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Large Maps and the Zerg Guessing Game - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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DaCruise
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark2457 Posts
April 04 2011 11:30 GMT
#61
Whenever I am against protoss, my plan is to stay alive through the early game so I make lots of speedlings,,, if he doesnt 4gate I can use those lings to keep map control and delay his first expansion and put him on the defense.
I usually have enough time to pump out an extra queen if I see a void ray crossing the map as it will in most cases fly into an overlord or above my lings long before it arrives at my base. I am not afraid of void rays anymore.
What I also do to make sure I get a drone in my enemys base is scouting at 9. Whatever few minerals I lose by scouting early is totally worth it imo.

Finally I have thumbed down Tal´Darim. Just cant stand ZvZ on that map.
asmo.0
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway318 Posts
April 04 2011 11:38 GMT
#62
The main difference a lot of people don't seem to get is that even though perhaps f ex protoss cant scout any earlier than zerg can, they simply do not need it... Even risky builds can deal with almost anything zerg does, and if you play safe and standard you can for sure handle absolute anything untill hallucination or observer is done and you can react to your opponent.
Dalavita
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1113 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-04 11:42:50
April 04 2011 11:38 GMT
#63
On April 04 2011 20:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
You can make a turn-based game mechanically challenging, too by giving it a poorer interface - but that would obviously be stupid so it's not done.


Difference being that a turn based game wouldn't make a difference what your mechanics were, since you had all the time in the world to pull off what you needed to do. Mechanics are an aspect of RTS games only.

On April 04 2011 20:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but a random silver player that comes up with a strategy that defeats the strategy of Idra or Dimaga and knows the tactical ins and outs of his strategy (e.g. how to disguise his intentions, what to scout for, how his strategy should react to his opponents strategy) should lose, because - dispite him being extremely creative and one step ahead throughout the game - he cannot click the buttons fast enough and precisely enough?


Yes, yes he should. He lacks the mechanics to perform what's needed, which is the skill part of the game.

It's like saying that people in CS if they work together to surround someone and he scores 4 head shots on all of them because he's godly at aiming is unfair.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
April 04 2011 11:42 GMT
#64
On April 04 2011 16:41 TanX wrote:
Played on Typhon Peaks against a Terran as Zerg.

I spawned on the 11 O'clock position and he spawned on the 7 O'clock position - meaning that when I eventually scouted his base, I had to get my overlord all around the map in order to make sure that it arrived (as the ramp is placed along the edge that I would normally pass by - and the base layout means I would need a hero Ovie to have it survive long enough to scout anything placed in-base)... Meanwhile I kept Zerglings at his wall, constantly checking what he was doing.
I could see a single rax from the front, of which he produced some marines.

He moved out with about 4 marines and positioned them as if he was about to lift his CC down to expand, so I kept scouting and droned a little while retaining a few larvas for lings or roaches.
Then I sacrificed 2 Zerglings to run past his marines and into his base, scouting 3 rax MM, and in that same instant he moved out...

I don't know if you have tried that but it takes approximately 2 seconds for the Terran to arrive at your natural, horribly horribly destroying my defences with his MM force - I didn't really stand a chance - didn't even have enough time to get my first batch of roaches out, and at that time my spines were already gone. (I build x2 for defences when I early expo)
Meanwhile, my Overlord wasn't even ready to move into his base to scout. (which would die to his marines anyway)

That made me kind of frustrated.


Hang on hang on. If you scouted with 2 zerglings, what's the problem? Just do that earlier.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
April 04 2011 11:44 GMT
#65
On April 04 2011 20:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but a random silver player that comes up with a strategy that defeats the strategy of Idra or Dimaga and knows the tactical ins and outs of his strategy (e.g. how to disguise his intentions, what to scout for, how his strategy should react to his opponents strategy) should lose, because - dispite him being extremely creative and one step ahead throughout the game - he cannot click the buttons fast enough and precisely enough?


I don't know about should lose, he WILL lose. If he was good enough to come up with that strategy and execute it he wouldn't be in silver.
branflakes14
Profile Joined July 2010
2082 Posts
April 04 2011 11:47 GMT
#66
What happened to Zergs liking large maps?
Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
April 04 2011 11:48 GMT
#67
On April 04 2011 20:38 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 20:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
You can make a turn-based game mechanically challenging, too by giving it a poorer interface - but that would obviously be stupid so it's not done.


Difference being that a turn based game wouldn't make a difference what your mechanics were, since you had all the time in the world to pull off what you needed to do. Mechanics are an aspect of RTS games only.

Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 20:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but a random silver player that comes up with a strategy that defeats the strategy of Idra or Dimaga and knows the tactical ins and outs of his strategy (e.g. how to disguise his intentions, what to scout for, how his strategy should react to his opponents strategy) should lose, because - dispite him being extremely creative and one step ahead throughout the game - he cannot click the buttons fast enough and precisely enough?


Yes, yes he should. He lacks the mechanics to perform what's needed, which is the skill part of the game.

It's like saying that people in CS if they work together to surround someone and he scores 4 head shots on all of them because he's godly at aiming is unfair.


I think we are talking about different stuff. In SC2 in it's current incarnation he will lose and probably also should lose because that's the way the game is. But you you have the choice of a starcraft game where mechanics do not limit you or a game where you need mechanics, would you prefer the later? Because my comments are about what the game should be in response to 5unrise's comment about how the game should have more mechanical barriers so that players can compensate poor decisions by better mechanics.
Ichobicho
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway79 Posts
April 04 2011 11:50 GMT
#68
On April 04 2011 19:52 Ethic wrote:
Get overlord speed, Lair tech is not hard to get to and if you're build orders are fleshed out you can get Overlord speed by 6-7 minute mark.

If you're too much of a cheap ass to get Overlord speed get a Overseer, but tbh, you're better off getting overlord speed.


No way you are holding a 4 gate if you go for that quick Lair + OL speed

Losing when you constantly check the ramp and can't get OL to scout in time(~5:00-30 minutes), but still not being able to figure out what the T/P is doing and then he moves out and steamrolls you. That is the worst way to loose, and it happens a lot.

And to the people who says Zerg should just "play it safe". When zerg does that, we loose badly to eco builds.

I don't think the problem is that Zerg cant scout everything. But currently, the little intel a zerg can get, can result in so many different builds which require different responses( Air-/Groundtiming/Eco ).

Although Typhoon Peaks should be a good Zerg map. It's actually my worst map(think I got around 30% win rate on it(including mirror)), and I wouldn't be surprised if other Zerg has it as a weak map. Because often you don't get to scout what your opponent is doing before he moves out, and at that point it is to late.
leadphyc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States99 Posts
April 04 2011 11:50 GMT
#69
dont worry zergs always six pool me and i scout them last and it kills me on the big maps. its really not fair i feel the big maps invite so much more cheese than the other ones just because of how long it takes to scout.
always go for the win!
5unrise
Profile Joined May 2009
New Zealand646 Posts
April 04 2011 11:55 GMT
#70
On April 04 2011 20:48 Thrombozyt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 20:38 Dalavita wrote:
On April 04 2011 20:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
You can make a turn-based game mechanically challenging, too by giving it a poorer interface - but that would obviously be stupid so it's not done.


Difference being that a turn based game wouldn't make a difference what your mechanics were, since you had all the time in the world to pull off what you needed to do. Mechanics are an aspect of RTS games only.

On April 04 2011 20:19 Thrombozyt wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but a random silver player that comes up with a strategy that defeats the strategy of Idra or Dimaga and knows the tactical ins and outs of his strategy (e.g. how to disguise his intentions, what to scout for, how his strategy should react to his opponents strategy) should lose, because - dispite him being extremely creative and one step ahead throughout the game - he cannot click the buttons fast enough and precisely enough?


Yes, yes he should. He lacks the mechanics to perform what's needed, which is the skill part of the game.

It's like saying that people in CS if they work together to surround someone and he scores 4 head shots on all of them because he's godly at aiming is unfair.


I think we are talking about different stuff. In SC2 in it's current incarnation he will lose and probably also should lose because that's the way the game is. But you you have the choice of a starcraft game where mechanics do not limit you or a game where you need mechanics, would you prefer the later? Because my comments are about what the game should be in response to 5unrise's comment about how the game should have more mechanical barriers so that players can compensate poor decisions by better mechanics.


Well some times what you compensate for with mechanics is not even "poor decisions" but, rather, unlucky decisions or choices that you made with a guess because perfect scouting does not exist. In this situation, it is very easy for a bad player to beat a good one, especially against zerg, which is dependant on scouting, by denying scouting information, since all it takes is a wrong guess no matter how good the zerg is. It is nothing but luck, not even strategy. Given this situation, good players should have the option of falling back onto mechanics to produce a comeback.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
April 04 2011 12:02 GMT
#71
You need good decisions and good mechanics for this game. One does not compensate for the other; they are entwined.
Dalavita
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1113 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-04 12:11:15
April 04 2011 12:05 GMT
#72
On April 04 2011 20:48 Thrombozyt wrote:
I think we are talking about different stuff. In SC2 in it's current incarnation he will lose and probably also should lose because that's the way the game is. But you you have the choice of a starcraft game where mechanics do not limit you or a game where you need mechanics, would you prefer the later? Because my comments are about what the game should be in response to 5unrise's comment about how the game should have more mechanical barriers so that players can compensate poor decisions by better mechanics.


