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NASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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OmniscientSC2
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States713 Posts
March 15 2011 22:09 GMT
#101
Invite the top Koreans (MC, July, MVP, Nestea), crowd/fan favorites (Idra, Artosis, Catz, Destiny, etc), and let the rest qualify. If I want to watch a SC2 league with the best games/players, I'll watch GSL. If I want to be entertained through interviews, unique gameplay, and be able to cheer on my favorite players, I'd rather watch NASL (and even pay for it). If you want to give new blood a chance to participate in the game, I'd be pretty cool to host regional offline qualifiers.
"Did you know about Day and the Wicker Basket?" - Harem "Hi, I'm from Texas." -TLO
thesauceishot
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada333 Posts
March 15 2011 22:09 GMT
#102
Invite some of them. While it would feel a bit uneasy to be discriminating them because they're basically too good, we want the NASL to develop the western e-sports scene. Casual and hardcore fans alike need marquis players from their area that they can cheer for.
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
March 15 2011 22:09 GMT
#103
On March 16 2011 07:09 adeezy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:08 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.

Get your priorities straight.

Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.

Again, I don't think I'm worthy of a spot nor do I expect it. My opinion here is given purely as a spectator.


you must not watch the GSL then if you think that limiting korean input is gonna make for better games

I don't watch the GSL cuz I got bored after watching a few games. I much prefer mlg/iem.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:11:53
March 15 2011 22:09 GMT
#104
On March 16 2011 07:05 Dalavita wrote:
If NA/EU want to be as good as koreans, they need to play the koreans, and play LIKE the koreans.

Not inviting koreans to NASL is just limiting the experience you bring in and gain from the tournament, and makes no sense.


not really

The main difference is financial incentive. Put out big tournaments with big money and you will get people working hard for that shit. Slot it full of koreans who already have GSL, TSL3, and even MLG they can attend doesn't make sense. If you payed attention to NASL talk they even mention how this is a tournament for non koreans and they dont want a ton of korean players because they have plenty of opportunities and it will help NA/EU grow
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:10:40
March 15 2011 22:09 GMT
#105
I didn't voted, because I don't know what to think, I'm not convinced either way.
Comparing with GSL and foreigners who went to Korea is irrelevant imo : foreigners basically move away from their country to live to the other side of the world. Korean playing in NASL just mean that, 2 or 3 times a week, they'll have to wake up early and play from their home, and going to NA only if they are sure of a big paycheck.
No comparison is possible here, foreigners are making a life changing move while koreans just have to record a youtube video.

In fact, this problem is this : if koreans are allowed, they'll likely win it all and bring back the funds to Korea. If they are not allowed, the level of play will be lower, but the money will go to the foreigner scene, helping create team houses, and in long term will allow foreigners to compete with koreans in term of skill, because foreigners will have access to the same infrastructure as koreans.

Simple as that, and I still don't know what option I want...
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
March 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#106
If NASL is going to exclude Koreans at all, they should change their objective to "We want the best players, but only if they're not Korean".

It's absolutely ridiculous to exclude a group of people (which is, in fact, a horrible generalization) because you want to "support community relationships" (at least if you're an advocate of hosting a tournament for only the best). If you want to host a tournament with only people who "contribute" (read: people who actively post on TL/stream/etc.), then go ahead; just don't take the name North American Star League.
dookudooku
Profile Joined December 2010
255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:18:50
March 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#107
On March 16 2011 07:03 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 06:56 billyX333 wrote:
I'm not sure if I understand the anti-korean competition argument. I guess people are saying it would be boring to see the tournament dominated by non english speaking personalities? I personally think theres a certain degree of mystique surrounding the korean players when they compete in a foreign competition and I think the value of an NASL title would be greatly diminished if they excluded the best players in the world.

Imagine if a foreigner took down the NASL title by going through MVP and nestea... instant and permanent e-fame. legendary status for the rest of his life. While on the other hand if koreans were intentionally excluded, an NASL title would have as much value as morrow's IEM victory last year or huk's MLG win (before idra and jinro were even in it) Both wins were great but far from legendary

I guess there are two types of spectators in sc2 currently, those who prefer MLG/IEM and those who prefer GSL. I greatly prefer GSL myself


The argument has 2 main components.

1: Familiarity. Many of the people who will be competing in the NASL are people who legitimately interact with THIS community. They do interviews, stream, post on these very forums, etc... many of them have a fan base for their personality, not just their gaming abilities. Because of that, adding in the Koreans, who are very, very different in that regard, don't mesh as well.

2: People want to see the NASL and MLG (or any other tournaments) be able to succeed. To have long term success, the player skill has to grow higher than it is now, closer (or at) the GSL level. In order to facilitate that, allowing few or no Koreans increases the likelihood of a foreigner winning more prize money. This encourages the player to be able to play SC2 professionally, and not just as a hobby. When this happens, ideally more and more people can then get team houses and legitimately compete at the top level of the GSL players when they are allowed to dedicate themselves to the game. Then, after this has happened, then restrictions wont even be needed.

