NASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 19

Clare

United States372 Posts

March 15 2011 23:26 GMT

#361

On March 16 2011 08:24 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't understand how you can say I'm being racist when every point I've made has simply been due to practicality and entertainment rather than race.

That's subjective though. Sure, you might not feel connected to the Koreans, but some people might.

Pokebunny

United States10654 Posts

March 15 2011 23:27 GMT

#362

On March 16 2011 08:26 Clare wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's subjective though. Sure, you might not feel connected to the Koreans, but some people might.

I completely agree that my opinion is subjective, however I don't think it's fair to say my points are based entirely on the race of the player. I'm merely expressing what I would like to see as a spectator.

hmunkey

United Kingdom1973 Posts

March 15 2011 23:27 GMT

#363

On March 16 2011 08:26 Skillz_Man wrote:
I think it needs to be a non-korean tourney.

The only Analogy I can think of is: Nobody wants to watch a Grizzly Bear fight in UFC. It's about being able to relate to the players for most viewers, unlike the hardcore ones here at Teamliquid. Watching some korean guys play who don't even speak english isn't interesting to most. And that's why I think maybe have a limit of 5 koreans... But I think no koreans would be even better.

People drastically overestimate the gab between NA/EU and Korea. All of them bring great games to the table and in the end it's all that matters. And with lots of money on the line, it may become more popular for people to quit their jobs to play Starcraft and close the gap between Koreans completely.

You said people overestimate the gap right after saying Koreans are like Grizzly Bears and NA/EE are getting eaten alive by them.

Either you're horribly confused or logic isn't a strong point of yours.

Jayrod

1820 Posts

March 15 2011 23:28 GMT

#364

On March 16 2011 08:24 dacthehork wrote:

Show nested quote +

How about TSL 2 rules

if you live in North America (maybe europe) you can play in NASL

listen GSL isn't close to being "not exclusionary". It has at least a round trip flight ticket, food, etc cost along with a very hard road to even get into Code S if you are good enough.

There is no way GSL is open to every NA player like people want NASL to invite 1/2 koreans.

This is SC2 man, who cares about TSL rules that wasnt even an event that I listed in my post. GSL is only restricted by an individuals means to physically get there. That's not their problem. I dont think Code S would look much different even if it was completely done online. The best players are in Korea right now.

TheBJ

Bulgaria906 Posts

March 15 2011 23:28 GMT

#365

Embarrassing thread , people who are good enough and have the will to join / play in any international league should be able to have the chance to qualify no matter the external factors. I mean seriously imagine how much would you be crying if foreigners weren't an option in the GSL.

So because koreans are better now ( which everyone said wont happen , before we got to this point ) they should be denied participation? Only reason they are better is because they work much harder than anyone else ( or most ). So guess what pokebunny , people who work harder get rewarded , thats life. NASL isnt a North American sc league only , it called NA because it takes place in NA. If you want to ban koreans from it go ahead and ban federed from the us open as well. I really think this is an embarrassing thread for this community as a whole , and I strongly suggest for the mods to get rid of it right now , because personally i would feel ashamed if this thread got to the korean community.

hmunkey

United Kingdom1973 Posts

March 15 2011 23:28 GMT

#366

On March 16 2011 08:27 Pokebunny wrote:

Show nested quote +

No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL.

Don't lie.

Rekrul

Korea (South)17174 Posts

March 15 2011 23:28 GMT

#367

And all the white nerds were thinking they could compete with the koreans when SC2 came out...

then they realized they couldn't

so let's just have segregated tournaments so we don't have to play them!!!!

ultramafia

221 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#368

On March 16 2011 08:22 Pokebunny wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 16 2011 08:04 ch33psh33p wrote:

On March 16 2011 08:03 SexyHyung wrote:
Listening to Pokebunny, at first I thought he was trolling, but I guess this is what happens when you let little kids post whatever they want without supervision. I was insulted by many things that he said.

First of all, he stated somewhere that korean players are only in this for the money. Let's not be naive and pretend that money isn't a factor in this, but to blatantly accuse every single korean player of being a money grubbing ho is just ridiculous. I'm sure that pokebunny is too young to know, but some people have other motivations to play starcraft, such as they find it fun, they love to play starcraft, and they want to be known, they want to show some great games to their fans, and they want to play against some good foreigners and have some great games. People don't become professional starcraft gamers just for the money.

Something that just comes to mind for example is a video I recently saw of Artosis at the 2005 WCG. He said that he just quit whatever job he was doing and spend a few months focusing solely on getting better, and that it was the highlight of his year. That was how dedicated he was and how much he loved the game. Are you going to accuse him of moving to korea and becoming a paid caster just because he's greedy and hes in it for the money?

Pokebunny also said that julyzerg was being fake, and not into whatever just because his english wasn't that great.

