalking. Nearly every big map has a decent number of cliffs dividing it up, which artifically expands the length by forcing units to choose roundabout routes. Unless, that is, you have a way to bypass cliffs completely. Which Protoss do for two of their most important staple units--Stalkers and Colossi. This makes the Protoss deathball vastly more mobile than, say, a Terran mech army (Terran bio is really mobile, but melts to Colossi). Terran do have reapers--but stalkers and colossi are actual threats and used all the time in every matchup, whereas reapers are scouts/harassers and not used much. 4.) Phoenixes and Void Rays. Every Zerg knows what a nightmare it is trying to wrest air superiority away from a Toss who has committed to Stargate play, and a strong Phoenix/Void Ray composition can be incredibly fast and mobile, and capable of dishing out huge dps. Zerg have something like this in ZvT in their muta death flocks, but Toss are less vulnerable to that. Terran really only have banshee cheese, as despite Vikings' incredible effectiveness as air superiority fighters they are too slow and vulnerable to stalkers to be allowed to fly around without ground army support. These 4 factors mean that the bigger the map, the deadlier Protoss becomes in a way that is not true for T or Z. | ||
|
CidO
United States695 Posts
We're just throwing our hands in the air and saying "well shit, i can't beat 4gate". Why not do a variation of 7RR as typical vP? Save that 100gas you'd be spending on ling speed and spend it on something else. A protoss will be all too happy on 4gate 1 gas to just make zealots to take out slings. A small group of 8-10 lings will be more than happy to distract a couple of stalkers while the roaches take out the zealots - all the while the spine crawler is poking people with a stick. Is it the perfect solution to a perfectly executed 4gate? I don't know, but it helps me beat diamond protoss 4gaters. As a race, we're falling into a rut and just giving up because the "most efficient build" isn't always working. Guess what, once 4gate doesn't 100% work anymore because zerg found a safe build to use, I'm sure the standard protoss will change (and god help me not break a monitor if it goes into phoenix harass) | ||
| ||
OSC
Mid Season Playoffs
MaNa vs SHIN
SKillous vs ShoWTimE
Bunny vs TBD
Cham vs TBD
[ Submit Event ] |
|
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Dota 2 Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Other Games summit1g9120 shahzam728 JimRising  539WinterStarcraft450 Maynarde147 ViBE123 RuFF_SC285 Mew2King80 NeuroSwarm57 semphis_13 |
|
RSL Revival
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
Maestros of the Game
Serral vs Ryung
ByuN vs Zoun
BSL Team Wars
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
CranKy Ducklings
RSL Revival
GuMiho vs Cham
ByuN vs TriGGeR
Cosmonarchy
TriGGeR vs YoungYakov
YoungYakov vs HonMonO
HonMonO vs TriGGeR
Maestros of the Game
Solar vs Bunny
Clem vs Rogue
[BSL 2025] Weekly
RSL Revival
Cure vs Bunny
Creator vs Zoun
Maestros of the Game
Maru vs Lambo
herO vs ShoWTimE
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
