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It's really like getting the world's biggest cake and baking it according to a Korean recipe, but not inviting Koreans to the party.
In my opinion, we really need to hand the success of e-sports (SC in particular) to Korea. If we deny the best of the best a chance to even participate, this defeats the purpose.
Personally, I don't think that it's right to deny a group from participating because they would simply be too good. If the western scene gets slaughtered by the Koreans, so be it. If we will only progress by continually getting our faces mashed, so be it.
At this rate, NASL will be a tournament almost exclusively for westerners who (no offense to them, maybe just an unlucky day) have been soundly crushed by three (albeit strong) players knocked out of Code A in the first round. I am no expert, but all this will do is kill the scene in the future, when people realize that the NASL is not even close compared to the GSL. It's kinda like natural selection and geographic isolation (you can tell what I'm learning in bio  ). If we isolate the Koreans now, we will have a far smaller drive to train and improve play. The Korean skill would saturate in the GSL, and Korean strategies, timing knowledge, gamesense will never be exposed to western players on a scale that will push them to get better.
If we want to thrive as a proscene, let's not do it by isolating the Koreans; we have to do it by beating the Koreans.
@pokebunny: You're an inspiration for young'uns like me, but please. Don't argue this.
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On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:27 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:26 Clare wrote:On March 16 2011 08:24 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't understand how you can say I'm being racist when every point I've made has simply been due to practicality and entertainment rather than race. That's subjective though. Sure, you might not feel connected to the Koreans, but some people might. I completely agree that my opinion is subjective, however I don't think it's fair to say my points are based entirely on the race of the player. I'm merely expressing what I would like to see as a spectator. No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL. Don't lie.
I don't agree with Pokebunny at all, but at least refute his arguments instead of making up bullshit when he has stated the opposite multiple times.
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On March 16 2011 08:21 Jayrod wrote:
Hrmmm it bothers me that NASL is exclusionary and GSL is not.
The GSL has no online qualification or chance for advancement. Forcing people to come to your country for an entire month to try and win your tournament isn't a form of exclusion? Its indirect, but it still cuts out the chances of 90% of foreigners with that dream.
I just don't get it, but I guess I'm the minority? You guys want the NASL to be an online version of the GSL? So screw growing esports in NA/EU and fostering our own players? This so called "esport" isn't like any sport I've grown up enjoying. I don't root for the Brazilian soccer team come World Cup time because they have the "best skill" or the "best scene".
To each his own I suppose. Personally I won't be paying to watch a watered down version of the GSL.
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Allowing more than just a few koreans to compete in the NASL would undermine our quest for global parity. It would be a step backwards.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
and why is everyone reacting so much to the dumb shit pokebunny is saying? isnt he like 15?
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On March 16 2011 08:16 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:13 RivalryRedux wrote:
I'm sort of in the dark as to why people think letting tons of Koreans in the tournament will help foreign teams grow. Any foreign teams planning to make houses would lose tons of equity if Koreans hold most of the league spots. If you have to face Cruncher, you will prepare 4-5 hours or whatever your schedule is and hope to win If you have to face MC, you will pray to Jesus that he dosent totally humilate you and stomp you, thus practicing 12+ hours a day just not to look like a complete punk. This helps foreigners as it forces them to practice more, growing their talents and even giving them a chance to head to GSL and compete. (note my post isent about flaming Cruncher or anyone, i think my point is pretty clear as to what i really mean)
There's surely something to be said for playing harder to be the best but at the same time it has it's limits. There has to be money to be made to get people to do things like drop their jobs and make team houses on a large scale and there's not exactly a lot of "cash on the table" in a tournament with 63 MCs + You.
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Stern: Hello LeBron
LeBron: sup may'n
Stern: Right sup, anyway LeBronski, we cant have you playing in the NBA anymore
LeBron: you be trippin' dawg
Stern: I am dead serious Mister! You are too good, bye!
*NBA ratings plummet*
Mike Scalabrine: Look as a spectator i just dont want to see LeBron compete, its not about skill, i just want a all-white NBA, its more entertaining for me! As a spectator! I swear!
*Scalabrine wins MVP and 10 rings*
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On March 16 2011 08:26 Skillz_Man wrote:
I think it needs to be a non-korean tourney.
The only Analogy I can think of is: Nobody wants to watch a Grizzly Bear fight in UFC. It's about being able to relate to the players for most viewers, unlike the hardcore ones here at Teamliquid. Watching some korean guys play who don't even speak english isn't interesting to most. And that's why I think maybe have a limit of 5 koreans... But I think no koreans would be even better.
