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On March 16 2011 07:32 Gatsbi wrote:
If NA/EU don't want to practice as hard as Koreans, they don't deserve to win the big money, it's as simple as that. If you want to turn the NASL into a popularity contest, go ahead, but then you can't call the people who win prize money "top players" because you didn't even give him the chance to compete against a majority of Koreans who would probably beat them if given the chance.
If you really want to be the best at SC, then BE the best. Don't bitch that Koreans are going to own you. Look at what Jinro did, he wanted to be the best he could, so he trained liked a Korean and he got to the Ro4 2 seasons in a row. Instead of crying, start practicing NA/EU. Time to step you game up. If NA/EU players were on average as good as Koreans, this wouldn't even be an issue, so stop whining and start PLAYING 12 hours a day like they do.
To reiterate on my post above, if US/EU players all of a sudden had to train against the best Koreans, this would make them practice 100x harder and want the wins so much more. This is how you would grow esports in the west, not by sheltering the west from the rest of the gaming world.
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Growing e-sports in the West doesn't mean you need mostly Western players from the get-go - it means you grow the fan-base by showing the best players, and eventually it will hopefully be more balanced between player regions.
Also, giving Koreans free reign exposes more fans to the Korean scene, BW, etc, which can only be a good thing. Which will get NA a bigger player base eventually, etc.
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On March 16 2011 07:38 polarity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 07 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 07:27 polarity wrote:
And here I thought NASL was meant to grow esports in the west. Somehow I don't see how it will be much different than GSL if 45 koreans and 5 foreigners will be competing. I don't think anyone arguing for the inclusion of more Koreans actually expects the numbers to come out 45 KR : 5 others. I think most people just don't like the notion of arbitrarily capping it at some low number like 5. If the logic is: include the best of the best I would be surprised to be seeing 5 foreigners.
Well sure, but you can take every argument to the point of absurdity. You can also take the "it's the North American Starleague" argument to say that we shouldn't have any Europeans in the tournament as well.
Like I said in a later post, participating in the NASL will be a large time commitment to anyone also competing in the GSL, especially regarding their sleep schedule. You're not going to get everyone in code S and A to apply for this league. I don't think it's near the point where people need to be worried about it being overrun with 45 Koreans.
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I also agree that the cap is much too low, there does need to be some sort of limit, but just for variety sake not because of "Korean domination". Why not like 20 or something,? People really need to get past the Korea vs The World mentality if SC2 will grow as an E-sport.
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having all the top koreans come and potentially stomp every foreigner wont help grow the foreign scene at all imo. Will be like sc1
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I'll just say if Koreans aren't included NASL will just be MLG with a larger prize pool.
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I want good games. Period.
Americans who can't make it in the NFL play in the CFL, Canadians who make it to the NFL don't play in the CFL.
Seriously, c'mon man if your not going to invite these people why dont you just give yourself the prize money now?(EG)
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On March 16 2011 07:42 JustPassingBy wrote:
I'd rather say it like this:
Moon said once "Korean own white dudes" and now with the NASL is the time to prove him wrong. Invite the best, let them train for it incredibly hard, and we'll see. :-)
we are gonna see it very fast with the TSL 3, and i wouldnt bet on a "White dudes"to win it.
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Looking at the poll results so far, it seems that the NASL would garner much less interest if Koreans were excluded. Sorry to those of you who say you relate better to Americans/Europeans, but you're in the minority.
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Korea is the leveling rule when it comes to sc2 and every professional gamer who wants to claim a championship should measure him/herself with it.
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On March 16 2011 07:46 Baffels wrote:
I want good games. Period.
Americans who can't make it in the NFL play in the CFL, Canadians who make it to the NFL don't play in the CFL.
Seriously, c'mon man if your not going to invite these people why dont you just give yourself the prize money now?(EG)
Probably because TeamLiquid line up is better overall?
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On March 16 2011 07:43 Raisauce wrote:
I just want to ask all these people wanting the "best of the best", did you enjoy TSL1 and 2? Because they sure as hell didn't have the "best of the best" bw players, yet they turned out to be amazing tournaments.