I would definitively take the game that requires good mechanics and has the strategical depth over one that only requires strategy to pull off.

Seeing MKP pull off a marine split against mass banes while sniping overlord drops and doing multi pronged attacks with medivacs is impressive because you know how hard it is to pull off, on top of it being a strategical genius play. Also, players who develop excellent mechanics also open up new strategic play because of what they can do with their units. Just like SC1 was an impressive game because it was hard to pull off, on top of people doing genius plays, SC2 follows in its footsteps.

The mechanics are simplified enough that I don't think anyone could complain about them.

On April 04 2011 20:50 Ichobicho wrote:
Losing when you constantly check the ramp and can't get OL to scout in time(~5:00-30 minutes), but still not being able to figure out what the T/P is doing and then he moves out and steamrolls you. That is the worst way to loose, and it happens a lot.


Please. You can spot a potential 4gate way before your worker gets killed off. 1 gas? cyber after gateway? Stalker as the second unit produced? Saved up chrono boosts for the cyber?

It's probably a 4gate. Hell, zergs have the additional advantage where they can grab an extractor to either force a build, or delay the death of their drone and get additional scouting.
Striding Strider
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom787 Posts
April 04 2011 12:05 GMT
#73
On April 04 2011 16:10 Zerokaiser wrote:
Good luck getting an overlord in my base!


Get overlord speed.
I have a beard. I'm unprofessional.
Barbiero
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Brazil5259 Posts
April 04 2011 12:11 GMT
#74
On April 04 2011 21:05 Striding Strider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 16:10 Zerokaiser wrote:
Good luck getting an overlord in my base!


Get overlord speed.


Yeah, waste 200 gas before the 6-min mark on lair and OL speed just so you can know that you are going to die to a 4gate, since you teched so early.
♥ The world needs more hearts! ♥
Dalavita
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1113 Posts
April 04 2011 12:15 GMT
#75
If you got vision on the xel naga towers you could also snipe the probe coming out to put the pylon down with lings, at that point he won't have to many units and won't kill enough of your lings but it'll delay him greatly and show off the 4gate.
Ichobicho
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway79 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-04 12:24:40
April 04 2011 12:23 GMT
#76
On April 04 2011 21:05 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 20:50 Ichobicho wrote:
Losing when you constantly check the ramp and can't get OL to scout in time(~5:00-30 minutes), but still not being able to figure out what the T/P is doing and then he moves out and steamrolls you. That is the worst way to loose, and it happens a lot.


Please. You can spot a potential 4gate way before your worker gets killed off. 1 gas? cyber after gateway? Stalker as the second unit produced? Saved up chrono boosts for the cyber?

It's probably a 4gate. Hell, zergs have the additional advantage where they can grab an extractor to either force a build, or delay the death of their drone and get additional scouting.


1. It's not hard to not show the Stalker / 1 Stalkers. It can still be a FE or Air(air is rare tho). But 1 stalkers hints at it yes.
2. saved up chrono for cyber is not the only way to do a 4 gate. And most don't do it that way cause it's obvious what they are doing. Why would they show you they are 4 gateing 3 minutes into the game?
3. Rarely does P go anything but Cyber after GW(if it's GW first). I'm sorry but saying Cyber after GW hints at 4gate just makes me doubt your whole post. Cyber after GW tells you it's not some Mass Zealot cheese.
4. I don't want to grab an extractor. I need the probe for extra eco (which is important even against a 4 gate). Stealing the gas can result in the Stalkers/zealot 4gate which is one of the worst 4 gates, it can also be 3gate forge expand, so you cant mass army.
5. there are plenty of 4gates which uses 2 gas.

I can spot a potential 4gate. The problem is that in many cases it can also be a potential FE. If I go mass Eco I loose to 4 gate, mass defense I loose to FE. If I go for something balanced, it can still be hard to hold the 4 gate.
Icx
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Belgium853 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-04 12:24:45
April 04 2011 12:23 GMT
#77
On April 04 2011 21:05 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 20:48 Thrombozyt wrote:
I think we are talking about different stuff. In SC2 in it's current incarnation he will lose and probably also should lose because that's the way the game is. But you you have the choice of a starcraft game where mechanics do not limit you or a game where you need mechanics, would you prefer the later? Because my comments are about what the game should be in response to 5unrise's comment about how the game should have more mechanical barriers so that players can compensate poor decisions by better mechanics.


