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On March 16 2011 07:03 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all failed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise. Do you think its the same considering GSL players have to stay in Korea for at least a month once they qualify for top 64, while Koreans would only have to fly into NA for one week every three months or so? You're focusing on details. Plane trips, number of days, yada yada yada. Get to the underlying principle involved. What is the principle behind your anti-korean-into-NASL arguments? I'm guessing it would go something like this: - Koreans have teams that play 12 hours a day. - Western players have studies/work and can only put in maximum 4-6 hours a day. - This is unfair competition. And: - NASL is a tournament tightly connected with teamliquid and the non-korean scene. - The players should be tightly connected with teamliquid and the non-korean scene. - Western players are, koreans are not. Correct/Wrong?
Mostly yes.
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On March 16 2011 06:51 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all failed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise. Do you think its the same considering GSL players have to stay in Korea for at least a month once they qualify for top 64, while Koreans would only have to fly into NA for one week every three months or so?
The thing not even live, its not like its necessary, why arent you bitching about the europeans?
We all know the answer.
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On March 16 2011 06:58 Pudge_172 wrote:
If there are any Koreans invited, I would like to see guys who have a really good reputation but haven't been able to crack Code A. Bomber, Seed, HyeJun, are 3 guys who would be nice to see. Also, it would make sense for Korean teams to get their "B-teamers" some experience this way.
I mentioned this in the other thread. DRG and yonghwa are two others who haven't made code A but are good players. DRG's stream was some of the best zerg I've ever seen plus he was interacting with the fans on the chat 
I think these players would be the most keen to play. But I imagine if they do invite Koreans it will be the big names.
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On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea.
This doesn't make any sense. Are you gonna say the same for Europeans?
Btw it's pretty obvious why Pokebunny has a hidden reason for asking this, i'll see if you can work it out.
On March 16 2011 07:05 ReachTheSky wrote:
There is a reason for this. Its because all the matches are being BROADCAST ON TV! its situational dude
Despite being called GomTV it's not broadcast on TV.
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On March 16 2011 07:05 0neder wrote:
Pokebunny, don't you understand that the only way to achieve parity and really make e-sports a global thing will be to have more frequent competitions between Koreans and non-Koreans?
I don't think or expect it will happen in SC2. I personally think it's already too far gone.
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agree'd with the qualifier
have a qualifier only available to the top teams in korea (ones that participate in GSTL and maybe a few other ones), and have like top 8 or w/e in that tournament be invited to the NASL..
no koreans in the NASL will make it like the wnba where gsl is the nba lol
allowing koreans in the NASL, is the first step to close the "gap" of foreign skill level to korean skill level.
EDIT: @ ParasitJonte there are plenty foreigner's that play just as much as the koreans... and most korean's do not train as hard in sc2 as they do in bw, so ur assumption about how much they train is incorrect.
with NASL, and other tournaments the term "progamer" actually exists outside of korea.. therefore if you're not willing to put in the work to compete in something like the NASL, you probably don't deserve to be in it.
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On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea.
a plane ticket, time, and dedication?
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Leaving Koreans out of the tournament would be terrible for the growth of e-sports which is supposed global. If Koreans are really the best, leaving them out would leave a league that wouldn't feel like the best, and NASL as an organization should probably aspire to be the best. Having the tip top players available makes real competition entertaining and interesting; being comfortable with mediocre is a step back!
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I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.
Get your priorities straight.
Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.
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If the NASL is truly trying to become one of the best leagues, equal to the GSL in skill, games, and players, then limiting the certain amount of koreans would just about crush all of those from becoming part of the NASL.
This attitude is like saying in the U.S. open only united states tennis players can play because we want to see one on the home court win.
Honestly to me, any attitude that koreans should be limited is based upon cowardice.
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On March 16 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea. This doesn't make any sense. Are you gonna say the same for Europeans? Btw it's pretty obvious why Pokebunny has a hidden reason for asking this, i'll see if you can work it out.
I've stated a million times this has nothing to do with my interests as a player, purely as a spectator. I don't expect to get in either way.
