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NASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Z-R0E
Profile Joined April 2009
United States147 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#121
If this were another league, I'd say "best of the best, regardless of nationality/etc". We have that tournament already though, it's the TSL. If we're going for the top 50 players in the world, regardless of any other attributes, it'd pretty much be TSL3 with more people.

That's definitely not to say I'm opposed to having any Korean players in the NASL, just like they're not opposed to having foreigners in the GSL. I think I would just rather have GSL & NASL feel like very different tournaments. That's what it comes down to for me; I'd rather see GSL & NASL have different rosters than have the absolute best of the best.
The Z-g0d http://atZinc.org
zeru
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
8156 Posts
March 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#122
--- Nuked ---
DiaBoLuS
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany1638 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:13:41
March 15 2011 22:13 GMT
#123
inviting no koreans would make the nasl meaningless. it would pretty much say "we are the best foreigners, but we still cannot compete with koreans"

but letting all koreans participate would be too much imo. GSL-LA? no, we dont need that.

i think the best thing would be to make it
15 EU / 10 NA / 10 KR+Foreign / 20 ppl chosen by international Qualifications on NA servers.
or sth in this direction
European Ranking: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=182293
Noxie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2227 Posts
March 15 2011 22:13 GMT
#124
GSL doesn't discriminate foreigners, NASL shouldn't discriminate against Koreans. This in turn will create a better league.
TemplarCo.
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Mexico2870 Posts
March 15 2011 22:13 GMT
#125
I think that NASL should invite some koreans but not the tip top players aka BoxeR, MC, NaDa, etc., maybe the top 8 Code A finishers.
Because if you see at tournaments like IEM, koreans have a lot of extra training than players from EU, Sjow, Socke, WhiteRa
So just a few koreans in there would be nice.
IMO
With an average game length of 7m36s over his 6 games in GSL3, this is a no-brainer. BitByBit pulls more SCVs than yo momma at a club on Mar Sara. ♞
DiaBoLuS
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany1638 Posts
March 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#126
On March 16 2011 07:13 TemplarCo. wrote:
I think that NASL should invite some koreans but not the tip top players aka BoxeR, MC, NaDa, etc., maybe the top 8 Code A finishers.
Because if you see at tournaments like IEM, koreans have a lot of extra training than players from EU, Sjow, Socke, WhiteRa
So just a few koreans in there would be nice.
IMO


IdrA, code S forever, also failed to the non-codeA-koreans. you cant judge from one groupstage rly.
European Ranking: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=182293
Tyree
Profile Joined November 2010
1508 Posts
March 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#127
If their goal is the growth of foreign teams, how does having a finals full of koreans help them in any way?


Your way of "growing" foreign teams is by sheltering them away from koreans? That does the oppossite effect, it outright nulifies the entire tournament if you arent inviting the very best.

Imagine the pure shitstorm had GOM said "we can only have X foreigners in GSL Code S and A", you people would riot.

Americans can be pretty patroitic people, but even i believe they rather have oGsMC face Nestea in a final, than watching some american guys who got there because they were protected the entire way.
★ Top Gun ★
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 22:15:43
March 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#128
On March 16 2011 06:59 Bagi wrote:
Voted for 5 very best koreans, I think 5-10 Koreans sounds about right.

Obviously having a league with 50% Koreans just because you wanted "the best players" is not a good idea either.


Why not? Since when are sports no longer about competition or being the best? Since when has there been any sport that said "we're going to limit the number of <insert nationality here> because they're too good". Since when did any sport claim their tournament to be a Starleague whilst excluding the best players?

The notion that Koreans shouldn't be invited because they're better is fucking pathetic. Seriously, they're not better because they're somehow genetically superior in gaming, they're better because they train harder than anyone else. If you exclude Koreans from the NASL you're basically telling the winner he's the best amongst the noobs, congrats.

