On March 16 2011 06:47 seaofsaturn wrote: Just do the equivalent that GSL does... invite a few. Why would you want more Koreans than North Americans playing in a North American League? This league has already shown that North Americans are willing to live together in order to train and get better, so its just a matter of time before the gap closes.
1. GSL unfairly stacks the game in favor of foreigners. ANYONE can qualify, but foreigners get free spots on top of that. So don't act like the GSL is against foreigners; it gives foreign players far more benefits than Koreans.
2. If NA players are going to close the skill gap, let them. Don't give them free passes though. Let NA players train hard and get to the point where they can beat Koreans in a tournament without being treated like little children.
If you separate the players into their own league, they will practice to the level it requires to try and win that league. They won't practice to GSL/Korean level and the Koreans will shoot far ahead. I really struggle to see how having a tournament will the slots filled by inferior players who do not dedicate all their time to practice will somehow raise the level of the top Foreigners. If anything they will just stagnate in skill because they simply won't need to play at the highest level possible.
Invite anyone good enough to compete in the NASL. Though the NASL format really bothers me, having an invitational for so much money and prestige seems wrong to me. Especially considering that the maximum turnover for each season is only 8 players.
I've been getting anti-hyped for NASL ever since it was officially announced, the whole thing just seems like it has been designed/run amateurishly.
On March 16 2011 08:03 SexyHyung wrote: Listening to Pokebunny, at first I thought he was trolling, but I guess this is what happens when you let little kids post whatever they want without supervision. I was insulted by many things that he said.
First of all, he stated somewhere that korean players are only in this for the money. Let's not be naive and pretend that money isn't a factor in this, but to blatantly accuse every single korean player of being a money grubbing ho is just ridiculous. I'm sure that pokebunny is too young to know, but some people have other motivations to play starcraft, such as they find it fun, they love to play starcraft, and they want to be known, they want to show some great games to their fans, and they want to play against some good foreigners and have some great games. People don't become professional starcraft gamers just for the money.
Something that just comes to mind for example is a video I recently saw of Artosis at the 2005 WCG. He said that he just quit whatever job he was doing and spend a few months focusing solely on getting better, and that it was the highlight of his year. That was how dedicated he was and how much he loved the game. Are you going to accuse him of moving to korea and becoming a paid caster just because he's greedy and hes in it for the money?
Pokebunny also said that julyzerg was being fake, and not into whatever just because his english wasn't that great.
Are you serious? Do you honestly expect people who probably studied some korean in highschool to be able to freely speak english? Yah, maybe they've seen titanic, but that's not enough to make you fluent. And you're not even referring to anybody else. Have you heard Moman? I don't even know half the shit he's saying. It's not as if I don't get the subtle reference here is that you don't like english with non-white accents. No matter how racist you don't think you are, it really makes me wonder. All you hear is probably ching chong ling long ting tong, but i can understand them alot more clearly than 90% of the european player videos. I'm not even going to mention some others, like QXC, who doesn't even have sound in his.
If pokebunny did really say those things, then he really isn't mature enough to be in ANY league at this point.
On March 16 2011 06:47 seaofsaturn wrote: Just do the equivalent that GSL does... invite a few. Why would you want more Koreans than North Americans playing in a North American League? This league has already shown that North Americans are willing to live together in order to train and get better, so its just a matter of time before the gap closes.
1. GSL unfairly stacks the game in favor of foreigners. ANYONE can qualify, but foreigners get free spots on top of that. So don't act like the GSL is against foreigners; it gives foreign players far more benefits than Koreans.
This point needs to be highlighted.
IT IS SO MUCH EASIER, for foreigners to get into the GSL than a typical top 200 ladder Korean.
Where you live should not matter AT ALL when it comes to this. If it is truly a "star league" then the best should compete regardless of where they were born. There is nothing stopping the world from being as good as the Korean gamers.
On March 16 2011 08:03 SexyHyung wrote: Listening to Pokebunny, at first I thought he was trolling, but I guess this is what happens when you let little kids post whatever they want without supervision. I was insulted by many things that he said.
First of all, he stated somewhere that korean players are only in this for the money. Let's not be naive and pretend that money isn't a factor in this, but to blatantly accuse every single korean player of being a money grubbing ho is just ridiculous. I'm sure that pokebunny is too young to know, but some people have other motivations to play starcraft, such as they find it fun, they love to play starcraft, and they want to be known, they want to show some great games to their fans, and they want to play against some good foreigners and have some great games. People don't become professional starcraft gamers just for the money.