Are you serious? Do you honestly expect people who probably studied some korean in highschool to be able to freely speak english? Yah, maybe they've seen titanic, but that's not enough to make you fluent. And you're not even referring to anybody else. Have you heard Moman? I don't even know half the shit he's saying. It's not as if I don't get the subtle reference here is that you don't like english with non-white accents. No matter how racist you don't think you are, it really makes me wonder. All you hear is probably ching chong ling long ting tong, but i can understand them alot more clearly than 90% of the european player videos. I'm not even going to mention some others, like QXC, who doesn't even have sound in his.

If pokebunny did really say those things, then he really isn't mature enough to be in ANY league at this point.

It's a gross exaggeration.

Unfortunately its exactly how i read your comments and posts. You stated you find GSL boring and would much rather watch MLG, from that alone you will find yourself in the vast minority. And proclaiming that your arguments have nothing to do with being a player are so contradictory of your signature asking for NASL votes.

vileChAnCe

Canada525 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#369

Wowowow So basically the nasl is going for drama and entertainment instead of actual skill.

Your setting it up to be like pro wrestling a bunch of no talent hacks getting paid lucrative amounts, where as GSL could be akin to MMA. I see absolutely nothing wrong with inviting 5 of the best it sets the bar high and truly great players don't just play for money.

Pokebunny

United States10654 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#370

On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm not lying. I'd much rather watch 50 EU/NA players. I watch every IEM and MLG and maybe 3 GSL games a season max.

Looky

United States1608 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#371

i just hate the whole nasl format. like what are they basing the invites off of? it should be the best players. they say are basing it off "achievements"- xeris but you know incontrol is gonna be in it. love the guy but he hasnt achieve anything in sc2.

also their are way too many restrictions. restrictions will not grow the sport. really only 5 koreans allowed? why? so we north americans can feel better about our selves?

i dont like the fact that there our team restrictions and "no team kill". i thought this was a individual
league but i dont understand this concept at all.

00Visor

4337 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#372

there should be better poll options
there`s a big difference between "very few foreigners" and "5 koreans".

marconi

Croatia220 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#373

You people fail to realise that a Korean-only league is not marketable in the USA, imagine if their league in baseball or basketball is full of Korean players?

Maybe the players who will compete in the NASL are not the best players in the world, but given time, they could be because of marketing-money.

dacthehork

United States2000 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#374

I think if you just look at the applications

enough NA/EU players applied to cut korean spots to like 3-4 max imo. I want to see dignitas, EG, Fnatic, etc. I don't want to see July vs Ace, I want to see Idra vs Painuser. They have enough tournaments, GSL is in korea and very hard for any foreigner to justify attending.

ccHaZaRd

Canada1024 Posts

March 15 2011 23:29 GMT

#375

This is a STAR league isn't it?

Invite the best and it will only make us strive to become the best!

Pokebunny

United States10654 Posts

March 15 2011 23:30 GMT

#376

On March 16 2011 08:29 ultramafia wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 16 2011 08:22 Pokebunny wrote:

On March 16 2011 08:04 ch33psh33p wrote:

If pokebunny did really say those things, then he really isn't mature enough to be in ANY league at this point.

It's a gross exaggeration.

Can you not separate me as a player and spectator? I've specifically stated all my opinions expressed are of myself as a spectator. I was a spectator for years.

I_Love_Bacon

United States5765 Posts

March 15 2011 23:30 GMT

#377

On March 16 2011 08:23 ch33psh33p wrote:

Show nested quote +

This point needs to be highlighted.

IT IS SO MUCH EASIER, for foreigners to get into the GSL than a typical top 200 ladder Korean.

Except the requirement is to qualify for code A and then hope to do well in Code S over more than a month in order to make it worth your time monetarily to stay. The NASL might have time commitments because of the amount of games you have to play, but the final lan is only a week (or did they say weekend?) and they have a travel stipend (right? I seemed to recall that) and on top of that, if you make the lan you're already in the money, so you're not just getting a big fast $0 for your effort. The actual commitment in those regards is much less. Because of that, they have to encourage foreigners to try because it's already a gigantic leap just to give it a shot.

Also, anybody accusing Pokebunny of being racist is an idiot. Straight up.

Phyxx

Denmark681 Posts

March 15 2011 23:30 GMT

#378

Would like to see the best the different regions have to offer. So that would be top 10/15 from Korea, Europe and America. A tournament without the best Koreans would be much less appealing for me at least, and would probably discourage me from buying any premium service. Not allowing Koreans in would be a huge mistake for a tournament this ambitious in my opinion.

Tiax;mous

669 Posts

March 15 2011 23:30 GMT

#379

On March 16 2011 08:16 Tyree wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you have to face Cruncher, you will prepare 4-5 hours or whatever your schedule is and hope to win

If you have to face MC, you will pray to Jesus that he dosent totally humilate you and stomp you, thus practicing 12+ hours a day just not to look like a complete punk.

