EPTPokebunny seemed to simply be afraid he would lose, which makes sense. However, that doesn't mean I (and others) want to watch a league of terrible players like him (compared to Koreans) competing when there are plenty of random $50 tourneys every weekend for people of that level. NASL is a legitimate tourney with a large prize pool and the skill should correspond do that.
NASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 17
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
Pokebunny seemed to simply be afraid he would lose, which makes sense. However, that doesn't mean I (and others) want to watch a league of terrible players like him (compared to Koreans) competing when there are plenty of random $50 tourneys every weekend for people of that level. NASL is a legitimate tourney with a large prize pool and the skill should correspond do that. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:04 Peas wrote: All this talk of inviting the best of the best, simply for the sake of having the best compete in the NASL makes me want to puke. If that is the argument you want to make, then you'd have to agree to an almost strictly Korean NASL...now... how ridiculous does that sound? So little confidence in the foreign community makes me sad. :-( I think, if they really dedicate themselves to it, there are plenty of non-koreans who need not fear the competition. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
Invite the best or don't heavily restrict it. I'm pretty sure that some Koreans won't even want to come because of flying between GSL and NASL. | ||
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Hrrrrm
United States2081 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:00 N3rV[Green] wrote: Since when did the Starcraft community get so demanding and hostile? What happened to the love of the game, and just being glad that tournaments actually exist? I am just very very confused as to where all this heated debate of KR vs the world came from....From the beginning, the NASL has said that they want to bring the best players from ALL OVER THE WORLD to compete in a North American BASED league. To me, that's a pretty clear statement that no region will be favored, and the "NA" from "NASL" comes more from the home base location of the organization than anything else. I'm all for Koreans playing in the league, but just saying without much in the way of proof that only players that play in the GSL are the top players in the world is just stupid. Tyler just took out Jinro at PAX 3-1, he's never gonna touch the GSL. Is Tyler not a "top player"? BitByBitPrime was in the GSL, he even won games. Is he a "top player"? Seriously people that call this place home, stop for a second, and really think about wtf it is you're arguing about. Honestly it's all pretty silly. I want good players from all over the fucking place, smashing eachother over the head in the virtual arena known as starcraft 2. I want all nationalities, battling it out, seeing who really is on top. 45 Koreans and "huk idra jinro ect" is called the GSL. We already have that tournament. NASL is a different tournament. You'd have a point until it was discovered that Xeris and Co. made the effort of contacting all the major NA and EU teams but, not a single Korean team. That's really when the shit hit the fan of Korean exclusion. It wasn't until people went batshit(myself included) in the App thread that he then made the effort in contacting the Korean teams. So no they weren't really interested in the "BEST PLAYERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD" or not the very first people you'd contact are the Korean teams. | ||
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Zechs
United Kingdom321 Posts
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hypno_toad
United States156 Posts
NASL should be foreigner heavy!!! that doesnt mean there should be no korean invites, just make 5-10 of them (more towards 5 though) | ||
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Asshat
593 Posts
On March 16 2011 07:30 apalemorning wrote: its a north american star league. do we let cfl football teams play in the NFL? No, but you let foreigners play in the NFL (although very rare there are a couple of Europeans/Africans in the NFL), and they are prominent in MLB, NBA and NHL. | ||
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RivalryRedux
United States173 Posts
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:09 Gentso wrote: This tournament would be pointless without Koreans. We already have tournaments like MLG that is Western only, and they're ok. But this is a Star League, which should represent the best and most entertaining games. The best are obviously Koreans. And for me personally, the most entertaining games for me are the foreigners vs Koreans. I'd be disappointed if there isn't a healthy number of Koreans in this tournament. I think the foreign scene owes it to them. QFT. MLG is ok. GSL is fucking awesome. If i had to pick between another GSL and another MLG, i wouldn't think twice. However, I don't because I can have better, a league with the best foreigners and the best koreans. If that means that there are 35 koreans chilling in NASL, thats fine with me. | ||
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Peas
Canada102 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:04 Peas wrote: All this talk of inviting the best of the best, simply for the sake of having the best compete in the NASL makes me want to puke. If that is the argument you want to make, then you'd have to agree to an almost strictly Korean NASL...now... how ridiculous does that sound? Some people mention the quest for global parity in SC2. Letting koreans dominate our home grown tournaments is NOT THE WAY to achieve this. The only way, and I repeat, the only way to level the playing field is to initiate and facilitate grassroots movements. The NASL is an example of this, and it would serve to undermine the quest for parity to allow koreans (certainly in unlimited numbers, i.e. the best of the best) to, in a word, dominate such initiatives. Some mention (or at least imply by what they say) that parity can only be achieved by forcing koreans to compete with and beside NA/EUR players. No, No, No. That is entirely backwards, that is the "end state", the "goal", the desired culmination of the grassroots movements hitherto mentioned. We need to build an infrastracture that supports NA/EUR SC2 players as they are in Korea, and that enables them to practice as they do in Korea. Only then does it make sense to attempt to homogenize the landscape. Allowing a few koreans into the NASL for flavour, or to inject a bit more high level talent is fine by me. That said, I believe the NASL should be primarily for NA/EUR players BECAUSE I believe this tournament is for altering the very foundation of the foreigner (ugh i hate that term) scene, and for creating the infrastructure that would ultimately enable parity within the global SC2 community. qft | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
So in other words you want the worst Korean pro players to compete, and even then only a few of them. Oh please, grow up and either practice more or stop. It really bothers me that you're basically disallowing good Korean players from competing simply because you know they would crush you. Go play in the Go4SC2 or Gosucoaching tourneys instead. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
