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That's an interesting question... Something that I believe should be considered is the lag that koreans will have to play with if/when they get in the NASL. I have not experienced the lag in this situation myself but from what I've heard, it's pretty bad; enough to hamper a player's performance, which is bad for the league imho.
I wonder if it could or should be required to play on and from the NA server to be eligible to compete in the NASL... I mean, it would ensure the highest level of play from the participating players. It's also something that is required to an even higher level for GSL or other live tournaments where the players need to be right at the venue, LAN-style.
Then if the koreans decide to come live in America to compete in NASL (just like our foreigners need to go in Korea to compete in the GSL), then by all means, they should be welcomed!
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its a north american star league. do we let cfl football teams play in the NFL?
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On March 16 2011 07:27 polarity wrote:
And here I thought NASL was meant to grow esports in the west. Somehow I don't see how it will be much different than GSL if 45 koreans and 5 foreigners will be competing.
And here I thought NASL was supposed to be a huge competition, not a consolation prize because people think that foreigners can't compete with Koreans. the most deserving should get the prize money, not the most deserving BUT the best.
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I don't know what the purpose of NASL is or what they want to accomplish. But if they want to be a league for the best players in the world (I think I've heard them say this), then they should invite as many of the good Koreans as possible (which would take up a lot of spaces).
But personally, I don't think NASL should try to represent itself as a league for the best players in the world. We already have the GSL. I mean the titles themselves obviously illustrate the difference. One is global the other is North American. I think NASL should just establish a league setting where they have players from various foreign teams competing.
This would be a lot like the NCAA (college basketball league in the US), which has a TON of popularity (possibly more than the NBA) even though everyone knows the players aren't all NBA quality. This is because fans have their favorite teams and players to root for, and feel a connection with the team. This would kinda also be like TSL 1 and 2, but with a lot larger following.
If foreigners ever did match top Korean level of play, then I think it would be a good choice to invite the Koreans. But in my opinion, foreigners will not be able to match the top Korean level of play until the progaming culture changes, they move into practice houses, start taking this as a full-time job and way of life, and have a good incentive to practice all day, such as this league, with it's massive prize pool. Foreign teams should also be able to get more sponsors if NASL does this, and teams should be able to pay players higher salaries.
I think the NASL has the potential to step up the entire level of play of foreigners and that would be a huge boon to the esports scene outside of Korea.
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On March 16 2011 07:23 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:16 billyX333 wrote:On March 16 2011 07:03 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On March 16 2011 06:56 billyX333 wrote:
I'm not sure if I understand the anti-korean competition argument. I guess people are saying it would be boring to see the tournament dominated by non english speaking personalities? I personally think theres a certain degree of mystique surrounding the korean players when they compete in a foreign competition and I think the value of an NASL title would be greatly diminished if they excluded the best players in the world.
Imagine if a foreigner took down the NASL title by going through MVP and nestea... instant and permanent e-fame. legendary status for the rest of his life. While on the other hand if koreans were intentionally excluded, an NASL title would have as much value as morrow's IEM victory last year or huk's MLG win (before idra and jinro were even in it) Both wins were great but far from legendary
I guess there are two types of spectators in sc2 currently, those who prefer MLG/IEM and those who prefer GSL. I greatly prefer GSL myself The argument has 2 main components. 1: Familiarity. Many of the people who will be competing in the NASL are people who legitimately interact with THIS community. They do interviews, stream, post on these very forums, etc... many of them have a fan base for their personality, not just their gaming abilities. Because of that, adding in the Koreans, who are very, very different in that regard, don't mesh as well. 2: People want to see the NASL and MLG (or any other tournaments) be able to succeed. To have long term success, the player skill has to grow higher than it is now, closer (or at) the GSL level. In order to facilitate that, allowing few or no Koreans increases the likelihood of a foreigner winning more prize money. This encourages the player to be able to play SC2 professionally, and not just as a hobby. When this happens, ideally more and more people can then get team houses and legitimately compete at the top level of the GSL players when they are allowed to dedicate themselves to the game. Then, after this has happened, then restrictions wont even be needed. Somebody earlier mentioned protectionism as an example from economics and I think it's a fairly solid example of what their goals are. 1) I completely dont understand this. WhiteRa doesn't interact much with the english speaking community because of the language barrier but I'd much rather see him play in NASL than some random featured streamer like destiny or orb. 2) This argument hurts my brain. Somebody shouldn't be dependent on the NASL for income. the NASL would be like the world series of poker main event, it would be get rich fast money but it wouldn't be a reliable/constant source of income. There are obviously some exceptions as to who contributes with actual dialogue. However, people like White-Ra or Brak_OK have been competing in the tournaments around TL for ages. I understand the argument, but they're still more apart of this community than the Koreans, even if they're on the outed edges. As for your comment on money, it's about exposure. Players shouldn't have to hope to win 1 tournament to be able to eat. However, the biggest tournaments will draw the most number of viewers. More viewers means a better chance of sponsorship. More sponsorship means more people being able to play SC2 competitively and professionally, even if they didn't win the tournament they entered. Despite Huk not having real success in Korea at all (until recently), do you think he is just that much better than everybody else or because he was given the opportunity to play and practice that long under conditions that are conducive to growing as a player?
