|
These 4 factors mean that the bigger the map, the deadlier Protoss becomes in a way that is not true for T or Z.
Yeah, that.
Increasing the map size was almost entirely an attempt to help Zerg out to survive against Terran one-base and even two-base all-in style play, and to some extent Protoss one-base play, as well as protect Protoss from Terran one-base play.
But alongside that, Protoss players became very adept at expanding safely against both Protoss and Zerg, while macro Terran builds are difficult to be both safe and economical. Watching a Terran with a CC in base bunkering up in fear of 3-gate expanding Protoss exerting a heavy contain lately is really eye opening. And Protoss lategame is very scary for everyone.
So now we're in an awkward situation where Terran really struggles to put much pressure on Zerg on the huge maps, and where Protoss can indiscriminately expand without much fear of reprisal. And even if Protoss doesn't make use of its attacking power, the fact they could limits the builds from Terran (and to some extent Zerg), much like the threat of cloaked banshees forces an earlyish robo from Protoss, even if no starport is ever made.
I don't really know if macro-Terran has been properly explored in ZvT, as frankly there was never much need to on smaller maps. But ZvP and TvP on large maps is certainly much more favourable to Protoss than it is on small maps.
(Whether all that is okay and balanced, I don't know, but making larger maps to help out Zerg against T has really had some serious unintended consequences in my opinion.)
|
...
If you've already decided that Zerg can't do anything, the problem is you.
Queen/Spine/Drone will not be broken by a frontal assault or an aerial assault. One base Terran or Protoss will not economically overpower a two-base Zerg who is pumping drones. If your opponent insists on one-basing, he will have to all-in and you will win. If your opponent expands, you can tech and there isn't a problem.
Go pester Spanishwa in his thread if you don't think Zerg can open high econ defensive on two bases.
|
It´s mostly about timing. Do you not see the protoss put up an expansion at 5:50-6:10? Start building units. Does he move out? If he doesn´t have a huge army to attack you, you get an evo chamber, one spore per base, on some maps one good positioned spore is enough to handle dts (around 7-7:30 depending on build, sentry or no sentry). Then get additional queens all while droning hard, after one additional queen at your main get lair and be prepared for air. If he hasn´t expoed by now it´s a big all in and you should go pure units at this point.
|
Here is a simple solution that every Zerg should do against toss. Try scouting with a drone. There is no way a toss can kill a drone b4 the first ranged unit comes out. Unless he walls off completely, he cannot stop you from getting information.
Then you might say well this doesn't help because he hasn't thrown down the 3 extra gates or the Stargate until the first stalker appears. Well I will tell you just steal a gas. If he is going Stargate play, then you just successfully stalled it. If he is FEing on sentries and zealots, you just stalled it. If he is 4gating, you will know because you can always cancel the drone and scout. Stealing gas is powerful, use it.
I personally do it against Terran because some early tank and banshees 1base all-ins are difficult for me to handle. It is by far the simplest solution.
|
Zerg scouting is obviously a problem but I think hatchery tech overlord speed upgrades would make zerg scouting way too easy unless they modify the upgrade speed
|
I think a bigger issue with the large maps is that they more easily allow for all races to max out easily, which hurts Zerg in a disproportionate way. A maxed Protoss especially is pretty much invincible, but a maxed Zerg isn't nearly as big of a threat. Even if a deathball is scouted, Zerg still has a pretty high chance of losing in the late-game.
|
Zergs biggest problem is it has no early units that are multi roll in nature thus making them very susceptible to build order losses
Terran
Has the marine which is both high DPS and more importantly has range 5 and can shoot up. If you build a few of these at the start of the game + the added bonus of free bunkers, wall ins and the ComSat Scan makes it almost impervious to build order losses.
Protoss
Has the Stalker which has good health reasonable damage, range 6, shoot up and high mobility. While it comes out a little later than the marine its still a very good all round unit. The only thing Protoss has to worry about is Bancheese from Terran, hence most Protoss players go for a Robo early to get the all important Observer out . Also Sentries are an amazing unit as we all know
Hallucinated Phoenix is also available if the player is worried about checking out the opponent early.
