|
On April 06 2011 16:05 Zerokaiser wrote:
Siege tanks and a protoss ball don't really care about any number of spinecrawlers.
You recommend "droning up and makings LOTS of spinecrawlers", but you also recommend getting 6-10 zerglings, which is already grossly overmaking lings. If you asked most pro zergs, I bet they'd tell you that making 10 zerglings that early is equivalent to all-inning. Not only that, but LOTS of spinecrawlers take LOTS of drones. We lose drones when we make buildings.
You say imply that spinecrawlers and queens are enough to defend against a 4gate, and I really don't believe this is true. If you want to go into custom games and test that, I'd love to try. For it to be true, you would need to cover every angle on your natural with enough spinecrawlers to hold off ~20 protoss units, and by that point transfuse doesn't do anything. Spinecrawlers are only effective with support from an army. The point of defending a 4gate is to surround the protoss units in range of the spines, but where the spines can't be hit back.
Not only that, but let's think about the numbers involved here.
You want at least 2 queens, 6 lings, it would probably take 8-10 spinecrawlers to make a protoss turn away, so that's 8-10 drones down the drain at 150 minerals a pop.
Best case scenario, even without making any lings, you're recommending a 1500 mineral, 8 drone investment by the 5:40 mark solely to defend against something that might not even be coming. There is literally no way in fucking hell that the zerg player is even close to economically even at this point, even if the protoss player did exactly what you wanted and 4gated directly into spinecrawlers and stood there for 20 seconds on hold position.
The point I was trying to make is that Zerglings are usually part of the Zerg defense, BUT they are extremely squishy and need to be reproduced A LOT. Spine Crawlers can hold out longer and thus give you more drones for workers in the end and this brings you to a point where you should have an earlier economic advantage.
The problem of Zerg units is that they are weaker on a 1v1 basis when compared against other races and thus they need large numbers to make up for it. Zerg cant get large numbers early on if they continue to lose 10 lings or 4 Roaches here and there. Thats where the Spine Crawler-Queen combo comes in and the faster economy should help enabling the growth of the "Zerg swarm". Obviously you need some mobile units to defend EARLY ON, but the Spines and Queens are nice block enemies comppletely while your mobile units are prodding and poking.
The Siege Tanks and Protoss ball you mention are not something you have to worry early on, so thats not something I was talking about. Obviously you need to have transitioned into your kind of army by that time, but starting with Spine Crawler-Queen should leave you with a better economy to switch.
Btw. in my kind of logic I count the drones as a resource as well and 1 Spine Crawler for 150 minerals is cheaper than 6 Zerglings for 150 ... because you save 2 larvae. Thats the whole point about Spine Crawlers that you can get more Drones.
The whole point of this thread is SCOUTING and my point of relying more on beefy units / structures to defend early on the very early pressure might not be as successful as it is now and thus making fast scouting unnecessary. Thats the whole point I was trying to make ... the specifics of how to do it are up to the players but the players need to change their way of thinking.
|
On April 06 2011 17:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 16:05 Zerokaiser wrote:
Siege tanks and a protoss ball don't really care about any number of spinecrawlers.
You recommend "droning up and makings LOTS of spinecrawlers", but you also recommend getting 6-10 zerglings, which is already grossly overmaking lings. If you asked most pro zergs, I bet they'd tell you that making 10 zerglings that early is equivalent to all-inning. Not only that, but LOTS of spinecrawlers take LOTS of drones. We lose drones when we make buildings.
You say imply that spinecrawlers and queens are enough to defend against a 4gate, and I really don't believe this is true. If you want to go into custom games and test that, I'd love to try. For it to be true, you would need to cover every angle on your natural with enough spinecrawlers to hold off ~20 protoss units, and by that point transfuse doesn't do anything. Spinecrawlers are only effective with support from an army. The point of defending a 4gate is to surround the protoss units in range of the spines, but where the spines can't be hit back.
Not only that, but let's think about the numbers involved here.