The argument that the only way to become as good as the Koreans is to avoid comepting against them ... is just incredibly funny, in a sad way. The same separation existed in BW, everyone knows how that panned out.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Rokk
Profile Joined March 2010
United States425 Posts
March 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#129
On March 16 2011 07:09 OmniscientSC2 wrote:
Invite the top Koreans (MC, July, MVP, Nestea), crowd/fan favorites (Idra, Artosis, Catz, Destiny, etc), and let the rest qualify. If I want to watch a SC2 league with the best games/players, I'll watch GSL. If I want to be entertained through interviews, unique gameplay, and be able to cheer on my favorite players, I'd rather watch NASL (and even pay for it). If you want to give new blood a chance to participate in the game, I'd be pretty cool to host regional offline qualifiers.

Qualify how? There are no qualifiers for the first tournament. It's entirely invitational. Saying you can't have unique gameplay or favorite players among the Korean playerbase is disingenuous.
adeezy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1428 Posts
March 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#130
On March 16 2011 07:12 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:11 adeezy wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:09 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:09 adeezy wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:08 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:07 Butcherski wrote:
I dont care about drama, personalities and "rivalries'. Things like that should take a back seat when it comes to competitive "sports". I want to see the best game. Just the very idea that western competitive scene should be built without the best players is making my head hurt.

Get your priorities straight.

Especially people LIKE pokebunny who knows that he cant compete on the highest level. START PRACTICIING AND NOT BEGGING FOR YOUR SPOT.

Again, I don't think I'm worthy of a spot nor do I expect it. My opinion here is given purely as a spectator.


you must not watch the GSL then if you think that limiting korean input is gonna make for better games

I don't watch the GSL cuz I got bored after watching a few games. I much prefer mlg/iem.


I'm sorry then that just means your opinion in the OP is just kind of null. It means you have no evidence to saying why its going to be more boring. I'm just going to attribute your opinion to nationalistic bias. If you check out the GSL and click reccomended games, youll see a TON of 90%+ yes games, however if you checked out MLG or IEM, there was definitely a ton more lackluster games.

Null? My opinion is based entirely off what I'd rather watch. Take it however you'd like, if you don't care, then whatever.


Rather watch is thus based on subjective evidence rather than actual content. If you slapped korean level games such as July mutalisk harass but you had IdrA playing it? You'd be all over it even more? That's not fair to the scene or the players in it. Personally as a spectator I'm color blind. I don't care who is playing as long as I am watching interesting games, it just happens that 90% of those are korean pro amtches.
I asked my friend how the ratio at a party was, he replied. "Let's just say for every guy there was two dudes."
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
March 15 2011 22:14 GMT
#131
At this point I'm just mostly interested in seeing the player list and start of the league
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Augury
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States758 Posts
March 15 2011 22:15 GMT
#132
There's a time and a place for amateur leagues and NASL shouldn't be that place. I want to watch the best of the best compete.
absalom86
Profile Joined April 2010
Iceland1770 Posts
March 15 2011 22:15 GMT
#133
On March 16 2011 07:00 Naniwa wrote:
let them come, no point if not the absolute best is there ))


qft
Thief @ #teamliquid @ Quakenet
Juxx
Profile Joined April 2010
325 Posts
March 15 2011 22:15 GMT
#134
Alright heres what we should do. The winner of the NASL plays the GSL winner in a best of 9 showmatch. I think that would be the most entertaining and would draw views from both korea and the foreigner scene
Grubby Fighting!
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
March 15 2011 22:15 GMT
#135
On March 16 2011 07:07 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea.


This doesn't make any sense. Are you gonna say the same for Europeans?

Btw it's pretty obvious why Pokebunny has a hidden reason for asking this, i'll see if you can work it out.

I've stated a million times this has nothing to do with my interests as a player, purely as a spectator. I don't expect to get in either way.


There's foreigner only tournaments running all the time you can watch. If there's going to be a 100k prize per month you want the best simple as that; The top EU/NA players are on salary anyway so they can afford to practice just as much as Koreans. If they still lose? Then they were not good enough.
Scrandom
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2819 Posts
March 15 2011 22:15 GMT
#136
If NASL wants to be a legitimate contender for best starcraft 2 tourney in the world, they have to invite Koreans. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
March 15 2011 22:16 GMT
#137
On March 16 2011 07:15 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:07 Pokebunny wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea.