I think people take this Korean advantage out of proportion in SCII. It is simply the amount of time they put into the game. If foreigners put the same amount of time, they will have a chance. Just sounds like excuses to me. 'If's' are nice, eh? One community is better than the other, if the other community isn't up to par then maybe they should put the time required. On the bright side, I do see some initiative being started with certain peoples making team houses and such. | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:13 RivalryRedux wrote: I'm sort of in the dark as to why people think letting tons of Koreans in the tournament will help foreign teams grow. Any foreign teams planning to make houses would lose tons of equity if Koreans hold most of the league spots. If you have to face Cruncher, you will prepare 4-5 hours or whatever your schedule is and hope to win If you have to face MC, you will pray to Jesus that he dosent totally humilate you and stomp you, thus practicing 12+ hours a day just not to look like a complete punk. This helps foreigners as it forces them to practice more, growing their talents and even giving them a chance to head to GSL and compete. (note my post isent about flaming Cruncher or anyone, i think my point is pretty clear as to what i really mean) | ||
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pandaminion
United States270 Posts
Additionally, since the GSLs became so popular, I feel that Korean names are becoming more and more common in the SC2 proscene. As someone planning on attending NASL in July, and would love to get any pro gamer's autograph, Korean or not :D | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
I honestly hope NASL sides with the good players. I want a tournament of skill. | ||
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HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
Really My preference is to invite the best, for foreigners to improve and stand a chance against the best, don't they have to play the best? If not, invite no-one from Korea. Make it a NA/EU league, with just second tier Koreans it will turn into one of the joke tourneys of BW with really high price pools, the best foreigners and a couple of B-teamers from Korea sweeping the money and killing the interest. WCG with top Koreans was at least fun to watch and the difference between top Koreans and Foreigners isn't nearly as big in SC2 as BW. | ||
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
On March 16 2011 06:47 seaofsaturn wrote: Just do the equivalent that GSL does... invite a few. Why would you want more Koreans than North Americans playing in a North American League? This league has already shown that North Americans are willing to live together in order to train and get better, so its just a matter of time before the gap closes. The GSL has qualifiers that ANYONE can compete in.... like some1 said already, u should be inviting the same amount of korean players as european players (if not more korean players since they are more skilled). and i seem to recall awhile back that many ppl were claiming enthusiastically that foreign players could hold up to korean players. this is the time to put ur money where ur mouth is. (maybe that was during beta lol) | ||
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:16 Tyree wrote: If you have to face Cruncher, you will prepare 4-5 hours or whatever your schedule is and hope to win If you have to face MC, you will pray to Jesus that he dosent totally humilate you and stomp you, thus practicing 12+ hours a day just not to look like a complete punk. This helps foreigners as it forces them to practice more, growing their talents and even giving them a chance to head to GSL and compete. (note my post isent about flaming Cruncher or anyone, i think my point is pretty clear as to what i really mean) Ya I have been saying this as well... so I obviously agree. You also brought up a good point that if the NA players do have to work harder and eventually show results against Koreans, they may more willingly be invited to play in the Korean tournaments, since the GSL has been trying to make their competition more of a global event. I don't want to argue about how it could be more global than it is... of course it could if they spent more money, but the point is it seems that if a NA player is producing amazing results time and time again, they will reach out to them and possibly invite them to a world championship (or whatever that event that is coming up soon is called). | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:16 Gentso wrote: Just sounds like excuses to me. 'If's' are nice, eh? One community is better than the other, if the other community isn't up to par then maybe they should put the time required. On the bright side, I do see some initiative being started with certain peoples making team houses and such. On March 16 2011 08:05 Baffels wrote: Yes, yes, I understand the point of "we don't want SC2 to go the same way as BW". Well first off its not 1997 anymore. It took less than a month for the GSL to start up. I don't know the history of professional BW from start to finish but, it took longer than a month for paid, sponsored tournaments to start up. Secondly, I can't accept your argument because the top 5 placers in IEM trained and practiced like the Korean winners. All I read after IEM is how crazy Korean practice times and schedules are, well its paying off. Lastly, there is no reason why teams from NA and Europe can't do this. Yes in Korea progaming "may be more accepted" than in the US but, if your like Morrow you practice 12 hours a day because you love the game and want to make a living at it. Refer to any of the sports analogies in this thread to understand the effort it took to get this far. Monetary reimbursement is what was/is needed. The Koreans had a large tournament, sponsorships, and other ways to legitimately make a living while playing. Foreigners didn't, and this is now the chance to make that living. The Europeans and Americans can compete with the best Koreans under the right circumstances. There is no genetic factor that makes them better, only the drive and opportunity to play professionally. The key part being opportunity. Do you think Jinro, Idra, or HuK are just somehow naturally more talented at SC2 than other foreigners? Of course not, they simply had the opportunity to play professionally. That is what the NASL might be able to offer. Look at the thread about Drewbie, TT1, and Catz getting a place to essentially play together. That is what we want to see. To be able to dedicate yourself to the game and the opportunity it provides you is how the foreigner scene stays competitive with Koreans. However, if we simply invited 25 Koreans because they're better now, these opportunities would greatly limit the foreigner's chances and might cause them to fizzle out, rather than thrive. Nobody knows the right answer as to whether it's better either way in terms of growing the NA/EU scene, but it's my feeling that exclusionary is probably better for the time being. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
What makes GSL so much better than literally all other tournaments and leagues is the merciless qualifications and the unforgiving nature of going out in the earlier rounds. This past season we had 3 of the absolute best players in the world in danger of dropping down a tier. That stuff excites me and makes the games feel more epic. If you don't make it skill based in some way you might have great back story and all that bullshit but I would much rather have epic games with alot on the line then knowing im watching 2 people that dont belong to be there duke it out. | ||
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