This helps foreigners as it forces them to practice more, growing their talents and even giving them a chance to head to GSL and compete.

(note my post isent about flaming Cruncher or anyone, i think my point is pretty clear as to what i really mean)

This works both ways , I don't think it's a shame to get stomped by MC / MVP / Nestea at this moment and knowing that you need a miracle to beat them in a series ( and tournament in general ) , lots of US/EU player will loose interest in NASL. I believe people will practice way harder if they have a chance to win. Without NASL , foreigners are stuck with 50 Dollar tournaments which hardly encourages gamers.

I say don't invite Code S , anyone in Code A or below should be fine.

PHedemark

Denmark37 Posts

March 15 2011 23:30 GMT

#380

I don't know whether to cry or laugh. Maybe I should cry now and laugh later as Ice Cube would have done.

What few people in this thread actually grasp, is that the NASL is a typical North American project. They want the best players in the world, and possibly also the biggest names in the world. But not on the expense of their North American superstars.

Now you'll all ask "why?"

That question is actually pretty simple to answer. Because of the inheritance of the company behind the league, the projected audience and the probable business model for the league.

The company is American. The casters are American. The format is (without generalizing too much) American. And the targeted audience is American. Consequently the whole damn thing will fail if there amongst the biggest stars (and probable winners) aren't a lot of Americans. And let's face it, if the NASL invites 15 Koreans, 15 Europeans, 5 SEA/Whatever and 15 Americans, there won't be more than two to three NA based players who can realistically be gunning for the title.

This aint an American project you dumbass, this is International *raaaage*

It might not be the NFL of Starcraft II, but there are several pointers to why this league is based more on starpower amongst fans and media, than on anything else.

- The qualification method
Going away from qualifications; initial league play on different continents like the IEM or weekly cups like TSL, just screams that this is a league where the organizers wants to handpick the attendants. They don't want the best gamers, or the most consistent gamers, or gamers from different areas of the world - they want the right gamers (atleast the right gamers in their minds), that support their cause the right way.

- The voting
Popularity contests. Great, who can get the biggest following. Will avilo get into the NASL because he can become the anti-hero of TL.net with semi-dodgy quotes? Is he in the top 50 in the US? Maybe. Is he top 50 in the US and Europe combined? Hardly. Does he have +20k votes on him in the NASL vote? Definitely.

- The videos
Creating good television is impossible without good actors. Or said in another way; the gladiator fights in the old Rome would be friggin retarded if they were all a bunch of pussies throwing away their weapons the moment they stepped in the arena. For good television and good shows, you need personalities that cater to that. Looks, style, media handling and a good portion of confidence. We all want more FBH-type players because they make for great shows. The application videos is just one of the ways to build up personalities and for the NASL to gauge the people applying.

- The [fan] favourites
I could pick on avilo again, but he's had enough heat already. I could pick on Destiny too, but I like his stream too much. Instead I'll turn to Grubby. And hands down, I have worked with this guy before and I respect everything he does immensely. The hard facts are however that he's not in the top50 in the world right now. Possibly he's not even in the top 50 in Europe (I have no doubts that he'll be top10 in EU once he solely focus on SC2). But he launched his stream less than a week ago and has had half a million views on his JTV-channel. That's the same amount as Idra has had in two months. I'm not starstruck, but Manuel can litteraly move the entire European community to the NASL-streams. And he has a big Asian following too.

So the dilemma is - do you take Grubby in or do you leave him out? I'm willing to lay $100 on Grubby going in the league against anybody but Xeris and Incontrol pretty much. He's just too damn big to not take in. Although he's taking a spot from someone who's better than him.

- The vision
Getting on TV. Maybe not straight off the bat, but this is a concept that could be transferred pretty easy. This is amongst other things why it is so damn important for them to have a schedule that actually holds - to show they are professional enough to make this run for a running production.

Conclusion
All of these points just leads to the conclusion (atleast with the current information available), that the NASL isn't about creating the league with the best players in the world. Hell, the GSL wasn't (and still isn't) about that. The GSL is catering heavily to its home market and secondarily to the markets overseas. In the same way the NASL will probably try to cater to the North American market - secondarily to the European and Asian market - because that's where they want to break through. This is not $400,000 spent on improving the SC2 community in NA. This is $400,000 spent trying to create a dominant position in an evolving market which probably has the best chance to be the new "poker" at the moment. The money invested in the NASL is not for the North Americans, nor is it for the SC2 players. It is money meant to create a platform from where more money can be earned.

Doing that means that you have to cut corners, and the players are one of the places where it is obvious they will do it. Without American title contenders or champions, there will be slim to zero chances of this breaking through in any way.

TL;DR give me the cliffnotes
+ Show Spoiler +

The NASL will choose players based on their popularity, and the fact that the NA pool of invited players should still be in contention for each championship.

Arguments?!! You wanted the cliffnotes!

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NASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 19

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