This doesn't make any sense. Are you gonna say the same for Europeans?

Btw it's pretty obvious why Pokebunny has a hidden reason for asking this, i'll see if you can work it out.

I've stated a million times this has nothing to do with my interests as a player, purely as a spectator. I don't expect to get in either way.


There's foreigner only tournaments running all the time you can watch. If there's going to be a 100k prize per month you want the best simple as that; The top EU/NA players are on salary anyway so they can afford to practice just as much as Koreans. If they still lose? Then they were not good enough.

I want to see more people, not just the top 16 in the world being able to make anything close to an average living.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
HowSoOnIsNow
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada480 Posts
March 15 2011 22:16 GMT
#138
On March 16 2011 07:00 Naniwa wrote:
let them come, no point if not the absolute best is there ))


You know what dude, i never liked you, but with that comment alone, you gained my respect.
Balls of steel. Thats a perfect example of a guy who takes the whole Esports thing seriously. He wants to be matched versus the best.

Real mens play Zerg.. Startale fighting.
billyX333
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1360 Posts
March 15 2011 22:16 GMT
#139
On March 16 2011 07:03 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 06:56 billyX333 wrote:
I'm not sure if I understand the anti-korean competition argument. I guess people are saying it would be boring to see the tournament dominated by non english speaking personalities? I personally think theres a certain degree of mystique surrounding the korean players when they compete in a foreign competition and I think the value of an NASL title would be greatly diminished if they excluded the best players in the world.

Imagine if a foreigner took down the NASL title by going through MVP and nestea... instant and permanent e-fame. legendary status for the rest of his life. While on the other hand if koreans were intentionally excluded, an NASL title would have as much value as morrow's IEM victory last year or huk's MLG win (before idra and jinro were even in it) Both wins were great but far from legendary

I guess there are two types of spectators in sc2 currently, those who prefer MLG/IEM and those who prefer GSL. I greatly prefer GSL myself


The argument has 2 main components.

1: Familiarity. Many of the people who will be competing in the NASL are people who legitimately interact with THIS community. They do interviews, stream, post on these very forums, etc... many of them have a fan base for their personality, not just their gaming abilities. Because of that, adding in the Koreans, who are very, very different in that regard, don't mesh as well.

2: People want to see the NASL and MLG (or any other tournaments) be able to succeed. To have long term success, the player skill has to grow higher than it is now, closer (or at) the GSL level. In order to facilitate that, allowing few or no Koreans increases the likelihood of a foreigner winning more prize money. This encourages the player to be able to play SC2 professionally, and not just as a hobby. When this happens, ideally more and more people can then get team houses and legitimately compete at the top level of the GSL players when they are allowed to dedicate themselves to the game. Then, after this has happened, then restrictions wont even be needed.

Somebody earlier mentioned protectionism as an example from economics and I think it's a fairly solid example of what their goals are.

1) I completely dont understand this. WhiteRa doesn't interact much with the english speaking community because of the language barrier but I'd much rather see him play in NASL than some random featured streamer like destiny or orb.

2) This argument hurts my brain. Somebody shouldn't be dependent on the NASL for income. the NASL would be like the world series of poker main event, it would be get rich fast money but it wouldn't be a reliable/constant source of income.
Sain
Profile Joined November 2010
Lebanon25 Posts
March 15 2011 22:17 GMT
#140
On March 16 2011 07:07 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:
On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea.


This doesn't make any sense. Are you gonna say the same for Europeans?

Btw it's pretty obvious why Pokebunny has a hidden reason for asking this, i'll see if you can work it out.

I've stated a million times this has nothing to do with my interests as a player, purely as a spectator. I don't expect to get in either way.


As a spectator why would you want anything less than the best? You don't want to see how players do against Koreans? Even if Koreans come in and start dominating that is the only way to see the skill gap between the players, there is no other way for players to close that gap without playing vs the best, but we don't know if that will even happen. If Koreans actually want to play in the league than the more the merrier as it would expose us to more information on play styles and broaden everyones view of SC2 which would in turn make everyone better.

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