Somebody earlier mentioned protectionism as an example from economics and I think it's a fairly solid example of what their goals are.


While I think having too many Koreans would be bad for the league, I do think Koreans will be able to mesh well with the other players and fans of the league. At the end of the day, we all have the same common interest, which is playing sc2, and that can easily transcend language and cultural barriers.

Japanese players have been coming over to play SF tournaments (which generally has far smaller prizes than SC2), and that has contributed greatly to the SF scene. It's raised the level of competition and now both sides of the Pacific show much greater interest in each other. Also, these Japanese players are only in the States for a FEW WEEKENDS each year.

How is all of this possible? It's because there are extremely dedicated and caring individuals who truly reach out to the community on the other side of the Pacific. And these people usually are not great players themselves, but they know how to represent and assist good players in establishing connections with players in other countries.
adeezy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1428 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:12:58
March 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#108
On March 16 2011 07:09 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:09 adeezy wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:08 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.

Get your priorities straight.

Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.

Again, I don't think I'm worthy of a spot nor do I expect it. My opinion here is given purely as a spectator.


you must not watch the GSL then if you think that limiting korean input is gonna make for better games

I don't watch the GSL cuz I got bored after watching a few games. I much prefer mlg/iem.


I'm sorry then that just means your opinion in the OP is just kind of null. It means you have no evidence to saying why its going to be more boring. I'm just going to attribute your opinion to nationalistic bias. Whats the point of saying games will be boring if you don't even watch the games yourself, it's making an opinion about things you don't even see for yourself.

If you check out the GSL and click reccomended games, youll see a TON of 90%+ yes games, however if you checked out MLG or IEM, there was definitely a ton more lackluster games.
I asked my friend how the ratio at a party was, he replied. "Let's just say for every guy there was two dudes."
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
March 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#109
On March 16 2011 07:07 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea.


This doesn't make any sense. Are you gonna say the same for Europeans?

Btw it's pretty obvious why Pokebunny has a hidden reason for asking this, i'll see if you can work it out.

I've stated a million times this has nothing to do with my interests as a player, purely as a spectator. I don't expect to get in either way.

You want to see worse players play as a spectator? Why? What makes foreigners more entertaining to watch?

I can have an emotional investment in a Korean player even if I don't know a damn thing about them, just because I like their play and seeing them win so much. In fact I haven't felt the need to care about any foreign player nearly as much because their play is less inspiring.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:12:06
March 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#110
My suggestion: + Show Spoiler +
the poll said to post others in thread


The NASL should predetermine a number of spots available for Korean players, and host some sort of qualifiers. Not only would that ensure the players that come are of a high level, but it would help gauge the interest from the Korean pros.

If NesTea, MC, etc were applying, the NASL could decide to allow for a Korean house, much as GOM did for foreigners. Or, they could decide to cap the possible skill level of Korean invites (no code-s players allowed for example).

In my opinion, it would be prudent for the NASL to get a good judge of the interest from the highest level Korean players. In order to do so, applications for koreans should exist just as they do for everyone else- and if there is a demand, an offline play-in tournament doesn't seem overly difficult to accomplish.
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
Cyberus
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany148 Posts
March 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#111
I personally only watch GSL when foreign players play except for finals or really really good matchups. I just think it's not that interessting to see two korean who I dont know alot about.
The western players are so accessible through interviews, facebook, streams etc. In addition to good play that's how you build a fanbase.
wordd
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia190 Posts
March 15 2011 22:11 GMT
#112
let Koreans apply.
YA
Zorkey
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands167 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#113
A == Amount of regions

B == 50/A

I want B amount of Koreans (and that would be the best ones, since NA/EU/SEA and stuff are getting the best players in to). that would be an easy way todo this, while i agree i enjoy watching foreigners a bit more. i mean for some reason its easyer to become a "fan" of them. excluding koreans while shouting you want esports to grow globally seems a bit uhh... whats it called, hypocrittycal?

And seeing foreigners beat great korean players is awesome.
SmoKim
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark10305 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#114
Koreans in NASL are gonna be amazing

Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL


but NOT like this in any way
"LOL I have 202 supply right now (3 minutes later)..."LOL NOW I HAVE 220 SUPPLY SUP?!?!?" - Mondragon
ParasitJonte
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden1768 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:13:00
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#115
On March 16 2011 07:08 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 06:54 dacthehork wrote:
On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Its retarded.

Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for?

For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL.

Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM.

While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all failed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise.


Jinro you where lucky to be on possibly the best sponsored foreign team able to practice in the best environment.

In NA scene especially, the best team for a while ROOT couldn't even get a single sponsor or funding and largely payed their way themselves to MLG etc.

You can't compare the Korean scene to NA scene. IF they simply let koreans rape everyone what will it do to actually advance the NA scene or help any of those teams. If their goal is the growth of foreign teams, how does having a finals full of koreans help them in any way?