On the economics part of it, I think a lot of it is all theoretical. A salary comes from the team which needs the exposure and a team needs an established house to train in to get better and pick up new talent. I think this burden lies on established teams more so than on players. Most new talent in BW had to be groomed for over a year before making their pro league debuts. Flash didn't give KT additional exposure until after they had groomed and trained him up after scouting him.
edit - to clarify my point, the established pro gaming teams gave opportunities to players before players gave the team any amount of exposure
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If they end up picking koreans, I hope they know how to adapt more towards North American culture and actually show a personality on camera. That is the main issue I see with getting korean players.
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MKP, MVP, Nestea, MC in NASL, WHOOHOOO, WANT !
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This whole situation reminds me of hockey. The KHL is to the NHL as the NASL is to the GSL, where the North American hockey players are the Korean SC2 players.
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I just hope to god that the NASL doesn't consider arguments like "I don't want to see them in the league because they speak 'gibberish'" or Pokebunny's "they aren't part of our community". That kind of base xenophobia is coming out trying to disguise itself as people just saying what they "like as a spectator". Okay, you don't like seeing people different from you as a spectator. I hope your opinion is totally ignored.
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On March 16 2011 07:30 apalemorning wrote:
its a north american star league. do we let cfl football teams play in the NFL?
It's a north american starleague because it's hosted in NA. They didn't say it's a North American Starleague because only players from NA are in it. Hell, if that were true the Europeans couldn't compete either.
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If NA/EU don't want to practice as hard as Koreans, they don't deserve to win the big money, it's as simple as that. If you want to turn the NASL into a popularity contest, go ahead, but then you can't call the people who win prize money "top players" because you didn't even give him the chance to compete against a majority of Koreans who would probably beat them if given the chance.
If you really want to be the best at SC, then BE the best. Don't bitch that Koreans are going to own you. Look at what Jinro did, he wanted to be the best he could, so he trained liked a Korean and he got to the Ro4 2 seasons in a row. Instead of crying, start practicing NA/EU. Time to step you game up. If NA/EU players were on average as good as Koreans, this wouldn't even be an issue, so stop whining and start PLAYING 12 hours a day like they do.
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My personal feeling is that anyone outside of NA shouldn't be invited. Not that non NA residents can't compete at all, but they should have to qualify.
It's a NA tournament, it should prioritise players in the NA. The issue of latency shouldn't be ignored and players playing from Korea or even Europe will negatively effect the quality of the games more than not having the "best" players.
The GSL is there as a Global league, and as such have to make an effort to include "foreigners" as it's not much of a Global league without them.
Conversely I don't expect to see Koreans or non NA residents in a North American League.
The same way I don't expect to see Milan playing in the UK Premiership or Switzerland in the 6 Nations.
There are other leagues and tournaments that cater for the whole world, such as the TSL and GSL. Just as in other sports the localised tournaments aren't any less important than the global ones.
Indeed I prefer watching the 6 Nations over the Rugby World Cup in most cases.
An online version of GSL with mostly the same players but a different format and all the problems that online play brings would be a pretty shitty tournament in my eyes.
A completely different, and NA based tournament would be far more entertaining than a half-assed online imitation of the GSL.