It was never the intention to have the best though. Nazgul made a post about this, that you shouldn't even compare the TSL1/2 to this. It's a new scene with no limitations, and a game where the mechanics are at a level where foreigners CAN realistically compete if they work hard. BW already had a long established scene with OSL/MSL as the best of the best tournaments.
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On March 16 2011 07:44 Philip2110 wrote:
having all the top koreans come and potentially stomp every foreigner wont help grow the foreign scene at all imo. Will be like sc1
The only time foreigners and koreans played together was pretty much WCG and Blizzcon (?). And I think foreigners for the most part enjoyed those games and when a foreigner won (White-ra v Boxer, Draco v Midas), those were insanely hype.
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On March 16 2011 07:46 Baffels wrote:
I want good games. Period.
Americans who can't make it in the NFL play in the CFL, Canadians who make it to the NFL don't play in the CFL.
Seriously, c'mon man if your not going to invite these people why dont you just give yourself the prize money now?(EG)
LOOOOOOL. fucking true and hilariously funny.
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the stated aims of the nasl, while having the biggest names in esports, was to grow the scene in the west. now to me, to accomplish this they need 2 things
1. the biggest possible audience, this is what the sponsors want to see, and they are the ones signing the cheques that keep the league going
2. the best players possible, this means they can create (super)stars, a topic brought up at PAX, this is important for many reasons in terms of popularity and stuff that take a long time to go into, but suffice to say they have to be able to say they have some of the best players in the world.
when you consider that 'most' of the current best are in korea these 2 goals are a little at odds, and that seems to be a big issue here. to have the very best league, an overly large percentage would be korean, which kinda crushes the huge global audience goal to an extent (everyone loves to chear for their home team). i think if the nasl takes off though, we could see more legitimate pro houses in the west training people to be as good as the koreans, so keeping a decent number of white guys as ace put it, in the tourney will allow them to grow into their full potential.
so the best way to mix it up would be to invite roughly 30% from each continent and see where that leaves them, the last 10% either SEA server players, or just any big names that apply. this allows the global audience the league needs to survive along with a legitimate claim to being the top league in the world, which is also important. then after a few seasons of new qualifiers and hopefully pro house trained white guys the issue will solve itself
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On March 16 2011 07:44 Philip2110 wrote:
having all the top koreans come and potentially stomp every foreigner wont help grow the foreign scene at all imo. Will be like sc1
things aren't that cut and dry. you can weave a drama story in there even in that scenario.
Its not even that likely-- question, how many 'foreigners' have attempted to qualify for GSL? What percentage of those made it into S class? Ro16? Do the same for koreans.
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On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Show nested quote +Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all failed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise.
If NASL doesnt let the top koreans play, ESPECIALLY when they are getting a lot of votes, then the tournament is a fluke. a joke. NASL will just be another MLG. hopefully they will get smart and listen to the viewers.
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How would we feel as a foreigner community if next season GSL announced that no foreigners were allowed to compete anymore in GSL?
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Pretty sad to see people think they want to compete just for the $.
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Without having the best players in the world (regardless of nationality), your tournament loses legitimacy. If the NASL is seriously going to put a hard cap on players because they happen to be from a certain nation or because they're too good, the NASL will just be a second rate tournament for foreigners who couldn't make it in the GSL. If that's the kind of image that they're going for, then by all means, cap the number of Koreans that are invited or allowed to play. Otherwise, if they seriously want to be a tournament featuring the best of the best, nationality should really be taken out of the equation altogether.
I don't get all this talk about protectionism. What exactly are you trying to protect? If the GSL allows any foreigners willing to go to Korea to have a shot, why shouldn't the NASL do the same? Even if they did occupy over half the player pool, so long as that was a reflection of skill, what's the problem with that? Do you feel that NA and EU players somehow need to be protected because of some sort of inferiority? It's not like being born in Korea somehow makes you a superior Starcraft player. If they are more skilled as a group, it's because they've worked hard, built a good system and earned it. If anything, putting them up against foreign competition should only encourage foreign players to work even harder, making their own scene stronger as a whole.
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EPT