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On March 16 2011 06:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:51 Backpack wrote:On March 16 2011 06:47 red4ce wrote:
Given the huge prize pool in NASL, the skill level of the competitors should be nothing but the best. Invite MVP, MC, Nestea, Nada, and Julyzerg. Agreed. If we say disallow top level players than what is the point of having a "Starleague" in the first place? SC2 doesn't have the big gap between Koreans and Foreigners but not letting them play in the NASL would just create a gap. We've already seen 3 "white dudes" make it into Code S, so now the rest of them will just have to step up their game to compete in the NASL. Then why hold it in North America? There is no dispute (well, between anybody who knows anything) that the best players are in Korea. If they wanted to just hold a tournament with only the best players they would hold it for the Koreans and then have possible sparing invites to foreigners. The NASL might state their goals as being interested in the best tournament with the best players, but there is obviously more to it than that (thankfully).
Umm..
Ever heard of the GSL?
NASL is just another tournament. It won't replace GSL or MLG or IEM or anything. Its not going to be the one and only tournament. It's just another step in making esports more reasonable in the west. Koreans shine because they have more incentive to go pro than foreigners, NASL should help change that.
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Invite all the best koreas, I doubt they would dominate.
If any of you guys actually remember the incontrol interviews, he mentioned that while koreans and europeans are invited to the tournament, the online and offline portion of the tournament is held in america and american servers.
That means any korean or european trying to play in the NASL is handicapped with latency. That seems fair to me.
also, it would be downright embarassing of the NASL to set a cap for koreans in anyway considering how open the GSL has been with foreigners.
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Give the koreans 10 spots for the most famous / achieved players. Talking about excluding all the korean players and calling them money hungry is just plain retarded and borderline racist.
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To be honest. When NASL was unveiled I thought it was going to be a 100% North American tournament. Which would've been fine.
But since it is an international tournament, there really shouldn't be much discussion. It's a direct competitor to GSL; why would players be discriminated based on origin?
Bottom line, if you want a non-korean tournament and if you think this is the best for the non-korean esports scene, then make it happen. But beware, openess and globalization are pretty 2000ish things .
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On March 16 2011 06:54 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all failed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise. Jinro you where lucky to be on possibly the best sponsored foreign team able to practice in the best environment. In NA scene especially, the best team for a while ROOT couldn't even get a single sponsor or funding and largely payed their way themselves to MLG etc. You can't compare the Korean scene to NA scene. IF they simply let koreans rape everyone what will it do to actually advance the NA scene or help any of those teams. If their goal is the growth of foreign teams, how does having a finals full of koreans help them in any way? GSL exists, TSL3 exists, etc. Overall it makes sense. Protectionism makes sense in this case because it's not in any way a level playing field in terms of financial / cultural support for "pro gaming". NASL should be protective of foreign players / english speakers. It doesn't aim to be a "GSL", it aims to be a north American pro gaming league. TSL 1-2 did the same things. Compare NA scene to Korean scene right now in SC2. Compare NA scene to Korean scene in broodwar. I think there is still a big gap in both of those situations so I can definitely see siding with NASL's goals of promoting western esports. and not just letting a much more developed scene crush them because they have to coach/promote 8 hours a day to make money.
On March 16 2011 06:54 dacthehork wrote:If their goal is the growth of foreign teams, how does having a finals full of koreans help them in any way?
Weird, I always thought that u.s. citizens were all over the idea of the free market and survival of the fittest inside of it?
Anyways, some of the sponsors of sc2 over in korea, are actually multinational companies. And seeing how all those skill-wise tournaments find Sponsors I think there are willing companies to invest into esports as part of their marketing.
Hence, if some team gets together, practise their asses off and prove that they have a legit chance of being the foreign team that can tackle the koreans, I bet some company will start noticing them sooner or later.
Didn't the first sc2 teams in Korea only arose from the manager taking a loan and the players "work" without salaries for the sake of their sport? This is what I call dedication and by now, I bet most of them have been awarded for that by finding those sponsors you speak of.
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On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.
Get your priorities straight.
Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.
Again, I don't think I'm worthy of a spot nor do I expect it. My opinion here is given purely as a spectator.
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It wouldn't promote the NA scene very well if the only winners were people who can barely speak english.
Maybe I'm wrong and it'll just motivate the NA players to train harder.
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Latency for Korean players on the NA server is a significant factor that will limit their skill to a degree.
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On March 16 2011 07:08 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.
Get your priorities straight.
Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT. Again, I don't think I'm worthy of a spot nor do I expect it. My opinion here is given purely as a spectator.
you must not watch the GSL then if you think that limiting korean input is gonna make for better games
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EPT