You want at least 2 queens, 6 lings, it would probably take 8-10 spinecrawlers to make a protoss turn away, so that's 8-10 drones down the drain at 150 minerals a pop.
Best case scenario, even without making any lings, you're recommending a 1500 mineral, 8 drone investment by the 5:40 mark solely to defend against something that might not even be coming. There is literally no way in fucking hell that the zerg player is even close to economically even at this point, even if the protoss player did exactly what you wanted and 4gated directly into spinecrawlers and stood there for 20 seconds on hold position. The point I was trying to make is that Zerglings are usually part of the Zerg defense, BUT they are extremely squishy and need to be reproduced A LOT. Spine Crawlers can hold out longer and thus give you more drones for workers in the end and this brings you to a point where you should have an earlier economic advantage. The problem of Zerg units is that they are weaker on a 1v1 basis when compared against other races and thus they need large numbers to make up for it. Zerg cant get large numbers early on if they continue to lose 10 lings or 4 Roaches here and there. Thats where the Spine Crawler-Queen combo comes in and the faster economy should help enabling the growth of the "Zerg swarm". Obviously you need some mobile units to defend EARLY ON, but the Spines and Queens are nice block enemies comppletely while your mobile units are prodding and poking. The Siege Tanks and Protoss ball you mention are not something you have to worry early on, so thats not something I was talking about. Obviously you need to have transitioned into your kind of army by that time, but starting with Spine Crawler-Queen should leave you with a better economy to switch. Btw. in my kind of logic I count the drones as a resource as well and 1 Spine Crawler for 150 minerals is cheaper than 6 Zerglings for 150 ... because you save 2 larvae. Thats the whole point about Spine Crawlers that you can get more Drones. The whole point of this thread is SCOUTING and my point of relying more on beefy units / structures to defend early on the very early pressure might not be as successful as it is now and thus making fast scouting unnecessary. Thats the whole point I was trying to make ... the specifics of how to do it are up to the players but the players need to change their way of thinking.
You know what happens when you base your defense on Spine crawlers? The opponent either walks around them and harass/kill the natural if they are to clumped up. Or they engage 2 at a time if the spine crawlers are spread.
On most of the current maps you need a good spread(cause naturals are wiiide) and 5-6 Spinecrawlers if your only basing it on queens + spinecrawlers.
Players need to change their way of thinking?
If you defend a all in with pure Spinecrawlers, how hard is it for the opponent to take a base and get up a economy? It's not very all in when it's against only defensive buildings. Because even if it doesn't work, you get 0 pressure back on you after.
While if you defend all ins with army + Spine Crawler, you should have won the game cause you can deny the 2nd base.
You need to realize why people are doing what they are doing today, and not blame them for not beeing able to change their way of thinking when it makes little sense to do so.
Also a defense based on Queens and Spinecrawlers is so easy to counter(the spanishiwa build). How? Take a fast 3rd base(or double expand if your on one base), and I'm never doing that build again when I realized that. Because more and more will do this when they realize what is happening.
|
I am 100% sure zerg will get an early game unit that can scout well in the next expansion... zerg is so fucked by scout denying/fake outs its not even funny.
|
On April 06 2011 17:40 Ichobicho wrote:
You know what happens when you base your defense on Spine crawlers? The opponent either walks around them and harass/kill the natural if they are to clumped up. Or they engage 2 at a time if the spine crawlers are spread.
On most of the current maps you need a good spread(cause naturals are wiiide) and 5-6 Spinecrawlers if your only basing it on queens + spinecrawlers.
Players need to change their way of thinking?
If you defend a all in with pure Spinecrawlers, how hard is it for the opponent to take a base and get up a economy? It's not very all in when it's against only defensive buildings. Because even if it doesn't work, you get 0 pressure back on you after.
While if you defend all ins with army + Spine Crawler, you should have won the game cause you can deny the 2nd base.
You need to realize why people are doing what they are doing today, and not blame them for not beeing able to change their way of thinking when it makes little sense to do so.
