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On March 16 2011 07:20 0neder wrote:
I'm sorry, but there will be MORE drama, the more Koreans are involved, than drama just because two anglophones are playing. More 'see how this foreigner compares against a Korean player' matches. Way more drama.
yeah, but making it "skill only decides" will be lots of koreans, but not more drama, since there will be like 15 foreigners?
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So, you want to leave a specific group of people out of a tournament, that is otherwise filled with people from all over the world, because... they're better and will probably rape the shit out of the tournament? And that while you feel it's fine to wander into their country and compete in their tournament?
Fair is foul, and foul is fair.
Of course there's a difference between an invitational and an open tournament, but I don't think it would be fair (as the game is now) to leave out Koreans who actually wonna participate.
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How can we say its a competition when you ban the best from competing in it.
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On March 16 2011 07:16 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:15 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 16 2011 07:07 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 16 2011 07:02 LagT_T wrote:
Invite none. If they want to play, make them pay for everything foreigners had to pay for when they wanted to play sc:bw in Korea. This doesn't make any sense. Are you gonna say the same for Europeans? Btw it's pretty obvious why Pokebunny has a hidden reason for asking this, i'll see if you can work it out. I've stated a million times this has nothing to do with my interests as a player, purely as a spectator. I don't expect to get in either way. There's foreigner only tournaments running all the time you can watch. If there's going to be a 100k prize per month you want the best simple as that; The top EU/NA players are on salary anyway so they can afford to practice just as much as Koreans. If they still lose? Then they were not good enough. I want to see more people, not just the top 16 in the world being able to make anything close to an average living.
I think everyone wants that but how does weakening the NASL field do this??
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There has been so much talk about NASL helping the groth of WESTERN ESPORTS. If they turned it into GSL #2 it would only help out the Korean scene, because then only the name would have "NA" in it and except for a few forgein players there would be nothing "western" about it
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Judgeing by the poll, im in the minority with thinking that North Americans should be the majority in the North American Star League, but I can see the positives of inviting people from other countries. So yeah ill just wait and see what the NASL decides.
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On March 16 2011 07:16 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:03 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On March 16 2011 06:56 billyX333 wrote:
I'm not sure if I understand the anti-korean competition argument. I guess people are saying it would be boring to see the tournament dominated by non english speaking personalities? I personally think theres a certain degree of mystique surrounding the korean players when they compete in a foreign competition and I think the value of an NASL title would be greatly diminished if they excluded the best players in the world.
Imagine if a foreigner took down the NASL title by going through MVP and nestea... instant and permanent e-fame. legendary status for the rest of his life. While on the other hand if koreans were intentionally excluded, an NASL title would have as much value as morrow's IEM victory last year or huk's MLG win (before idra and jinro were even in it) Both wins were great but far from legendary
I guess there are two types of spectators in sc2 currently, those who prefer MLG/IEM and those who prefer GSL. I greatly prefer GSL myself The argument has 2 main components. 1: Familiarity. Many of the people who will be competing in the NASL are people who legitimately interact with THIS community. They do interviews, stream, post on these very forums, etc... many of them have a fan base for their personality, not just their gaming abilities. Because of that, adding in the Koreans, who are very, very different in that regard, don't mesh as well. 2: People want to see the NASL and MLG (or any other tournaments) be able to succeed. To have long term success, the player skill has to grow higher than it is now, closer (or at) the GSL level. In order to facilitate that, allowing few or no Koreans increases the likelihood of a foreigner winning more prize money. This encourages the player to be able to play SC2 professionally, and not just as a hobby. When this happens, ideally more and more people can then get team houses and legitimately compete at the top level of the GSL players when they are allowed to dedicate themselves to the game. Then, after this has happened, then restrictions wont even be needed. Somebody earlier mentioned protectionism as an example from economics and I think it's a fairly solid example of what their goals are. 1) I completely dont understand this. WhiteRa doesn't interact much with the english speaking community because of the language barrier but I'd much rather see him play in NASL than some random featured streamer like destiny or orb. 2) This argument hurts my brain. Somebody shouldn't be dependent on the NASL for income. the NASL would be like the world series of poker main event, it would be get rich fast money but it wouldn't be a reliable/constant source of income.
There are obviously some exceptions as to who contributes with actual dialogue. However, people like White-Ra or Brak_OK have been competing in the tournaments around TL for ages. I understand the argument, but they're still more apart of this community than the Koreans, even if they're on the outed edges.
As for your comment on money, it's about exposure. Players shouldn't have to hope to win 1 tournament to be able to eat. However, the biggest tournaments will draw the most number of viewers. More viewers means a better chance of sponsorship. More sponsorship means more people being able to play SC2 competitively and professionally, even if they didn't win the tournament they entered.
Despite Huk not having real success in Korea at all (until recently), do you think he is just that much better than everybody else or because he was given the opportunity to play and practice that long under conditions that are conducive to growing as a player?
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North Americans, Europeans and Koreans should be playing in the NASL. If you want to become a global tournament you need to have the best players. And the NASL already stated they want to become the next BIG thing. Inviting the best players is how you get there.
If no Koreans would play in the NASL than it will be forever the No.2 tournament in the world. You can hype it up as much as you want. It will be the No.2 tournament. Sorry
Also if Europeans, Canadian and Australians would be allowed but not Koreans or Chinese players than I want to yell discrimination. We do not want a white sausage fest.
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On March 16 2011 07:22 Cyberus wrote:
There has been so much talk about NASL helping the groth of WESTERN ESPORTS. If they turned it into GSL #2 it would only help out the Korean scene, because then only the name would have "NA" in it and except for a few forgein players there would be nothing "western" about it
inviting no koreans will acutally not help the western e-sports at all, it will make the nasl more or less meaningless.
voted for 5, maybe 10 (2 per group) would be ok as well.