People drastically overestimate the gab between NA/EU and Korea. All of them bring great games to the table and in the end it's all that matters. And with lots of money on the line, it may become more popular for people to quit their jobs to play Starcraft and close the gap between Koreans completely.
I really don't understand, why the fuck wouldn't it be interesting to anyone. You watch STARCRAFT for the games of STARCRAFT. What else is there? The interviews? It's actually making me annoyed someone would even think like this, its ridiculous. I can't 'relate' to White-Ra or Mondragon anymore than a Korean player, infact i know the personalities of some Korean players far better.
On March 16 2011 08:30 PHedemark wrote:
What few people in this thread actually grasp, is that the NASL is a typical North American project. They want the best players in the world, and possibly also the biggest names in the world. But not on the expense of their North American superstars.
Uhh if you limit to 'North American' superstars then theres no point in this whole thing. I think most people on here wouldn't pay for it at all, and the North Americans themselves would never even have to further themselves or play any better. How can you even think Grubby is somehow more marketable to a wider audience? He's a typical nerd.
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On March 16 2011 08:23 rysecake wrote:The naivety on this forum is ridiculous. When will you guys learn that Korea is simply far ahead of the foreigner scene? It's not like this is startling news. It's been like this since the dawn of brood war time. Without the koreans, this tournament is just another 3rd tier competition. Show nested quote + I think people take this Korean advantage out of proportion in SCII. It is simply the amount of time they put into the game. If foreigners put the same amount of time, they will have a chance. No this isn't taken out of proportion at all. It takes a blind person to see the Korean's have a huge advantage. You're only making excuses. "If the foreigners put the same amount of time, they will have a chance" ? Ok, then they should do it...
It isn't just Koreans though, it is people who are practicing as much as them. Team Liquid and IdrA are able to compete with Koreans just fine because they put in the hours.
I know foreigners have jobs/school and they cannot commit 100% to SCII, but they shouldn't win beau coup money if they are only half committed. This is a league, it needs to have high standards for players.
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Just have a scaling 25% Korean limit.
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While I eventually want to see Koreans over here competing, and don't think anyone should be barred based on region, I DO think it would be good to get the Western Scene properly established before we have them compete with us. Otherwise foreign players will stagnate as they don't even get to compete in their own big regional league.
Give the NASL 3-4 seasons, and some Korean style practice houses, and you'll see foreign level match the Korean level. Before that, if you just have Koreans here, it may slow that process.
idk, might be wrong, but Korea is established in E-sports, we're really not yet. I'd like to see us at least get grounded before we tried to take that particular pillar on.
Don't limit the number of Koreans, they didn't do that to us, but no need to advertise it until we're ready. I just want E-sports to be properly established here in the West before we have (essentially) cross league play.
I dream of a NASL vs GSL league playoff...EPIC.
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On March 16 2011 08:29 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:On March 16 2011 08:27 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:26 Clare wrote:On March 16 2011 08:24 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't understand how you can say I'm being racist when every point I've made has simply been due to practicality and entertainment rather than race. That's subjective though. Sure, you might not feel connected to the Koreans, but some people might. I completely agree that my opinion is subjective, however I don't think it's fair to say my points are based entirely on the race of the player. I'm merely expressing what I would like to see as a spectator. No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL. Don't lie. I'm not lying. I'd much rather watch 50 EU/NA players. I watch every IEM and MLG and maybe 3 GSL games a season max.
Is this an e-sport or an e-sport? Are we trying to help e-sports grow or make a mockery of it?
When I want to watch Basketball, I watch the NBA. When I want to watch football, I watch the NFL. How popular do you think a KBA or KFL would be? Because that's essentially what you want the NASL to be.
If it's an e-sport, then you have to have the best competition, PERIOD. If not, what else is this besides a feel good tournament for less-skilled players?
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what do you think will spark more competition?
A) get best of best korean players to NASL and get OWNED by koreans on the first year.
B) get subpar korean players to NASL and let's say Fenix wins.
next NASL around, who do you think will improve more? players that practices to beat the best player and take back the trophy? or players that practice to beat Fenix. fuckin fenix.
you gotta play at a same playing field to have skills catch up. if you have exclusive tourneys region(skill in this sense), then they will never close down on that gap
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I don't understand this either/or mentality a lot of people seem to have. You all seem to be turning this into a hard decision of best players vs. having it be the big foreigner tournament when there's no reason we can't have the best of both worlds.