Also a defense based on Queens and Spinecrawlers is so easy to counter(the spanishiwa build). How? Take a fast 3rd base(or double expand if your on one base), and I'm never doing that build again when I realized that. Because more and more will do this when they realize what is happening.
First, I can think of two currently used maps which have a wiiide natural to defend: Metalopolis and Xel'Naga caverns. Do you notice the connection? Yes, they are Blizzard made. None of the GSL maps are without choke points to focus defenses on and these two maps also arent the biggest maps either ... which was the point of the OP ... scouting on large maps.
Second, if you are defending against an all-in with Spine Crawlers and Queens (which cost ZERO larvae) you should have a much better economy than the opponent who probably cut workers to make his all-in work in the first place. He wont be able to expand by snapping his fingers and Spine Crawler-Queen defense is all about higher efficiency per unit compared to pure Zergling / Roach defense. Zerglings are more or less "throw away units" and that is lost resources.
Basically the early problems of Zerg is that they are always losing units because they have the weakest units. Protoss and Terrans can run in and kill a few Zerglings and you have to reproduce them ... which totally screws your drone production. Spine Crawlers and Queens break this "oh I need to reproduce my defensive units to survive" cycle because they have a lot more hit points and dont die in a few seconds. Also the Queens add the benefit of creep spread and thus close scouting.
|
On April 06 2011 17:57 Rabiator wrote:
First, I can think of two currently used maps which have a wiiide natural to defend: Metalopolis and Xel'Naga caverns. Do you notice the connection? Yes, they are Blizzard made. None of the GSL maps are without choke points to focus defenses on and these two maps also arent the biggest maps either ... which was the point of the OP ... scouting on large maps.
It's funny how you tell me I don't know what this thread is about, and then you say Blizzard maps doesn't count.Typhoon peaks (blizzard map) is mentioned specifically in the first post. If we play the maps regularly they count, you cant just disclude them cause they are made by X, or used by Y. Who made the maps also has nothing to do with anything related to this thread, it's how the maps looks that matters.
GSL uses several Blizzard maps, one of which is Typhoon Peaks(used in GSTL so might not be used in GSL but still). Typhoon Peaks is one of the worst maps to scout on(already mentioned in first post).
I don't get your point here? The scouting isn't a problem on all maps, but on some(cause some maps you can use OL), as the OP mentions.
On April 06 2011 17:57 Rabiator wrote:
Second, if you are defending against an all-in with Spine Crawlers and Queens (which cost ZERO larvae) you should have a much better economy than the opponent who probably cut workers to make his all-in work in the first place. He wont be able to expand by snapping his fingers and Spine Crawler-Queen defense is all about higher efficiency per unit compared to pure Zergling / Roach defense. Zerglings are more or less "throw away units" and that is lost resources.
You do realize when Zerg defends we make army and not drones, so we cut workers as well. So we wont saturate up two bases while defending an all in. Sometimes you don't have a view of his natural, so you don't know when you can stop making units and drone up. They probably also start producing workers before this.
On paper a Zerg stops unit production when the Allin stops, in reality the Zerg stop army production when he knows the all in is stopped.
Queens are also not a 100% cost effective unit, if they die before they get to use some energy (they need +25 after spawning to transfuse). Then I wouldn't call them cost effective against Ground all ins.
On April 06 2011 17:43 Vei wrote:
I am 100% sure zerg will get an early game unit that can scout well in the next expansion... zerg is so fucked by scout denying/fake outs its not even funny.
I don't think that will happen, I rather Zerg get some unit which is better at defending early.
I think Hydras with reduced dps would be great, and then you put a dps upgrade in the Hydra Den that requires Lair(which makes the dps what it is now), the range would also require Lair.