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If you really want to promote NA/EU players, then the best way to do so is for them to face the best koreans in this tournament and beat them.
Not given a free pass "Look mom im in the finals cuz they didnt invite dem korianz!". That does not make you a star, nor does it make you stand out
Bring it to them, believe it not, most people here who want koreans also want and desire "our" foreigners to beat them. See any time Idra, Jinro etc played in GSL, people were cheering them on.
Show some grit, show some "come at me bro!" attitude, not this "im curled up in my room hoping i dont meet Nestea in NASL :-(" stuff.
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If you want an outlet for 'up and coming NA players', go watch MLG. The prize pool for this tournament is this large for a reason. It is a showcase of the best of the best. This is not for the Joe Blow from no-name-team's of the world. This is not for those that "have other stuff so, like, I can't play all day like the Koreans and it isnt fair and that is the only reason I'm not good enough to compete". I want to see the best players play the best players. That is what I enjoy watching.
After reading the ignorant and offensive comments by pokebunny/neverexpo in this and the original thread, I'm comforted to see that the majority of people adamently disagreed with them.
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The NASL shouldn't just be GSL west. That would be hella stupid to just have another GSL.
I think the point of NASL is to grow the NA and secondarily the EU scene so those players can eventually compete against the Koreans. With NASL and MLG giving more opportunities to NA and EU players to possibly make a good living playing SC2, you might see more than a couple of "foreigners" do well against Koreans on a consistent basis.
If I want to watch GSL, I will watch GSL. However, I would like to watch NA and EU players with a smattering of KR players. Sort of a Bizarro GSL where the Koreans have to have translators to communicate and are out-numbered greatly.
NASL, please give me a ton of NA/EU players..... please.
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On March 16 2011 06:47 seaofsaturn wrote:
Just do the equivalent that GSL does... invite a few. Why would you want more Koreans than North Americans playing in a North American League? This league has already shown that North Americans are willing to live together in order to train and get better, so its just a matter of time before the gap closes.
GSL isn't inviting them . Players earn their spots and this is why i think open qualifiers ala GSL and TSL is the right way to go for future NASLs . How can the organizers even measure the top 50 players in the world ? In the end it will come down to personal preferences . Or just open the page and see which player has earned the most money in the SC2 scene and rank them based on that . "Skill" is also very subjective at this point in time , because 1 top foreigner doesn't stand out as much over the other there maybe few exceptions . I know the invites will be a good mix of skill + achievements , but it would still be impossible to be fair to all players . Look at the TL power rank . Ranking just 10 players brings out the shit storm from every fanboy that has something to defend and imagine it being a 50 spot rank .
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Like I said before, if there is an "upper limit" skill cap on who gets invited, then NASL needs to change their stated goals.
Restricting players because they are too good just stagnates the development of SC2. 
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One thing i forgot: Pokebunny how the fuck can you say you are not talking from a player perspective when you have VOTE FOR ME IN THE NASL in your signature?
Anyway, let's just say there was 50 white guys only in the tournament. Why is that somehow more interesting considering a lot of the tournament is online anyway? You aren't going to see them. Even if you could; How does it make any difference if there's a white guy sitting in the booth rather than an Asian? Most of the foreigners hardly have massive personalities, they just look awkward as fuck ie. IdrA.
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I would want to see some (like 5-10) Code S Koreans in the league. Just some players so our best players can compete with them and see how much better they are (which then encourages the foreigners to train harder).
But please, not to many and definitely not just the best players you can get. I don't want a GSL US edition, that's just pointless. I want to see the best foreigners competing when I watch the NASL, please 
edit: I also think it hurts the foreign esport if Koreans just come in and grab all the prize money lol.
And I totally agree with Pokebunny that foreigners for the most part are way more interesting for us, show more character and (can) interact better with our community. Also I can definitely identify better with a German player playing an American then with a Korean playing... a Korean. (the underdog foreigner vs Korean thing again is GSL stuff)
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Invite the best. It's a damn competition, I think it's stupid to segregate by race. It's not morally right, and preventing people from playing "because they're polite" is retarded. Sounds like someones scared of the competition.
Hell, koreans don't exclude foreigners from their tournaments, even though some of them have been there for years and speak almost no Korean. the whole "before giant amounts of cash" thrown at them is stupid; why the hell does any progamer do it? Of course they love the game, but there's no way they'd join if the prize money was small. It's a huge investment for them to commit to going to the finals if they make it, and so it's just not feasible to come to smaller paying tournament. Face it, would GSL have been such a draw if they weren't offering over 87k? I don't think so.
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To properly develop eSports in the west you need to invite Koreans. Obviously you can't have the NASL overrun with Koreans because then it will just be GSL. But we need to see the best of the best, which is Koreans at the moment, here in the west. Just by bringing the best it will help the scene in the west. We need for our players to see what it is like to compete with Code S talent. They don't have the opportunity to do so right now other than TSL3 which is only a handful of players. We need an up close and personal look at the top level in order to be at the top level.
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Something important to nice is that, people wouldn't be worried about this issue if they knew that the NA players could beat the koreans 50/50, its just as of recently, it's not so sure because of what went down in IEM
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Personally, I think the only form of "inviting" should be inviting them to apply. If someone doesn't want to put forth the effort into the application that the other players did, then they shouldn't get into the first season. After that, there is nothing stopping ANYONE from entering the two qualifier tournaments for future seasons.
On a side note: given that the NASL has wanted to increase focus on the content outside of the game, I wonder to how harsh repercussions could end up being if a player consistently fails to provide the content desired.
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EPT