Something that just comes to mind for example is a video I recently saw of Artosis at the 2005 WCG. He said that he just quit whatever job he was doing and spend a few months focusing solely on getting better, and that it was the highlight of his year. That was how dedicated he was and how much he loved the game. Are you going to accuse him of moving to korea and becoming a paid caster just because he's greedy and hes in it for the money?
Pokebunny also said that julyzerg was being fake, and not into whatever just because his english wasn't that great.
Are you serious? Do you honestly expect people who probably studied some korean in highschool to be able to freely speak english? Yah, maybe they've seen titanic, but that's not enough to make you fluent. And you're not even referring to anybody else. Have you heard Moman? I don't even know half the shit he's saying. It's not as if I don't get the subtle reference here is that you don't like english with non-white accents. No matter how racist you don't think you are, it really makes me wonder. All you hear is probably ching chong ling long ting tong, but i can understand them alot more clearly than 90% of the european player videos. I'm not even going to mention some others, like QXC, who doesn't even have sound in his.
reminds me of this
and to say that korean sc2 players have no personality is so lulzy. sure they may be polite, but it's not as if people like socke or white-ra are raging in their face. they can conduct funny interviews to, albeit in korean due to the english language barrier. they have shit tons of personality, most of it showed through the playing style of their games. they don't need to have idra-level BM to have personality.
I absolutely agree with this. It saddens me to see young people with racist tendencies in them. I don't think he is too young to realize this though. 15 years should be enough to figure out that everybody on this planet is the same, no matter what part we were born in. It also seemed to me that he thinks being American should be a plus point for him being in the league (it was one of the things he mentioned under "why should you be in the league?" in the application video).
Starcraft 2 has the potential to be not only the biggest e-sport community, but also to bring together different cultures and people of all nations. Mindsets like Pokebunnys are counter productive to that.
I think people take this Korean advantage out of proportion in SCII. It is simply the amount of time they put into the game. If foreigners put the same amount of time, they will have a chance.
Just sounds like excuses to me. 'If's' are nice, eh? One community is better than the other, if the other community isn't up to par then maybe they should put the time required. On the bright side, I do see some initiative being started with certain peoples making team houses and such.
Yeah, all of these pepole who have jobs, and need to finance their apartment, food, water etc etc should STFU, quit their job, and start playing 8-9 hours of SC2 per day, with all of their teammates who should do the same, just so that they will be as good as the Koreans.
yeah, no, Koreans can practice that hard because they live in team houses, with a lot of their teammates, you can't expect the foreign scene to grow to that size if there's not the same amount of money in both scenes.
If NA/EU players will know that there's enougn money in SC2 to live in team houses, that will help close the gap between the Korean scene and other scenes.
In my opinion, they should be choosing players based on SKILL, not on nationality. Who cares if someone's from a different country; if they are great at SC invite them. Not inviting Koreans would make the NASL look bad... like foreigners are afraid of the big bad Koreans. That's like banning African Americans from the NFL, or banning Japanese from the MLB because they are too good compared to white people. It's dumb.
The naivety on this forum is ridiculous. When will you guys learn that Korea is simply far ahead of the foreigner scene? It's not like this is startling news. It's been like this since the dawn of brood war time. Without the koreans, this tournament is just another 3rd tier competition.
I think people take this Korean advantage out of proportion in SCII. It is simply the amount of time they put into the game. If foreigners put the same amount of time, they will have a chance.
No this isn't taken out of proportion at all. It takes a blind person to see the Korean's have a huge advantage. You're only making excuses. "If the foreigners put the same amount of time, they will have a chance" ? Ok, then they should do it...
On March 16 2011 08:21 Jayrod wrote: Hrmmm it bothers me that NASL is exclusionary and GSL is not. .
How about TSL 2 rules
if you live in North America (maybe europe) you can play in NASL
listen GSL isn't close to being "not exclusionary". It has at least a round trip flight ticket, food, etc cost along with a very hard road to even get into Code S if you are good enough.
There is no way GSL is open to every NA player like people want NASL to invite 1/2 koreans.
Before IEM I would definately say invite koreans, but after jetlagged + Show Spoiler +
Code A
Ace/Moon/Squirtle took 1 2 and 3, I have to say no top code s/code a koreans. But that would cause a problem when the best players like Jinro/Idra who can easily compete with Top Code S players get to the tournament and its basically their tournament to lose. That creates a little bit of hype though, kind of like Daigo I guess in SSF4. He is always expected to win, so if he loses, the internet blows up.
On March 16 2011 08:21 Jayrod wrote: Hrmmm it bothers me that NASL is exclusionary and GSL is not. .