OL speed at hatch tech will just be to good imo. something to complement the T1 would be better
|
the point that most non-zergs dont seem to understand is that preparing for things that wont come causes a huge disadvantage
for example its zvt and all you see are marines; then you assume that there will be a factory for hellions so you go for spine crawlers and/or roaches - thats a lot of resources and drones in early stage; if you dont have more scouting information everything could happen - a 2nd factory with tanks, more barracks or stargates
preparing for everything would mean spine crawlers/roach warren, baneling nest, extra queens, evolution chamber and spore crawlers for detection and the result is a weaker economy and even worse a slower lair tech and without their speed upgrades banelings and roaches are terrible off creep; in zvp its much better as you dont rely on these upgrades and lair units
|
I dont understand zergs, First most of you rage because the maps are to small now its to big? Not to seem like a idiot but make 2 overseer and sack it in from 2 different directions. And you know EXACTLY what your opponent have/dont have.
|
On April 06 2011 19:44 asha wrote:
I dont understand zergs, First most of you rage because the maps are to small now its to big? Not to seem like a idiot but make 2 overseer and sack it in from 2 different directions. And you know EXACTLY what your opponent have/dont have.
it takes alot of time to get two overlords across for example taldarim cross posi
if you get there bei 5minutes he will already have atleast 3-4 sentrys / stalkers / marines snipe of your overlords and you wont be able too see alot
|
some maps suck like hell
I hate how I cant harass with medivac, leave it somewhere to harass some more later. It's all alnd and you can't squeeze medivacs/banshees in. For zergs it's even worse. Some maps are made like you can't even make a flank or a decent drop. They counter it with a few units who catch up to your dropships, coz everywhere is too much land.
|
What I've been trying to do is:
1) Send first overlord into middle of map.
2) 10 drone scout (as in, right when I spend the 50 minerals on the drone after the overlord).
3) Send the drone scout to the same vertical position as I am in (if I am at 9, send it to 12), that way I can position the overlord between the two other bases, and when I find the correct position, move behind the right base.
4) Send the second overlord against protoss (not terran) to the other side of their base, to check on expansion timing. Against terran, I'd rather use the second overlord to be strategically placed to scout for bunkers against my 15 hatch.
I don't build more than 2 set of lings, and no spine crawlers initially. I just send them off, one ling to xel naga, or scout the map, another to scout their ramp / expansion / move out timing, and 2 to kill off scouting probes / scv's trying to get into my base or place proxy pylons. Most protoss place proxy pylons in the same sort of places, so it's not impossible - but luck based - whether or not you find them before they are done.
I'll still be surprised quite often. Well, I lost most of my playing skill after a two months break too, so not surprising.
edit: If hatcheries spawned with full creep spread allready, mostly this wouldn't be an issue, as you would be much more free to place down buildings to simcity like terran and protoss. Since they don't, you are forced to place your tech in your main where it's easily scanned vs terran, and you won't have time always to place down evo chamber etc near ramp to block it, if you don't use early energy for creep tumour at expansion. Also, a spine crawler would then be able to be placed to deny scv / probe scouting completely much faster, making it more of a guessing game for your opponent.
|
Day[9] isnt taken too serious by certain progamers, but the "non-stop Queens funday monday" showed a style which might even work on the pro level. Sadly Zerg players are too much into the "build a horde of Zerglings" and "Queens are only good for Larva inject" mantras.
There's no doubt that queens are decent jack-of-all-trades, but in many cases you simply can't build enough of them to hold off the timings/cheese. Even if you fast expand or go for a 11/18 BO you will not have a mass of queens ready. Besides, shouldn't building units blindly be discouraged in a strategy game with a race that is designed around the word "reactionary"? I'd rather be able to scout and have my skill/decision making ability (or the lack of it) decide where I take the game to.
|
Completely agree with the scouting issue, especially on Typon Peaks. No way to get overlord to their base if its cross positions. If its top-down its also hard to sneak it past since the air gap is so small, marine / stalker can shoot it down before it can see anything.
|
On April 06 2011 19:44 asha wrote:
I dont understand zergs, First most of you rage because the maps are to small now its to big? Not to seem like a idiot but make 2 overseer and sack it in from 2 different directions. And you know EXACTLY what your opponent have/dont have.
The timing on an overseer is obviously way too late to scout most early game all-ins. In fact rushing a lair will result in instant death against some 4gates.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
