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On April 05 2011 05:09 BlasiuS wrote:
I agree with the OP, and based on the responses I'm seeing, there's a ton of posters in this thread who are not playing ZvX at even a moderately high level.
People post about it cause zerg players are seen as generally more prone to overexaggeration and "balance whine". It's been like that since release and i guess people want to give a different take on the situation.
You can't just say that people who don't play zerg at high level should keep out and let the thread just fill up with "i agree" posts, no interesting discussion or solution will come of it.
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On April 05 2011 05:23 00Visor wrote:
Zergs should use more changelings
still doesn't solve zerg's early game scouting problems. By the time we can get an overseer and changelings, scouting shouldn't be an issue anyway because you should be getting overlord speed as soon as you get lair anyway....
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The problem with zerg is they need to dedicate on the counter build to hold and move into the mid phase of the game. They do not have a well rounded build that can react to most of the time by making adjustments at the last minute.
The thread really shows who played zerg and who didn't. You don't build random spores around unless you enjoyo losing to 4/6 gates. You don't just build 2 spines around for the heck of it and lol when void comes.
3. Obviously. It's all part of the same build tho and not as binary as CY after GW = 4gate. One gas, saved up chronos, CY after GW, Stalker as second unit, chrono boosts on the CY and instant warp in research will indicate the 4gate enough that you should prepare for it.
Do you have any idea how zerg reacts to it? Build nothing but save larva from 5:10. Tried thinking of abusing it? Power probe, get sentries and forge, expand. There are so many ways to play mind games with 4 gates vs zerg.
Expo cancel 4 gate.
Chrono CCore stargate.
Chrono nexus 4 gate.
start with 2 sentries, get +1 chargelots and 4 gate and the list goes on.
Each needs a different tech buildings and unit comp to counter.
Heck, you can chrono random stuff and zerg will mess up 30% of the time.
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everyone please read my first post its at the top of page three and it answers everything addressed before and after it. furthermeore people have already detailed at length how to scout as zerg and if something happens between the 3 and 8 minute mark that wasn't revealed by your scout the plain story is that the build you just lost to wasn't optimal and you were outplayed by failing to be able to respond to it or micromanage. even at your blindest a zergling at the ramp will see the push out and composition and you will have well over the 44 game seconds required for a larvae cycle and if your existing army plus 12 extra larvae worth of units is unable to counter, you aren't playing safe or smart. complain all you want about nexus cancel 4 gates, air play, dark temps, what have you, it was either
A: revealed by your first scout you just need to learn the tells or
B: not optimal and you should have been prepared blind or your build/style isn't safe or smart. sorry bro.
the only legitimate posts i've read are about how the big maps cater to protoss 3 base play, something i've said repeatedly on these forums, and i'm preparing my opus about how the ridiculous strength of terran bio has spurred map expansion and tipped the scales hugely in protoss' favor, but that's for another day. the pure and simple is big maps are good for zerg early play because you CANNOT DENY that it allows you to drone harder and longer, the only tradeoff is that scouting is more difficult, seriously tho guys read my first post and quit complaining about falling behind due to bad scouting, occassionally you fall behind in starcraft games guys, and occasionally its your fault and not due to something like map design or game balance.
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On April 05 2011 05:09 BlasiuS wrote:Another example, in ZvT if you are unable to scout igniter hellions and you didn't blindly put down a roach warren and get roaches, you are dead most of the time. I've seen countless replays where zerg isn't able to see blue flame hellions, tries to survive with queen/spine/zerglings, and either dies or loses almost all of their drones because they don't have any roaches to deter the hellions ( here's a recent example of this happening).
Wasn't there a recent GSL game where this happened? (I don't mean the MKP expand into blue-flame marine, attack and win game, I mean, another one.)
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albeit this is true, u could look at the other perspective. large maps = long distance to ur base. u could prepare safely in the meantime while still droning hard (2-4 spines) perhaps this will encourage the metagame of producing 3 queens at the start (one for creep and future prep of third hatch). These long distances also could mean u can lair faster to then defend or scout it
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On April 05 2011 05:25 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:09 BlasiuS wrote:
I agree with the OP, and based on the responses I'm seeing, there's a ton of posters in this thread who are not playing ZvX at even a moderately high level.
People post about it cause zerg players are seen as generally more prone to overexaggeration and "balance whine". It's been like that since release and i guess people want to give a different take on the situation. You can't just say that people who don't play zerg at high level should keep out and let the thread just fill up with "i agree" posts, no interesting discussion or solution will come of it.