How about TSL 2 rules
if you live in North America (maybe europe) you can play in NASL
listen GSL isn't close to being "not exclusionary". It has at least a round trip flight ticket, food, etc cost along with a very hard road to even get into Code S if you are good enough.
There is no way GSL is open to every NA player like people want NASL to invite 1/2 koreans.
The GSL code A qualifiers are open to ALL foreign players, regardless of ranking.
Stop including travel flights in this, it'd be the same for a korean wanting to come to america.
On March 16 2011 07:32 Kazang wrote: My personal feeling is that anyone outside of NA shouldn't be invited. Not that non NA residents can't compete at all, but they should have to qualify.
It's a NA tournament, it should prioritise players in the NA. The issue of latency shouldn't be ignored and players playing from Korea or even Europe will negatively effect the quality of the games more than not having the "best" players.
The GSL is there as a Global league, and as such have to make an effort to include "foreigners" as it's not much of a Global league without them. Conversely I don't expect to see Koreans or non NA residents in a North American League. The same way I don't expect to see Milan playing in the UK Premiership or Switzerland in the 6 Nations.
There are other leagues and tournaments that cater for the whole world, such as the TSL and GSL. Just as in other sports the localised tournaments aren't any less important than the global ones. Indeed I prefer watching the 6 Nations over the Rugby World Cup in most cases.
An online version of GSL with mostly the same players but a different format and all the problems that online play brings would be a pretty shitty tournament in my eyes. A completely different, and NA based tournament would be far more entertaining than a half-assed online imitation of the GSL.
Your analogy is terrible though. The premiership has mostly foreign players in, and it's the biggest league in the world because of it.
The NASL should not prioritize a load of unworthy NA players to get in just because they are known. It undermines the competition.
No my analogy is fine. UK Premiership attracts foreign players, they come and play IN the UK. What country they were born in doesn't matter at all, it is where they are that matters. It's the biggest league in the world because it has the most money and attracts the best players. See the point? If a player wants to play in the UK Premiership and and earn their millions they have to come live on a grubby little island and play there. Likewise if players want to compete in the North American star league they should be in NA, not in Korea, or anywhere else.
I said in post it should apply to players resident in NA, not "a load of unworthy NA players to get in just because they are known". If IM want to move to NA to compete in NASL just like Liquid had to to compete in GSL then more power to them. I hope they do, but I really don't want to have them playing from across the pacific on a shitty connection, having it online at all is bad enough without taking it to playing across different continents.
I think it's a joke to ignore the physical boundaries of the world and say it's ok to play in a NA league from another continent.
You're looking at this the wrong way, the North American in NASL doesn't mean a thing when they announced they wanted the best players from all over the WORLD in ONLINE groupstages to ONLY hold the FINALS @ lan.
I could easily say that you are looking at it the wrong way. What they want, what "we" want and what actually happens are doubtlessly going to be different.
They have said that they want to grow esport in the west and having a online tournament featuring mostly players who live in Korea isn't really going to do much for that. Why indeed did they even call it the North American Star League if the NA part is completely irrelevant?
Why not have regional qualifiers similar to ESL if they really want to include players from all over the world? They have already stated they are going to be playing all the games on the NA server. So players from europe or asia are going to be at a latency disadvantage, decreasing the quality of the games substantially.
My concern is that they are being half assed about it, they say they want to have the "best players from around the world" but handicap anyone outside of NA. If it's going to be a global tournament then it should use global rules, have proper regional qualifiers, keep latency and handicaps to a minimum, then take it LAN for the finals. If it's not going to be a truly global tournament and is forcing play to happen on the NA server against players on a different continent then it begs the question why not just limit it to NA residents properly, instead of this half assed pseudo global tournament bullshit.
They can't please everyone and I'm concerned that trying to is just going to end up pleasing no one and having it end up a failure.
The only Analogy I can think of is: Nobody wants to watch a Grizzly Bear fight in UFC. It's about being able to relate to the players for most viewers, unlike the hardcore ones here at Teamliquid. Watching some korean guys play who don't even speak english isn't interesting to most. And that's why I think maybe have a limit of 5 koreans... But I think no koreans would be even better.
People drastically overestimate the gab between NA/EU and Korea. All of them bring great games to the table and in the end it's all that matters. And with lots of money on the line, it may become more popular for people to quit their jobs to play Starcraft and close the gap between Koreans completely.
I actually see any form of discrimination against nationality (like only letting 5 Koreans in or none at all) as completely ridiculous. Imagine if the Olympics disallowed African nations from competing in track activities and banned Russia and Canada from hockey.
May as well ban Brazil and Spain from the World Cup too seeing as they're pretty good.
EPT