Having the best players competing is huge for the credibility of any tournament, especially one with goals as ambitious as the NASL. It would feel very fake and lame to me if they advertised the NASL as the tournament for the best players in the world while only having 5 Code A Koreans in it. The TSLs 1 and 2 were awesome because it was awesomely made, it was made by TL and it was basically the last 2 big tournaments for foreign BW. Nevertheless, knowing that there were lots of Koreans out there that could've raped the TSL with ease definitely hurt the prestige of the tournament.
At the same time, we obviously don't want NASL to be a second GSL, with 40 Koreans and a Korean champion every season. This is supposed to be the biggest and most international tournament yet and the invites should reflect that.
Both these arguments are valid and both should go into the decision of which players to invite. I feel like 5 Koreans is too few. The top Koreans represent the highest level of play in the world at the moment and to only give them 5 spots (ie. less spots than they'll give the other regions) would limit the tournament's credibility. What I'd like to see would be something like: 15 spots each for Europe, NA and Korea and 5 spots for the other regions. If you want to include more Americans, reduce the spots for Europe and Korea slightly. That way the tournament would still be mostly non-Korean (35 out of 50 players), but you could include all the Koreans that really deserve an invite to a tournament as big as this.
What I really don't get is inviting mediocre Koreans. If you're going to let Koreans play, invite the best ones.
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They should be inviting the 50 best players in the world who can make the finals if they make it, I don't want to see some weak players making it in just to make the numbers.
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On March 16 2011 08:31 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:On March 16 2011 08:27 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:26 Clare wrote:On March 16 2011 08:24 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't understand how you can say I'm being racist when every point I've made has simply been due to practicality and entertainment rather than race. That's subjective though. Sure, you might not feel connected to the Koreans, but some people might. I completely agree that my opinion is subjective, however I don't think it's fair to say my points are based entirely on the race of the player. I'm merely expressing what I would like to see as a spectator. No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL. Don't lie. I don't agree with Pokebunny at all, but at least refute his arguments instead of making up bullshit when he has stated the opposite multiple times.
Look at his signature. He applied for the NASL. If Koreans compete, he has no chance of getting in seeing as he's not considered to be that high-level of a player. Please tell me when I was the one bullshitting.
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Honestly, for the American people who proudly proclaim that the title is "NASL" and that Korean/EU spots should be limited with an American dominance - that's basically what you already have MLG for? I personally find the MLG watchable, but vastly inferior to GSL and even IEM when it comes to skill displayed. You're simply not going to generate enough interest in a tournament if it's mostly consisting of players that are only really known by the most hardcore scene followers, or Americans only.
The whole goal of the tournament was to gather the best of the best and let them go at it. This generates money, interest and builds legacy's. If someone won NASL with 30 NAs, 15 EUs and 5 B-Team Koreans there, chances are, he's not going to get even 20% of the respect that Nestea MC, MVP etc have.
I think the OP's poll options aren't the best they could be. For me to buy a premium ticket, I'd like to see the best players. Even having a tournament this big aimed at western audiences should be enough incentive for our scene to catch up with the Koreans. Shunning them for "being too good" is cowardice and will never promote growth and money.
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On March 16 2011 08:35 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:31 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:On March 16 2011 08:27 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:26 Clare wrote:On March 16 2011 08:24 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't understand how you can say I'm being racist when every point I've made has simply been due to practicality and entertainment rather than race. That's subjective though. Sure, you might not feel connected to the Koreans, but some people might. I completely agree that my opinion is subjective, however I don't think it's fair to say my points are based entirely on the race of the player. I'm merely expressing what I would like to see as a spectator. No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL. Don't lie. I don't agree with Pokebunny at all, but at least refute his arguments instead of making up bullshit when he has stated the opposite multiple times. Look at his signature. He applied for the NASL. If Koreans compete, he has no chance of getting in seeing as he's not considered to be that high-level of a player. Please tell me when I was the one bullshitting.
When you said my opinion was biased as a potential player. I'm not gonna make it in either way.
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On March 16 2011 08:31 Rekrul wrote:
and why is everyone reacting so much to the dumb shit pokebunny is saying? isnt he like 15?
Yeah, but he's a 15 year old who's basically lying his ass off and making gross exaggerations over and over. And as any internet forum, people are taking the bait. 
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EPT