No, that's not what he's talking about. There's a lot of posters who are saying things like "Split your larvae between drones and units", "Get overlord speed faster", "Get extra queens", "Get Spines and Spore Crawlers at both your bases" that clearly don't have an understanding of the problem or a possible solution.
Many people are explicitly saying things like "You can have overlord speed by the 6 minute mark", which even if it were true, is 20 seconds after you're already dying to 4gate, and it's far too late to prepare for anything that comes after that.
If you split your larvae between drones and units, you die to a 4gate. If you spend money on lair or even just an evo chamber, you die to a 4gate. People at lower levels and people who don't play zerg don't understand what a well-executed 4gate or marine/scv all-in requires to stop, and they're suggesting things that aren't even theorycraft, they're just bunk.
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On April 05 2011 05:25 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:09 BlasiuS wrote:
I agree with the OP, and based on the responses I'm seeing, there's a ton of posters in this thread who are not playing ZvX at even a moderately high level.
People post about it cause zerg players are seen as generally more prone to overexaggeration and "balance whine". It's been like that since release and i guess people want to give a different take on the situation. You can't just say that people who don't play zerg at high level should keep out and let the thread just fill up with "i agree" posts, no interesting discussion or solution will come of it.
I didn't say they should keep out, just don't post something that's incorrect. I'm all for discussing and trying to come up with a solution, but posts like these:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2011 16:23 TheLink wrote:
On a large map you can probably throw down an evo chamber and spore colonies before the void rays get to your base. Why can't you simply ring a few zerglings around his base to spot one leaving? Same goes for hunting proxy pylons. On April 04 2011 16:38 Virid wrote:
There are plenty of players who don't scout until very late.
Perhaps you're going about this the wrong way. On April 04 2011 19:52 Ethic wrote:
Get overlord speed, Lair tech is not hard to get to and if you're build orders are fleshed out you can get Overlord speed by 6-7 minute mark.
If you're too much of a cheap ass to get Overlord speed get a Overseer, but tbh, you're better off getting overlord speed. On April 04 2011 20:07 Protein wrote:
What kind of scouting does Protoss have that Z doesn't? Before T2 all we have is the option to research hallu, which finishes researching around the time t2 is achieved anyway (significantly reducing our ability to defend a push on our expo, esp if we're going 3 gate expo) and probe scouting.
Terrans scan is good but sacrifices a mule and then they can't scout until T2 as well... Having vie speed at t1 would be retiredly overpowered. Z would always know everything about the enemy on big maps too.
Seriously, what are we complaining about here? Seems to me you zerg players want to have the cake and eat it too...
Edit: Not to mention that a good z will keep their scout drone in the toss' base forever. Not being able to deny early scouting is a bitch. Meanwhile Toss is left blind for awhile thanks to lings/marines destroying probes so early on. On April 04 2011 21:05 Striding Strider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 16:10 Zerokaiser wrote:
Good luck getting an overlord in my base! Get overlord speed. On April 05 2011 00:37 Severedevil wrote:
This complaint happens a lot, and I'm still bewildered by it.
Can't you just Queen/Drone --> Spines @ 6:00 with a spore @ 7:00 (to block DT if your opponent hasn't already revealed his hand), and then flood with Speedlings or Roaches against pretty much any PvZ opening? Obviously as soon as Protoss expands you can tech up and cut back on unit production.
Against Terran it's more annoying since Cloaked Banshees force better detection coverage, but Terran has obvious tells for whether or not they're teching.
EDIT: On a lot of maps you can reliably gas steal your opponent, drastically reducing the realm of possible builds. On April 05 2011 05:23 00Visor wrote:
Zergs should use more changelings
are not even applicable and are basically just de-railing the thread.
The lack of available early-game zerg scouting is something that's an issue at high levels of play, I think it's reasonable to expect a high-level discussion about it.
The only useful posts I've seen are someone mentioned using a ling+drone drill to get the drone in the base, which is cool and something I haven't tried. However even then it doesn't do much beyond just keeping your initial scout drone alive. Another person mentioned upping the overlord's unupgraded base speed, so that sacrificing an overlord has a much better chance of actually scouting something useful.