GSL exists, TSL3 exists, etc. Overall it makes sense. Protectionism makes sense in this case because it's not in any way a level playing field in terms of financial / cultural support for "pro gaming". NASL should be protective of foreign players / english speakers. It doesn't aim to be a "GSL", it aims to be a north American pro gaming league. TSL 1-2 did the same things.

Compare NA scene to Korean scene right now in SC2.
Compare NA scene to Korean scene in broodwar.

I think there is still a big gap in both of those situations so I can definitely see siding with NASL's goals of promoting western esports. and not just letting a much more developed scene crush them because they have to coach/promote 8 hours a day to make money.



Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 06:54 dacthehork wrote:If their goal is the growth of foreign teams, how does having a finals full of koreans help them in any way?


Weird, I always thought that u.s. citizens were all over the idea of the free market and survival of the fittest inside of it?

Anyways, some of the sponsors of sc2 over in korea, are actually multinational companies. And seeing how all those skill-wise tournaments find Sponsors I think there are willing companies to invest into esports as part of their marketing.
Hence, if some team gets together, practise their asses off and prove that they have a legit chance of being the foreign team that can tackle the koreans, I bet some company will start noticing them sooner or later.

Didn't the first sc2 teams in Korea only arose from the manager taking a loan and the players "work" without salaries for the sake of their sport? This is what I call dedication and by now, I bet most of them have been awarded for that by finding those sponsors you speak of.


Please don't use "survival of the fittest" in the same sentence...

Still, you're point is very valid. The one thing that will increase skill outside korea is competition from korea. This has been validated empiricially in economics. No reason why the same laws don't apply here.

Protectionism from korean competition will stagnate skill outside korea. It will be like in brood war where the very best players could go inactive for months and then just come back a couple of weeks before WCG and win it. Of course they would then die miserably at WCG when they faced koreans...
Hello=)
Rokk
Profile Joined March 2010
United States425 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#116
On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.

Get your priorities straight.

Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.

Eh... one of the big draws for competitive sports is the drama, personalities, and especially the rivalries. I think the nasl is spot on in that regard. There's just no reason you can't build the same thing with a few Koreans that you can with all Americans.
spancho
Profile Joined September 2009
United States161 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#117
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 16 2011 06:50 spancho wrote:
Considering that the GSL makes foreigners fly to Korea to compete (even though its the "Global" Star League), seams fair for the NASL to force anyone who wants to compete to fly to NA and have to go through rounds of elimination. HayprO, even though he was a top foreigner still didnt make it into the first couple of GSL rounds he tried for. Makes sense then that oGsMC should have to get cheesed out of a couple of prelims for the NASL.


What are you talking about? The NASL doesn't have prelims for the 50 invited players, and the majority of the tournament (besides the 16man finals) takes place online. All GSL matches are played at a live LAN, so any competitors must be in Korea to play. The situations are not comparable.


My point is that there should be an even opportunity cost for all players in both tournaments. Huk and his ilk were forced to fly over seas for what is supposed to be a "global" tourny. There is no foreign cap in the GSL, and no foreign invites. Inorder to play you have to pay (or get someone to pay for you) to get to the prelims while sacrificing playing in non-Korean tournies. If Koreans want to play in the NASL they should have to at least go through the same trials that a foreigner who wants to play in the GSL has to go through.
"Your face can't hurt 'cuz you're ugly." -Tasteless
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#118
On March 16 2011 07:11 adeezy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:09 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:09 adeezy wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:08 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.

Get your priorities straight.

Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.

Again, I don't think I'm worthy of a spot nor do I expect it. My opinion here is given purely as a spectator.


you must not watch the GSL then if you think that limiting korean input is gonna make for better games

I don't watch the GSL cuz I got bored after watching a few games. I much prefer mlg/iem.


I'm sorry then that just means your opinion in the OP is just kind of null. It means you have no evidence to saying why its going to be more boring. I'm just going to attribute your opinion to nationalistic bias. If you check out the GSL and click reccomended games, youll see a TON of 90%+ yes games, however if you checked out MLG or IEM, there was definitely a ton more lackluster games.

Null? My opinion is based entirely off what I'd rather watch. Take it however you'd like, if you don't care, then whatever.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#119
On March 16 2011 07:09 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:09 adeezy wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:08 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.

Get your priorities straight.

Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.

Again, I don't think I'm worthy of a spot nor do I expect it. My opinion here is given purely as a spectator.


you must not watch the GSL then if you think that limiting korean input is gonna make for better games

I don't watch the GSL cuz I got bored after watching a few games. I much prefer mlg/iem.


You should change your attitude, guess who comes out with the top strategies... Koreans.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
nvs.
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada3609 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#120
We knew we had to go big or go home. We needed an epic prize pool. We needed the best players. Most importantly, we needed the passion and excitement that comes from competition at the highest level; from watching two masters battle it out knowing that only one will win.


Given this statement it would be highly hypocritical if only "Code A and below players" were invited. It would go directly against the stated mission of the league itself.
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