Zerg
No race struggles with Balance more than this one. One dimensional units are its greatest curse. Whenever there is balance issue in this game its almost always Zerg related
It has no multi role unit until Hydras mid game, no ability to block off its ramp and no fast scouting methods early on unlike the other races.
I really do think Blizzard should just bite the bullet and make a massive change to this race to prevent coin-flip early game.Either:-
1/ Improve Queen into a viable unit for defence
2/ Swap Hydra with Roach in Tech Tree ( adjust cost/ unit strength)
3/ Make Spine crawlers multi roll with better build times and rooting times
This has all been hashed over in many posts in the past and tbh I don't think anything will be done about it. I really do think Zerg is currently a poorly designed race in its current state
|
On April 04 2011 21:23 Ichobicho wrote:
1. It's not hard to not show the Stalker / 1 Stalkers. It can still be a FE or Air(air is rare tho). But 1 stalkers hints at it yes.
2. saved up chrono for cyber is not the only way to do a 4 gate. And most don't do it that way cause it's obvious what they are doing. Why would they show you they are 4 gateing 3 minutes into the game?
3. Rarely does P go anything but Cyber after GW(if it's GW first). I'm sorry but saying Cyber after GW hints at 4gate just makes me doubt your whole post. Cyber after GW tells you it's not some Mass Zealot cheese.
4. I don't want to grab an extractor. I need the probe for extra eco (which is important even against a 4 gate). Stealing the gas can result in the Stalkers/zealot 4gate which is one of the worst 4 gates, it can also be 3gate forge expand, so you cant mass army.
5. there are plenty of 4gates which uses 2 gas.
I can spot a potential 4gate. The problem is that in many cases it can also be a potential FE. If I go mass Eco I loose to 4 gate, mass defense I loose to FE. If I go for something balanced, it can still be hard to hold the 4 gate.
1. It's impossible not to show either a stalker or a sentry, as your worker is faster than the zealot, and losing your worker before a ranged unit can kill it off simply means you sucked and should micro better.
2. Non-saved up chrono for a cyber means delayed 4 gate, the less time that passes, the weaker it gets, and the more your expansion and drone count kicks in. The whole purpose of the 4gate is to do it as fast as possible and abuse the massive army you're going to throw at an opponent who's underprepared.
3. Obviously. It's all part of the same build tho and not as binary as CY after GW = 4gate. One gas, saved up chronos, CY after GW, Stalker as second unit, chrono boosts on the CY and instant warp in research will indicate the 4gate enough that you should prepare for it.
4. Whatever. Grabbing an extractor is one way of doing it. If you don't want to do it, then don't. That also means you have to get your probe out before the stalker comes out which is lost scouting for you. That one probe mining for two minutes isn't going to be the difference of you holding a 4gate or not.
5. And they're all lower economy than your standard 4gate. You should never cross out a rush just because it's delayed, but it also means that if it comes, it's going to be weaker. And how can you not scout the FE? A 4gate will come at around 6 minutes in, have a ling at his natural and check for the expansion around 4-5 minutes. Anything else can't be called a FE.
|
There's a reason why the best Zerg in the world is nicknamed the detective Zerg. NesTea just has a knack for figuring out what crazy cheeses are coming. Going into the game with "What the hell are they going to try to do to me" at the forefront of your mind is the correct way to play Zerg I think. For the first 10 minutes of every game I try to play detective as well since those are the minutes that give me the most trouble.