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On April 05 2011 05:28 carbon_based wrote:
everyone please read my first post its at the top of page three and it answers everything addressed before and after it. furthermeore people have already detailed at length how to scout as zerg and if something happens between the 3 and 8 minute mark that wasn't revealed by your scout the plain story is that the build you just lost to wasn't optimal and you were outplayed by failing to be able to respond to it or micromanage. even at your blindest a zergling at the ramp will see the push out and composition and you will have well over the 44 game seconds required for a larvae cycle and if your existing army plus 12 extra larvae worth of units is unable to counter, you aren't playing safe or smart. complain all you want about nexus cancel 4 gates, air play, dark temps, what have you, it was either
A: revealed by your first scout you just need to learn the tells or
B: not optimal and you should have been prepared blind or your build/style isn't safe or smart. sorry bro.
the only legitimate posts i've read are about how the big maps cater to protoss 3 base play, something i've said repeatedly on these forums, and i'm preparing my opus about how the ridiculous strength of terran bio has spurred map expansion and tipped the scales hugely in protoss' favor, but that's for another day. the pure and simple is big maps are good for zerg early play because you CANNOT DENY that it allows you to drone harder and longer, the only tradeoff is that scouting is more difficult, seriously tho guys read my first post and quit complaining about falling behind due to bad scouting, occassionally you fall behind in starcraft games guys, and occasionally its your fault and not due to something like map design or game balance.
You suggested blindly building 2 spines and a spore crawler in every game. I assume most others disregarded the post as nonsense at that point, as I did. You also seem to be of the opinion that a zerg fast expanding is by definition a greedy econ opening. Unless one-base cheesing, zerg has to expand by 21 supply, not for economy per se, but for larva production. 14 gas / 14 pool into 20/21 hatchery, and 15 hatch are much of a muchness in this respect. 15 hatch is not an "aggressive econ opening". What defines that is how zerg chooses to use the larvae in the early game.
@ the OP: I think this is a problem all zergs are facing. One of my main concerns on first seeing the new ladder maps was actually the lack of viable positions for overlords, both for sacrificing and for monitoring attack paths. I do think we need to get cleverer with our deductions - JDub had a good checklist for ZvP on the first page. However, I do sympathize with the pain of not knowing whether a terran is building 2 reactored barracks, a reactored factory, or a command center behind the wall.
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On April 05 2011 03:09 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 21:23 Ichobicho wrote:
1. It's not hard to not show the Stalker / 1 Stalkers. It can still be a FE or Air(air is rare tho). But 1 stalkers hints at it yes.
2. saved up chrono for cyber is not the only way to do a 4 gate. And most don't do it that way cause it's obvious what they are doing. Why would they show you they are 4 gateing 3 minutes into the game?
3. Rarely does P go anything but Cyber after GW(if it's GW first). I'm sorry but saying Cyber after GW hints at 4gate just makes me doubt your whole post. Cyber after GW tells you it's not some Mass Zealot cheese.
4. I don't want to grab an extractor. I need the probe for extra eco (which is important even against a 4 gate). Stealing the gas can result in the Stalkers/zealot 4gate which is one of the worst 4 gates, it can also be 3gate forge expand, so you cant mass army.
5. there are plenty of 4gates which uses 2 gas.
I can spot a potential 4gate. The problem is that in many cases it can also be a potential FE. If I go mass Eco I loose to 4 gate, mass defense I loose to FE. If I go for something balanced, it can still be hard to hold the 4 gate. 1. It's impossible not to show either a stalker or a sentry, as your worker is faster than the zealot, and losing your worker before a ranged unit can kill it off simply means you sucked and should micro better. 2. Non-saved up chrono for a cyber means delayed 4 gate, the less time that passes, the weaker it gets, and the more your expansion and drone count kicks in. The whole purpose of the 4gate is to do it as fast as possible and abuse the massive army you're going to throw at an opponent who's underprepared. 3. Obviously. It's all part of the same build tho and not as binary as CY after GW = 4gate. One gas, saved up chronos, CY after GW, Stalker as second unit, chrono boosts on the CY and instant warp in research will indicate the 4gate enough that you should prepare for it. 4. Whatever. Grabbing an extractor is one way of doing it. If you don't want to do it, then don't. That also means you have to get your probe out before the stalker comes out which is lost scouting for you. That one probe mining for two minutes isn't going to be the difference of you holding a 4gate or not. 5. And they're all lower economy than your standard 4gate. You should never cross out a rush just because it's delayed, but it also means that if it comes, it's going to be weaker. And how can you not scout the FE? A 4gate will come at around 6 minutes in, have a ling at his natural and check for the expansion around 4-5 minutes. Anything else can't be called a FE.
1. Yes, but my point was that stalker second is not 100% 4gate, you cant mass army just cause you saw the stalker
2. . While the 4gate gets delayed. Most Zerg will also make more drones, less army when seeing this.
A delayed 4gate isn't necessary weaker, because the Zerg will be less prepared cause the zerg will not see enough signs to be sure of what is coming(the point of this tread).