Also I note a lot of idiots in this thread are suggesting that Foreigners are not competing in the GSL because they are not good enough when this is just not the case, most do not compete because the GSL is in KOREA. If a player isn't in korea they can't compete not because of skill, but because of physical limitations of the fucking universe.
NASL would not be a "consolation" tournament for those not in the GSL, it will be the tournament they can physically take part in.
The Starcraft community is the only gaming and sport community in the entire world to think that it's ok and proper to have all major tournaments in one country, it boggles my mind how people don't get the basic concept of distance and that it fucking matters what country a tournament is in.
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Arn't the Koreans going to have to play in the middle of the night with lag when they might have a gsl game the next day they should be sleeping for?
I'd be nice if this decision could be made after seeing if Korea loses any games in TSL and the Gom world championship. I think 5 or 10 would be best for now but it'll be tricky how they handle it if after 2 seasons 32 koreans enter from the qualifier leaving few foreigners.
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On March 16 2011 07:31 Weasel- wrote:
If they end up picking koreans, I hope they know how to adapt more towards North American culture and actually show a personality on camera. That is the main issue I see with getting korean players.
I hope they do too, but IdrA and Jinro were allowed in Code S and they speak little to no Korean, and certainly not enough to do an interview.
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On March 16 2011 07:30 apalemorning wrote:
its a north american star league. do we let cfl football teams play in the NFL?
This is the most fucked up logic ever.
Do we ban Canadians from playing in the NFL?
Yeesh, some people these days. Formulating a proper argument is okay, but this kind of blantant stupidiy is what causes all these problems in the first place.
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On March 16 2011 07:30 apalemorning wrote:
its a north american star league. do we let cfl football teams play in the NFL?
Dude, did you take a moment to think before posting that?
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On March 16 2011 07:32 Kazang wrote:
My personal feeling is that anyone outside of NA shouldn't be invited. Not that non NA residents can't compete at all, but they should have to qualify.
It's a NA tournament, it should prioritise players in the NA. The issue of latency shouldn't be ignored and players playing from Korea or even Europe will negatively effect the quality of the games more than not having the "best" players.
The GSL is there as a Global league, and as such have to make an effort to include "foreigners" as it's not much of a Global league without them.
Conversely I don't expect to see Koreans or non NA residents in a North American League.
The same way I don't expect to see Milan playing in the UK Premiership or Switzerland in the 6 Nations.
There are other leagues and tournaments that cater for the whole world, such as the TSL and GSL. Just as in other sports the localised tournaments aren't any less important than the global ones.
Indeed I prefer watching the 6 Nations over the Rugby World Cup in most cases.
An online version of GSL with mostly the same players but a different format and all the problems that online play brings would be a pretty shitty tournament in my eyes.
A completely different, and NA based tournament would be far more entertaining than a half-assed online imitation of the GSL.
I don't think there are any invites, it's invites to the qualifiers I believe.
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On March 16 2011 07:27 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote:
Pokebunny how the fuck can you say you are not talking from a player perspective when you have VOTE FOR ME IN THE NASL in your signature?
Anyway, let's just say there was 50 white guys only in the tournament. Why is that somehow more interesting considering a lot of the tournament is online anyway? You aren't going to see them. Even if you could; How does it make any difference if there's a white guy sitting in the booth rather than an Asian? Most of the foreigners hardly have massive personalities, they just look awkward as fuck ie. IdrA. do I want to be in NASL? Of course. That doesn't mean all my opinions about what I'd like to see as a spectator are invalid. I don't expect to come close to making NASL.
All due respect, your 'preference' as a spectator is very unusual.
There are somewhat legitimate reasons for protectionist measures...
...but 'I prefer watching bad players because good players are boring' is pretty retarded.
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On March 16 2011 07:30 apalemorning wrote:
its a north american star league. do we let cfl football teams play in the NFL?
No Offense, but if it would be only North American players in the NASL, i doubt a lot of people from outside North America would watch it, let alone actually pay for the stream 
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On March 16 2011 07:34 Mithriel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07:30 apalemorning wrote:
its a north american star league. do we let cfl football teams play in the NFL?
No Offense, but if it would be only North American players in the NASL, i doubt a lot of people from outside North America would watch it, let alone actually pay for the stream
i doubt even alot of NA people would pay or watch it x.x, it would just be another "daily tour that u can watch free" only good thing would be that they have SOME production.
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EPT