If you can't scout their base, you just have to make educated guesses through experience and play safe. Getting an evo chamber and an extra queen pretty much always seems like the best response when you don't know what's coming, since it covers the most bases through detection and air defense.
|
I don't understand why so many non-Zerg players are discussing something that only who plays Zerg can understand...
what I do in big maps is to send my overlord to the center of the map and my scout drone to the nearest spawn position.
sometimes the overlord can see from where his scouting worker is coming from and my overlord won't be so far away from the enemy's base.
|
On April 05 2011 04:14 Tachion wrote:
There's a reason why the best Zerg in the world is nicknamed the detective Zerg. NesTea just has a knack for figuring out what crazy cheeses are coming. Going into the game with "What the hell are they going to try to do to me" at the forefront of your mind is the correct way to play Zerg I think. For the first 10 minutes of every game I try to play detective as well since those are the minutes that give me the most trouble.
If you can't scout their base, you just have to make educated guesses through experience and play safe. Getting an evo chamber and an extra queen pretty much always seems like the best response when you don't know what's coming, since it covers the most bases through detection and air defense.
All top level zerg do this, if you watch closely.
Quessing games do not belong in a strategy game. If a player is willing to get behind economically by throwing overlords away, then they should be able to scout. Terrans can scan anywhere for an econ hit and a protoss can make extremely cheap, cloaked observers if they invest into a robo.
Both of these come out long before a zerg hits lair, and are needed less because T and P dictate the game.
|
On April 05 2011 04:21 Mailing wrote:
Quessing games do not belong in a strategy game. If a player is willing to get behind economically by throwing overlords away, then they should be able to scout. Terrans can scan anywhere for an econ hit and a protoss can make extremely cheap, cloaked observers if they invest into a robo.
Both of these come out long before a zerg hits lair, and are needed less because T and P dictate the game.
Except scanning is the very definition of guessing, and doesn't necessarily show you the key building you're looking for, and observers come in later than most cheese.
|
On April 05 2011 04:21 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 04:14 Tachion wrote:
There's a reason why the best Zerg in the world is nicknamed the detective Zerg. NesTea just has a knack for figuring out what crazy cheeses are coming. Going into the game with "What the hell are they going to try to do to me" at the forefront of your mind is the correct way to play Zerg I think. For the first 10 minutes of every game I try to play detective as well since those are the minutes that give me the most trouble.
If you can't scout their base, you just have to make educated guesses through experience and play safe. Getting an evo chamber and an extra queen pretty much always seems like the best response when you don't know what's coming, since it covers the most bases through detection and air defense. All top level zerg do this, if you watch closely. Quessing games do not belong in a strategy game. If a player is willing to get behind economically by throwing overlords away, then they should be able to scout. Terrans can scan anywhere for an econ hit and a protoss can make extremely cheap, cloaked observers if they invest into a robo. Both of these come out long before a zerg hits lair, and are needed less because T and P dictate the game.
obs comes out way before zerg hits lair? what game are you playing??
|
On April 05 2011 04:28 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 04:21 Mailing wrote:On April 05 2011 04:14 Tachion wrote:
There's a reason why the best Zerg in the world is nicknamed the detective Zerg. NesTea just has a knack for figuring out what crazy cheeses are coming. Going into the game with "What the hell are they going to try to do to me" at the forefront of your mind is the correct way to play Zerg I think. For the first 10 minutes of every game I try to play detective as well since those are the minutes that give me the most trouble.
If you can't scout their base, you just have to make educated guesses through experience and play safe. Getting an evo chamber and an extra queen pretty much always seems like the best response when you don't know what's coming, since it covers the most bases through detection and air defense. All top level zerg do this, if you watch closely. Quessing games do not belong in a strategy game. If a player is willing to get behind economically by throwing overlords away, then they should be able to scout. Terrans can scan anywhere for an econ hit and a protoss can make extremely cheap, cloaked observers if they invest into a robo. Both of these come out long before a zerg hits lair, and are needed less because T and P dictate the game. obs comes out way before zerg hits lair? what game are you playing??