I'll also disagree that the 4gate is "to do it as fast as possible and abuse the massive army you're going to throw at an opponent". It's more about it suddenly being at at the Zerg front door, with a great reinforcement rate. While the Zerg is unable to stabilize a army while holding his second.
At high level it's way more important to do the 4gate disguised, than doing it fastest possible.
3. Most P uses a chrono boost on the warp gate anyways (sentry FE f.ex.). Most P are to smart to save up chrono (if your scout can see it).
Everything your saying here can indicate both Air, Sentry expand, the 4gate Zealot>DT, 4gates, 2-3gate SG. Altough 4gate is the highest possiblity im not sure you are actually reading what I'm saying? A protoss(and Terran, but Terran isn't as hard cause they are a bit easier to read and feel) can come out with a lot of different builds, based on the same stuff being seen at the ramp. Even if you know both gas timings/a gas steal.
4. One extra set of Zerglings or a Spine Crawler can easily be the difference defending a 4gate, most 4 gates defends are really close in tipping both ways. This has a lot to do with the fact that you can never know for sure before it comes, so you need to stay right on the edge eco & army wise.
5. I don't cross it out, but you don't get how it works, so I'll explain: Around 5 minutes you need to worry about 4gate, the fastest one can hit around 5:25 I think. So at this point you need a decent army(before he moves out)
Ok, so we wont call it a FE. But Protoss often expand in the 5-7 minute area (sentry expand depending on how risky they are). I'd say for a P this is kinda a fast expand, but lets not call it that(that's not the point anyways).
lets say(Timings are examples, but should be somewhat correct):
example 1.
P moves at 6 minutes, your zergling at ramp sees this as its moving out and its clearly a 4gate coming. You put up 1-2 SC, Start pumping army 100%. It's still hard to defend. Micro/army comp decides winner.
example 2.
Nothing comes at 6 minutes, so you make 70% zerglings 30% drones(which should be very safe).
He moves 10 seconds later, you need to wait on larvae. You get a round of lings/roach while he is waiting for his pylon 8-10 P units rolls over the zerg. P most likely going to win.
example 3.
Nothing comes at 6 minutes, so you make 70% zerglings 30% drones(which should be very safe).
He moves 10 seconds later, having spent two chrono boost on the Core, to fake me out. The rest on probes. Puts down a nexus. And you already got yourself a big big disadvantage and your most likely going to loose, as the P quickly gets up a good eco while you sit there with your army who can do nothing. The Zerg rarely come out on top when this happens, even if the game last 35 min. A lot gets decided when the P has a better eco at 7 minutes, cause the zerg has to prepare for 4 gate untill the Z knows it's not coming.
6. If you see every sign of the 4gate, it can still be another build. Excluding the constant Chrono boost on Core. If you prepare for 4gate cause you see all the signs but the constant boosts, it backfires so hard every time it's not a 4gate.
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Good rule of thumb, if you don't see an expo between 25-30 food, it's time to cut drones, grab a lair, a bling nest if he's T, maybe make another queen, and start massing lings. This is of course assuming you couldn't sack an OL in time.
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I can relate to this, most of my losses have been in that scouting gap where I guess wrong. In the specific scenario of Typhoon what I do is sent my first overlord horizontally, my 9OL vertically and at around 12-13 drones I send a drone scout cross positions (checking for proxy pylons in the process).
By the time my drone ends up seeing what's in cross pos the overlords have gone 3/4 and 2/4 of the distance respectively so if the enemy does indeed end up being in CP I just redirect both of them and they can get to the enemy base around that crucial 6 minute mark when you need them sacc'ed.
This doesn't really solve the guessing problem however since it's so easy to hide tech/shoot down the OL with just a couple hundred mineral's worth of units that it's silly.
Now, to get things straight - here's why I consider this as legitimate QQ. I don't mind dying from an all-in like 7-pool, marine SCV, proxy gate, cannon rush. I can scout those, it's my mistake if I don't and I don't consider this imbalance just because we only have a single rush option (6pool against T/P) that isn't really that viable since the worker buff. As zerg, I trade my ability to cheese early on with the opportunity to dominate the late game, great harass, map control, the ability to easily switch tech etc.
However I do consider it imbalance when the game doesn't give me the option to react to my opponent, presenting me with a rock-paper-scissor guessing situation. Where's the strategy there and how do you differentiate player skill when even a bronze level player can easily deny the OL sac with 2 marines then banshee rush and kill a zerg that guessed wrong and prepared for BFH?