I would definitively take the game that requires good mechanics and has the strategical depth over one that only requires strategy to pull off.

Seeing MKP pull off a marine split against mass banes while sniping overlord drops and doing multi pronged attacks with medivacs is impressive because you know how hard it is to pull off, on top of it being a strategical genius play. Also, players who develop excellent mechanics also open up new strategic play because of what they can do with their units. Just like SC1 was an impressive game because it was hard to pull off, on top of people doing genius plays, SC2 follows in its footsteps.

The mechanics are simplified enough that I don't think anyone could complain about them.

Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 20:50 Ichobicho wrote:
Losing when you constantly check the ramp and can't get OL to scout in time(~5:00-30 minutes), but still not being able to figure out what the T/P is doing and then he moves out and steamrolls you. That is the worst way to loose, and it happens a lot.


Please. You can spot a potential 4gate way before your worker gets killed off. 1 gas? cyber after gateway? Stalker as the second unit produced? Saved up chrono boosts for the cyber?

It's probably a 4gate. Hell, zergs have the additional advantage where they can grab an extractor to either force a build, or delay the death of their drone and get additional scouting.


See my earlier post.

Let's assume for this situation the overlord didn't reach the base in time, or it suicided, but 1 gate was hidden, but I have this information that you just described.
it just comes down to what the protoss decides to (you could make some arguments for the extractor trick, but if the game is balanced around getting the extractor off, it's just silly.
Hell protoss could just take the extractor slightly earlier, maybe not mine it, or maybe stop mining when the probe is dead etc).

It isn't hard for protoss to just expand at that point or go for a 3gate stargate play or whatever (just like huk did in the shakuras game vs Idra in mlg last night).

Do I prepare for the 4gate, and be behind if he doesn't do it? Because he can still move out with his intitial units to snipe the lings to pretend it's a 4gate

Do I decide to not prepare for the 4gate? Trying to get ahead if he expands or preparing for one of the other builds he does, but if he 4gates I just die anyway?

Or do I a bit of everything? With as result that I am behind if he expo's or I still die to the 4gate?


That is the whole point, this isn't a smart strategical decision, it's just a coinflip, and if I decide right, I am ahead, in all other cases I am dead.

And the game is just decided on either player just picking a certain build, and then just deciding the game upon that.

Refer to my earlier post where I explain it more, but this is just the whole point that everyone is trying to make here.

edit:
Basicly the same that the person above said.
swanny_11
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia46 Posts
April 04 2011 12:28 GMT
#78
On April 04 2011 20:50 leadphyc wrote:
dont worry zergs always six pool me and i scout them last and it kills me on the big maps. its really not fair i feel the big maps invite so much more cheese than the other ones just because of how long it takes to scout.



Even if you dont scout a 6 pool you can just wall with an extra gate why you get your first zeal chronod, or learn to micro probes.

Zerg chooses to defend allins and lose to econ builds, or win econ and lose to allins. Protoss will be slightly behind if his allin fails or outright win.

zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
April 04 2011 13:49 GMT
#79
even if you`re not able to enter the enemys base on larger maps, due to any kind of block, the distance is what makes my zerg love the big maps. If the walking distance is that big, that it takes the enemy more time to come to you then a hatching-cycle takes, zerg is in a comfortable position. Even if you can`t scout, I feel kinda safe and can react properly when the toss or terran moves out. Until that moment you just need an army big enough to defend any kind of harrasment and prepare yourself for multiple scenarios.

I prefer playing drone heavy and expand as soon as possible. When I can`t scout my opponent, I get some anti air (extra queens, spores or hydra den), add the roach warren, zergling speed or/and get the banelings nest. During this time it is extremly important to drone up and make sure you have enough supply to pump out as many (counter)units as possible. If necessary morph spines.

On smaller maps I might get the chance to scout my opponent earlier and keep my drone in his base, but any good player will kill the scout before placing a secret telling structure. Real gosu players might even trick you and place a building, then kill your scout and cancel the building afterwards. Thats why i prefer the larger maps and scout the actual army when my enemy walks out his gates.
keep it deep! @zulison
Xolo
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada107 Posts
April 04 2011 14:00 GMT
#80
This problem is not exclusive to zerg. All three races have terrible scouting during the point in the game when knowing what your opponent is doing is most important.

Blizz should make these changes imo:

- Scan/mule cost 25 energy. scans and mules last half as long. orbitals start with 25 energy.
- Observers can be build out of the nexus, requiring a cybernetics core.
- Overlord speed changed to hatch tech and costs 50/50.

This would mean that there would be a lot less coinflip guessing game builds, and people would be more inclinced to do safe, reliable builds.
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