Umm yea.. all races need better means of scouting I think. They all rather bad and it's much harder to stop stuff now days.
|
It sucks, but you just have to find an opening that is safe. I recommend 16h/15p. You get spines, queens, creep, and full 2base saturation before most timing pushes hit you. As soon as you hit full mineral saturation, you take all 4 gas and tech hard (I rush lair and ling speed, scout, then choose my tech path). It's surprisingly easy to hold off an early push with 4 spines and 4 queens, especially with your creep spread insanely far as it will be with all those queens. Remember to transfuse and SPEND YOUR MONEY on what you need as soon as the larva is there and you can afford it.
Unless it's ZvZ. then there's no way to know he's not just gonna 2 spine+ling rush you, even on a giant map, and even if you went 14pool you won't have anything.....
|
So, I was thinking.
I've never quite understood why Zergs feel they can only produce either drones or units at one time. It's entirely possible to individually select larva and make some of them drones and some of them units.
I mean, if a push MIGHT be coming, instead of guessing and saying "he's probably faking, I'll make drones", why not make half drones and half units?
I think a lot of the reason Zergs lose is because they think they need to spend all 3 larva on drones all the time, or all 3 larva on units all the time. I'm not suggesting that as a solution or anything but I feel like it's something people don't consider enough.
Or I could be completely wrong. I figured I'd just throw my relatively innocent and "untainted" viewpoint into the mix.
|
I agree with the OP, and based on the responses I'm seeing, there's a ton of posters in this thread who are not playing ZvX at even a moderately high level.
It really is a guessing game playing zerg, if you guess right, you don't die (i.e. you are even, not ahead), and if you guess wrong, you die.
There isn't one single zerg build that is safe vs everything, this is why it's so important for zerg to be able to scout what their opponent is doing.
For example, vs void rays or phoenix you should be making an extra queen and spores at each base. This is the correct response against void rays, or phoenix, or dt. But if protoss does a 4gate, you die. If protoss does 3gate expand, you are now behind in econ. If protoss did blink stalkers, you die.
Another example, in ZvT if you are unable to scout igniter hellions and you didn't blindly put down a roach warren and get roaches, you are dead most of the time. I've seen countless replays where zerg isn't able to see blue flame hellions, tries to survive with queen/spine/zerglings, and either dies or loses almost all of their drones because they don't have any roaches to deter the hellions (here's a recent example of this happening).
There are many different 1 base strategies that both terran and protoss can use, and while a few of them share the same response (like void rays & dt), most of them require completely different responses, and you can't just simply make roach warren, lings, extra queens, fast lair, spores, evo chamber, and baneling nest without completely crippling your econ against a standard build.
The truth is, you can keep your drone alive in his base as long as possible, continually scout the ramp with zerglings, and sacrifice two overlords, and still not be able to determine what your opponent is doing. At this point you are forced to guess what your opponent is doing, if you guess wrong, you die. This happens even in tournaments ALL the time.
Oh and I also agree with the OP that large maps exacerbates the problem, because you can't get 2 overlords to their start location in time, and depending on the position, you may not even be able to sac one overlord in time (typhon peaks is a good example of this, if you spawn vertical to your opponent, your initial overlord won't be in the right spot, you need to sac the overlord from the side to avoid going directly over the ramp).
edit: I don't necessarily have a solution for this, but I do recognize it as a problem with zerg early-game.
|
Lately I've been using my second 100 gas for lair, and getting a fast overseer. Makes scouting on larger maps not as difficult. Sometimes I put down a spire also, and it helps to stop some of the air harass that is sometimes difficult to hold off.
|
nobody has mentioned hallucination as Protoss' early scouting option, before they ever think about getting a robo. It's so good, and useful throughout the game, and comes out very early if Protoss so chooses.
Just imagine if zerg had a tier 1 spell, we could make a fake mutalisk and be able to indefinitely scout EVERYTHING that the opponent is doing, as many times as we want (or had the energy for)
that would certainly solve a lot of the "guessing game" issues that current zergs are forced to play
or give us Overlord speed at tier 1, researchable from the hatchery at 100/100. That would be on par with Hallucination IMO.
|
Zergs should use more changelings
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