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How is this a Zerg only problem? Scouting before the 7 minute mark as protoss is just as annoying. We have to sacrifice a worker to not even see in the main base at all on most occasions. Once the zerg has lings out, or a terran has marines, we get no scouting until robo or hallucinate(which you won't have before 7 minutes anyway).
I'm not saying that you don't do this, but as I've gotten better, I've learned to read what I can see from sacrificing a worker. Yesterday for example, against a T, I saw him with no expansion and a bunker on the top of is ramp. It means he was teching. I made a cannon in my mineral line before the banshee's even got there. It isn't always going to work, but it is better than nothing.
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Yeah, but you are able to see if zerg is expanding or not with your first scout. And if he is expanding there is nothing special he can throw at P.
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On April 05 2011 22:49 Cataphract wrote:
How is this a Zerg only problem? Scouting before the 7 minute mark as protoss is just as annoying. We have to sacrifice a worker to not even see in the main base at all on most occasions. Once the zerg has lings out, or a terran has marines, we get no scouting until robo or hallucinate(which you won't have before 7 minutes anyway).
I'm not saying that you don't do this, but as I've gotten better, I've learned to read what I can see from sacrificing a worker. Yesterday for example, against a T, I saw him with no expansion and a bunker on the top of is ramp. It means he was teching. I made a cannon in my mineral line before the banshee's even got there. It isn't always going to work, but it is better than nothing.
Because you don't straight up die thanks to cushions like force fields and not needing to fast expand. The other difference is design; toss and terran can always make workers but zerg must choose; defending costs econ. If you get faked out on aggression, you fall way behind relative. Not to mention zerg has nothing like a 2 gate robo that is quite safe and versatile against a variety of threats; zerg needs extremely specific responses that don't overlap. Again, very unlike tossterran.
In your situation against a blind terran, you only really need to fear that banshee. Were you going to be afraid of a hellion rush? Probably not since that cannon can handle it as well and your units are better against them; you can handle both a hellion or banshee. Zerg needs different reponses for each.
Zerg basically just gets punished harder because they need specific responses. Don't know why people still miss this fact.
Wait right, cause they don't play zerg and haven't a clue what its like.
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I used to complain about lack of Zerg scouting early game, still do actually. It especially became problematic with the new larger maps. However, I've simply moved up my scouting drone 9 and use an extractor trick. Most of the time I get into the base and it gives me time to correct my scouting OL path for a later sacrifice. It's still tough/impossible to know exactly what an opponent is doing and it should be. Only Terran gets the all seeing eye of Sauron.
Generally, I rely on the gas or gas/chrono to give me a vague idea whether the opponent is teching or not. 2 gas, obviously it's going into something gas heavy what can that be? Took me a while to get into day9's thought process of what eliminating what it's not and getting out of the mindset he's going OMGWTFBBQ DT, Void, 4gate Blink Rush all at the same time. =) I suck, I'm bad, I make frequent decisions errors by reading the scouting information wrong. But I don't really feel like I'm flying blind anymore.
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I think if you were to balance change this, make it so that it is possible to put up reactive spines or spores if you see something. As of right now the spine itself takes longer than a creep+sunken in sc1. If you can catch units moving out and put up spine crawlers that finish right as the units hit, or requiring some delay tactics to do so, this will allow for a lot better games. IMO
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Canada13389 Posts
i am entirely serious with this post so no flames please. i never played bw on iccup and rately on bmet when i was much younger. the little of bw i did play provides me with the following question
how is the current issue of scouting different in sc2 than in bw? i know the timing attacks are different but larva mechanic and defending against scoutable all ins or pushes and the scouting mechanics of each race are barely different now than before afaik.
please enlighten. me in a pm or here if you played bw on iccup or online 1v1 with the same or more fervour as you play sc2 to help me understand.
note hallucination imo is not much different than investing the robo at the same time and getting obs.
thanks all 
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A lot of things were different in BW, but being able to make hydras without upgrading to lair was a big difference. Also consider the difference between banshees and wraiths, and void rays compared to scouts.
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I don't get why zergs have problems against protoss cheese. If you scout the front and see a sentry then you shouldn't fear DT's as it will take a lot longer to get out after that sentry. If you see a stalker expect a 4gate or air play. either of these should have you making spinecrawlers and possibly a 4th queen for transfuse (You should already have 3 queens out to get creep spread and deal with the rushed voidray).
Once you get to lair tech scouting becomes easy, one overseer with a few changelings will cover all your scouting needs. Failing that, get multiple overseers, then you never have to worry about scouting again.
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EPT
